School Uniforms

[Bern]

We can't use the Israeli model because assh**es like you will claim we're profiling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your time of the month?

[Bern]

Doesn't everyone who has a job with some level of responsibility have a "uniform" of sorts.  My husband is an engineer and he is expected to wear a WHITE shirt, tie, slacks, shoes, and it's recommended that he keep a jacket in his office for meetings.  My son works at Giants' Stadium - he has several uniforms that he must wear when he goes to work depending upon the function.  When I worked at Shop-Rite (years ago) I had to wear black slacks, white top, and the awful yellow and black smock-jacket.  My brothers (one works in HVAC and one is an electrician) wear  uniforms to work.  Does anyone argue that their personality and creativity are being stunted?  You say the highschool students aren't going to work, but rather to school.  I say, what are we preparing them for if not the work world?  What a wonderful country that the worst problem we have is to worry about what our children will wear to school each day!  Have a great school year!   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does not mean anything.

I've worked in corporations where high level technical people and their managers making 150,000 to 300,000 normally wore dungarees and polo shirts. Some even wore sandals.

If you want your children to emulate highly sucessful very well paid professionals, then don't use a uniform dress code. Uniforms are good for McDonalds, doormen and any other service industry jobs. Maybe the Kearny school system is setting up to train for that career path.

In the downtown financial area you can see dress codes are pretty lax or non-existent. Professionals don't wear uniforms. Most wear polo shirts and dockers. Some wear dungarees and sneakers. If you want to see uniforms look at the doormen and the people who clean the building.

Teens need to learn how to dress decently as expected in good jobs which do not have uniforms.

In one corporation (bank) no one was really bothered by our very lax dress code until we got some Managing Director who thought this is unprofessional. So everyone was expected to dress "corporate". Unfortunately for him, with all his paperwork bs, productivity crashed, even though he doubled staff. He had all these plans but nothing ever came to fruition. And we stopped getting projects out on time.

He lasted two years. Reorganization significantly cut our department. Then we merged with another department with the other department manager getting his position. He moved down into a "project" group given him with no one reporting to him. He left.

Don't assume the person coming out of a buiding wearing dungarees, sneakers and a TAG or Breitling is the mailboy. The watches are real.

[Guest Paul]

Does not mean anything.

I've worked in corporations where high level technical people and their managers making 150,000 to 300,000 normally wore dungarees and polo shirts. Some even wore sandals.

If you want your children to emulate highly sucessful very well paid professionals, then don't use a uniform dress code. Uniforms are good for McDonalds, doormen and any other service industry jobs. Maybe the Kearny school system is setting up to train for that career path. Children need to learn how to dress decently as expected in good jobs which do not have uniforms.

In one corporation (bank) no one was really bothered by our very lax dress code until we got some Managing Director who thought this is unprofessional. So everyone was expected to dress "corporate". Unfortunately for him, with all his paperwork bs, productivity crashed, even though he doubled staff. He had all these plans but nothing ever came to fruition. And we stopped getting projects out on time.

He lasted two years. Reorganization significantly cut our department. Then we merged with another department with the other department manager getting his position. He moved down into a "project" group given him with no one reporting to him. He left.

In the downtown financial area you can see dress codes are is pretty lax or non-existent. Professionals don't wear uniforms. Most wear polo shirt and dockers. Some wear dungarees and sneakers. If you want to see uniforms look at the doormen and the people who clean the building.

Don't assume the person coming out of a buiding wearing dungarees, sneakers and a TAG or Breitling is the mailboy. The watches are real.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bingo. A society whose citizens all look exactly the same is either in trouble or headed for it. That's not the natural state of things, and if it's imposed, there's a problem.

[Guest Guest]

Does not mean anything.

I've worked in corporations where high level technical people and their managers making 150,000 to 300,000 normally wore dungarees and polo shirts. Some even wore sandals.

If you want your children to emulate highly sucessful very well paid professionals, then don't use a uniform dress code. Uniforms are good for McDonalds, doormen and any other service industry jobs. Maybe the Kearny school system is setting up to train for that career path. Children need to learn how to dress decently as expected in good jobs which do not have uniforms.

In one corporation (bank) no one was really bothered by our very lax dress code until we got some Managing Director who thought this is unprofessional. So everyone was expected to dress "corporate". Unfortunately for him, with all his paperwork bs, productivity crashed, even though he doubled staff. He had all these plans but nothing ever came to fruition. And we stopped getting projects out on time.

He lasted two years. Reorganization significantly cut our department. Then we merged with another department with the other department manager getting his position. He moved down into a "project" group given him with no one reporting to him. He left.

In the downtown financial area you can see dress codes are is pretty lax or non-existent. Professionals don't wear uniforms. Most wear polo shirt and dockers. Some wear dungarees and sneakers. If you want to see uniforms look at the doormen and the people who clean the building.

Don't assume the person coming out of a buiding wearing dungarees, sneakers and a TAG or Breitling is the mailboy. The watches are real.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow your a pompous one ain't ya?

A really overpriced arm accessory makes you important to all the little people doesn't it Leona? I don't see many suits here at 20 Broad too much these days. Heck, when I interviewed I had my best pair of "dungarees" on but what really sealed the deal was when I inconspicuously flashed my Patek Philippe Grand Complication Celestial. Let the guy know I was a member of the "Club", wink - wink.

Hey let's take a survey. All the lawyers in the room - how were you dressed the last time you were litigating -anything?

Your a class act "Bern", you didn't like the "style' of the new MD so you sabotaged the bank and debased yourself to do it all because you didn't want to dress "corporate" ? High school kids everywhere should take your lead if they really want to get ahead in this world, huh?

[Bern]

Wow your a pompous one ain't ya? 

A really overpriced arm accessory makes you important to all the little people doesn't it Leona? I don't see many suits here at 20 Broad too much these days.  Heck, when I interviewed I had my best pair of "dungarees" on but what really sealed the deal was when I inconspicuously flashed my Patek Philippe Grand Complication Celestial.  Let the guy know I was a member of the "Club", wink - wink.

Hey let's take a survey.  All the lawyers in the room - how were you dressed the last time you were litigating -anything? 

Your a class act "Bern", you didn't like the "style' of the new MD so you sabotaged the bank and debased yourself to do it all because you didn't want to dress "corporate" ?  High school kids everywhere should take your lead if they really want to get ahead in this world, huh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whenever I get personal insults, I know that I hit a nerve. Doesn’t the truth hurt. Ouch. You don’t work for a uniform supplier, do you?

The MD failed because we were kept in meetings for 7 hours a day – project status meetings, QA meetings, business appraisal meetings, staff meeting and writing reports on the meetings which were then reviewed at the start of every meeting. By the time our meetings and reports were done, very boring mundane work, we were too worn out to do any real new productive work.

Dress codes are good because teens need to learn how to dress decently as expected in jobs which do not have uniforms. A dress code requiring a uniform is not good. The kids are not doorkeepers.

Many who get so adamant for requiring a uniform dress code ignore real issues with the Kearny Schools. The Kearny HS SAT scores are abysmal. You’re paying all that money and the result is sad. 472 and 454 is pretty low but somehow the following year Kearny managed to lower itself to 466 and 450.

Kearny HS SAT Scores

Year 04/05 - Math 472 State Average 519, Reading 454 State Average 501

Year 05/06 - Math 466 State Average 516, Reading 450 State Average 494

So maybe my comment hit it on the head. If education fails, then train for the low skill service industry jobs – Mc Donalds, doormen. Jobs that will always be available and where they don’t care about SAT scores but they do care about uniforms. If this is what you aspire for your children, then uniforms are for you.

Interviewing Kearny graduates for a decent jobs and knowing their public school required uniforms would give some interviewers pause. The perception is that public schools that require uniforms have “issues”. Interviewers would wonder if the Kearny kids are carrying any “baggage” from that school. Uniforms are not needed to meet educational mandates and may actually be a disservice to the graduates.

[Guest Guest]

Does not mean anything.

I've worked in corporations where high level technical people and their managers making 150,000 to 300,000 normally wore dungarees and polo shirts. Some even wore sandals.

If you want your children to emulate highly sucessful very well paid professionals, then don't use a uniform dress code. Uniforms are good for McDonalds, doormen and any other service industry jobs. Maybe the Kearny school system is setting up to train for that career path.

In the downtown financial area you can see dress codes are pretty lax or non-existent. Professionals don't wear uniforms. Most wear polo shirts and dockers. Some wear dungarees and sneakers. If you want to see uniforms look at the doormen and the people who clean the building.

Teens need to learn how to dress decently as expected in good jobs which do not have uniforms.

In one corporation (bank) no one was really bothered by our very lax dress code until we got some Managing Director who thought this is unprofessional. So everyone was expected to dress "corporate". Unfortunately for him, with all his paperwork bs, productivity crashed, even though he doubled staff. He had all these plans but nothing ever came to fruition. And we stopped getting projects out on time.

He lasted two years. Reorganization significantly cut our department. Then we merged with another department with the other department manager getting his position. He moved down into a "project" group given him with no one reporting to him. He left.

Don't assume the person coming out of a buiding wearing dungarees, sneakers and a TAG or Breitling is the mailboy. The watches are real.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't mean a thing? I guess that's why a university in Illinois is requiring the business school students to dress in proper business attire.

[Bern]

** Deleted **

[Bern]

Doesn't mean a thing? I guess that's why a university in Illinois is requiring the business school students to dress in proper business attire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Harvard they're not, eh?

I see this only applies to the marketing students.

They really have a set of unique priorities. And they violated the universities student bill of rights. The marketing department did not know what was in the bill of rights.

Marketing chair Tim Longfellow said faculty members were unaware of the Student Bill of Rights when they wrote the new guidelines, and they've been caught off guard by the backlash. While not official university policy, the bill of rights is to be consulted when making policy changes at Illinois State, according to student leaders.

"We knew there might be some stumbling blocks. Then things got a little bigger than we anticipated," Longfellow said. "As marketers, we maybe should have guessed that better."

Smart bunch.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/c...mepagenews2-utl

But the Illinois business school Marketing Department dress code does not apply to the current Kearny debate. Kearny schools have a dress code. The debate is should Kearny require uniforms. Uniforms are not required by the Illinois Business School Marketing Department dress code.

The business school seem to be very sterile. Soft drinks are not allowed in the 2-year-old building and posters are not allowed on the walls. Flat-screen televisions in the hallways stream business news. Very mundane. I guess they're trying to push our prevalent sterile corporate culture into the kids early. Innovative companies do the opposite. Their dress codes are non-existent or very lax and they give you refrigerators filled with free soft drinks, juices and lots of other goodies. They're the companies with the nice profits.

[Guest Paul]

Doesn't mean a thing? I guess that's why a university in Illinois is requiring the business school students to dress in proper business attire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One university out of an entire country, and even at that only the business school. And from that you expect reasonable people to draw a conclusion?!

How about some more information:

1. Which university?

2. When did the program become effective?

3. What are the tangible and provable results, if any?

4. How do the changes since adoption of the policy compare with what has gone on at similar universities over the same time period?

How about that for starters? Then we'll look and see where we are, and ask whether the same thing might apply to high school students, and why or why not. Then if there's enough reason to go forward some schools may start requiring uniforms --- ah, but wait a minute, some schools have already skipped those steps and tried the uniform policy. So what are the data? I keep hearing from the proponents that the data support uniforms, but I haven't one specific thing to support that claim.

Where's the beef? (Let's see how old the people posting here are.)

[Guest Senior Kearny Resident]

Bayonne High School students will be wearing uniforms when classes begin

today. Finally, a school administration that can think clearly.

[Guest Guest]

One university out of an entire country, and even at that only the business school. And from that you expect reasonable people to draw a conclusion?!

How about some more information:

1. Which university?

2. When did the program become effective?

3. What are the tangible and provable results, if any?

4. How do the changes since adoption of the policy compare with what has gone on at similar universities over the same time period?

How about that for starters? Then we'll look and see where we are, and ask whether the same thing might apply to high school students, and why or why not. Then if there's enough reason to go forward some schools may start requiring uniforms --- ah, but wait a minute, some schools have already skipped those steps and tried the uniform policy. So what are the data? I keep hearing from the proponents that the data support uniforms, but I haven't one specific thing to support that claim.

Where's the beef? (Let's see how old the people posting here are.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The beef is there Paul, you just live so far out of reality that you don’t see it.

1. The parents and students are not cooperating with the dress code.

2. The teachers and administrators shouldn’t have to be the dress code police anyway.

3. The BOE is going to take the subjectivity out of the equation by requiring uniforms. If you can even call polo shirts and khakis a uniform. An argument can be made that it’s just a dress code.

At any rate you and Matt should be happy about the uniforms, it gives you a ready made cause du jour for the new school year. Didn’t your whole class ever have to stay after school because one kid did something wrong? Act like a man for goodness sake. Do you really think the founding fathers started a revolution and wrote the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution so that you could fight about school uniforms and Noah’s Ark. Franklin and Jefferson would laugh at you.

[Guest rick]

This is so pathetic. All of yo have way to much time on your hands. Unless your going to KHS, the niforms dont apply to you, so why don't all of you 30 year olds get back to work. If your not going to be wearing the unoforms, why comment. Unless its on your body, you shouldn't have a say. Uniform voting should be left to the students in question.

[Guest Paul]

The beef is there Paul, you just live so far out of reality that you don’t see it.

1. The parents and students are not cooperating with the dress code.

2. The teachers and administrators shouldn’t have to be the dress code police    anyway. 

3. The BOE is going to take the subjectivity out of the equation by requiring uniforms.  If you can even call polo shirts and khakis a uniform.  An argument can be made that it’s just a dress code.

At any rate you and Matt should be happy about the uniforms, it gives you a ready made cause du jour for the new school year.  Didn’t your whole class ever have to stay after school because one kid did something wrong? Act like a man for goodness sake.  Do you really think the founding fathers started a revolution and wrote the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution so that you could fight about school uniforms and Noah’s Ark.  Franklin and Jefferson would laugh at you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best way to take subjectivity out of the equation is to promulgate a proper dress code. I've volunteered to help do that.

Making an entire group of people "stay after school" for the offense of one or two is something we might do to small children or in the military. As I've said over and over, the values we teach the students and the messages we send to them will stay with them long after they've taken off the uniform. By high school age, I want to be telling the kids that they are old enough to know how to dress properly. Tell them the opposite and they'll prove you right. If they've reached that age, and must be told what color clothes to wear, there's a bigger problem, which uniforms won't solve.

The Founding Fathers didn't start a revolution for the right to throw tea into a harbor either, but I seem to recall something about that. A person only writes what you're writing when he or she doesn't understand how the law works. It works on principles. When the government can dictate to you in small things, it can also dictate to you in big things. It is precisely because the color of clothes you wear is so insignificant, and yet so personal, that the government should not be dictating it to people. Matthew gets that. Obviously you don't. That is why Nat Hentoff wrote in the Village Voice that James Madison, who actually was the primary author of the Constitution, would have been happy to meet Matthew, and would have applauded what he did.

[Guest Guest]

Dress codes are good because teens need to learn how to dress decently as expected in jobs which do not have uniforms. A dress code requiring a uniform is not good. The kids are not doorkeepers.

Many who get so adamant for requiring a uniform dress code ignore real issues with the Kearny Schools. The Kearny HS SAT scores are abysmal. You’re paying all that money and the result is sad. 472 and 454 is pretty low but somehow the following year Kearny managed to lower itself to 466 and 450.

So maybe my comment hit it on the head. If education fails, then train for the low skill service industry jobs – Mc Donalds, doormen. Jobs that will always be available and where they don’t care about SAT scores but they do care about uniforms. If this is what you aspire for your children, then uniforms are for you.

Interviewing Kearny graduates for a decent jobs and knowing their public school required uniforms would give some interviewers pause. The perception is that public schools that require uniforms have “issues”. Interviewers would wonder if the Kearny kids are carrying any “baggage” from that school. Uniforms are not needed to meet educational mandates and may actually be a disservice to the graduates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In response to the above, are you really that blind, arrogant, rigid and clueless?

[Guest guest]

The beef is there Paul, you just live so far out of reality that you don’t see it.

1. The parents and students are not cooperating with the dress code.

2. The teachers and administrators shouldn’t have to be the dress code police    anyway. 

3. The BOE is going to take the subjectivity out of the equation by requiring uniforms.  If you can even call polo shirts and khakis a uniform.  An argument can be made that it’s just a dress code.

At any rate you and Matt should be happy about the uniforms, it gives you a ready made cause du jour for the new school year.  Didn’t your whole class ever have to stay after school because one kid did something wrong? Act like a man for goodness sake.  Do you really think the founding fathers started a revolution and wrote the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution so that you could fight about school uniforms and Noah’s Ark.  Franklin and Jefferson would laugh at you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you a BOE member that you know the uniforms will be worn?

[Guest Guest]

Your time of the month? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The truth hurts.

[Guest Guest]

The best way to take subjectivity out of the equation is to promulgate a proper dress code. I've volunteered to help do that.

Making an entire group of people "stay after school" for the offense of one or two is something we might do to small children or in the military. As I've said over and over, the values we teach the students and the messages we send to them will stay with them long after they've taken off the uniform. By high school age, I want to be telling the kids that they are old enough to know how to dress properly. Tell them the opposite and they'll prove you right. If they've reached that age, and must be told what color clothes to wear, there's a bigger problem, which uniforms won't solve.

The Founding Fathers didn't start a revolution for the right to throw tea into a harbor either, but I seem to recall something about that. A person only writes what you're writing when he or she doesn't understand how the law works. It works on principles. When the government can dictate to you in small things, it can also dictate to you in big things. It is precisely because the color of clothes you wear is so insignificant, and yet so personal, that the government should not be dictating it to people. Matthew gets that. Obviously you don't. That is why Nat Hentoff wrote in the Village Voice that James Madison, who actually was the primary author of the Constitution, would have been happy to meet Matthew, and would have applauded what he did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really are clueless.

[Bern]

This is so pathetic. All of yo have way to much time on your hands. Unless your going to KHS, the niforms dont apply to you, so why don't all of you 30 year olds get back to work. If your not going to be wearing the unoforms, why comment. Unless its on your body, you shouldn't have a say. Uniform voting should be left to the students in question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the uniform question is not being left up to the students. The decision will be made by people who do not have to wear the uniforms. Many decisions that affect students are not left up to students - textbooks, syllabus, teacher/student ratio, physical facilities, phys ed and sport funding ...

The uniform issue applies to everyone. The students, the Bd of ED, the teachers, parents and anyone else who has some interest in civil rights.

I wish the students would comment. We haven't heard from too many students. I wonder what their position is. Will the student government get involved or are they not allowed to comment on "controversial" issues? Do the students care?

[Guest 2smart4u]

Bayonne High School students will be wearing uniforms when classes begin

  today.  Finally, a school administration that can think clearly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I spoke with the principal today, the introduction of uniforms has been successful and overwelmingly accepted by the students. There goes Paul's theory out the window.

[Guest Mr Kotter]

But the uniform question is not being left up to the students. The decision will be made by people who do not have to wear the uniforms. Many decisions that affect students are not left up to students - textbooks, syllabus, teacher/student ratio, physical facilities, phys ed and sport funding ...

The uniform issue applies to everyone. The students, the Bd of ED, the teachers, parents and anyone else who has some interest in civil rights.

I wish the students would comment. We haven't heard from too many students. I wonder what their position is. Will the student government get involved or are they not allowed to comment on "controversial" issues? Do the students care?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That decision should not be left up to the students.

P.S. There is the bait --and the hook--Go For It

[Guest Guest]

Interviewing Kearny graduates for a decent jobs and knowing their public school required uniforms would give some interviewers pause. The perception is that public schools that require uniforms have “issues”. Interviewers would wonder if the Kearny kids are carrying any “baggage” from that school. Uniforms are not needed to meet educational mandates and may actually be a disservice to the graduates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Let me start by saying that obviously KHS is NOT a parochial HS but) I don't think that the students coming out of parochial high schools (who have always worn uniforms) have a problem in their college interviews or in job interviews. So that is just a stupid argument. By the way, you didn't mention how the dress code contributed to the downfall in your department, you just told how you and your coworkers acted out in an immature manner against a legitimate corporate decision.

[Guest Student]

But the uniform question is not being left up to the students. The decision will be made by people who do not have to wear the uniforms. Many decisions that affect students are not left up to students - textbooks, syllabus, teacher/student ratio, physical facilities, phys ed and sport funding ...

The uniform issue applies to everyone. The students, the Bd of ED, the teachers, parents and anyone else who has some interest in civil rights.

I wish the students would comment. We haven't heard from too many students. I wonder what their position is. Will the student government get involved or are they not allowed to comment on "controversial" issues? Do the students care?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes Bern we do care, But our opinions do not matter. The Board of Ed, Teachers, and whoever else will make the decision for us. But yet they tell us to act like Adults! Why should we when what we think does not count?

[Guest Mom]

But the uniform question is not being left up to the students. The decision will be made by people who do not have to wear the uniforms. Many decisions that affect students are not left up to students - textbooks, syllabus, teacher/student ratio, physical facilities, phys ed and sport funding ...

The uniform issue applies to everyone. The students, the Bd of ED, the teachers, parents and anyone else who has some interest in civil rights.

I wish the students would comment. We haven't heard from too many students. I wonder what their position is. Will the student government get involved or are they not allowed to comment on "controversial" issues? Do the students care?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have spoken with several students who are opposed to the uniforms for different reasons. The #1 reason being that they feel comfortable in the clothes they wear and some feel that a uniform will take away from who they are. Unless the teachers and administrators are also forced to wear uniforms, the students shouldn't have to. The BOE needs to address real issues.

[Guest Paul]

I spoke with the principal today, the introduction of uniforms has been successful and overwelmingly accepted by the students.  There goes Paul's theory out the window.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It doesn't matter. The majority of students don't have any more right to tell their fellow students what color clothes to wear than the community does. The question is not and never has been whether students can wear uniforms and successfully get through their school day. The question is and always has been whether this is an appropriate exercise of governmental authority. But then why should 2dim start understanding anything now?

[Guest Paul]

Yes Bern we do care, But our opinions do not matter.  The Board of Ed, Teachers, and whoever else will make the decision for us.  But yet they tell us to act like Adults! Why should we when what we think does not count?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you learn nothing from what Matthew did last year? Your opinions do matter, very much, but not if you sit on your hands and do nothing. If you do nothing and remain silent, then your opinions don't matter. Then you're just whining. To make your opinions matter, you must organize with your fellow students and act. Why do think the Framers wrote the right to petition into the Constitution?

If you want to make a difference, you must take action.