More Defeatocratic Highlights

[Guest Guest]

How did Petraeus obtain the reputation for appearing in the streets of Iraq, then? 

Moreover, Petraeus gained a reputation at MNSTC-I as an effective motivator of Iraqi troops, making many visits to frontline Iraqi units to perform inspections and boost morale, and during his January 2007 Senate testimony, he described both punitive measures he took against Iraqi units that did not live up to expectations and rewards he gave to those units that performed well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus

Since taking command of MNF-I on 10 February 2007, Petraeus has inspected U.S. and Iraqi units all over Iraq, visiting outposts not only in greater Baghdad, but also in Tikrit, Baquba, Ramadi, and as far west as al-Hit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus

Maybe you were absent that day.

Going to inspect a unit behind fortifications while surrounded by a small army is a bit different than going on patrol worrying about roadside bombs or guarding a checkpoint worrying about who's in each approaching car.

The onetime British captives lied about the experience when they reported on their treatment by the Iranians, eh?

1)  The Brits had done nothing wrong.  They were entitled to their position and activity in Iraqi waters.

2)  You probably got your e-mail from a European, not a resident of the Middle East.  Torture is SOP in the Middle East; it's a shock them that it's otherwise for Westerners.  Since they know that many Europeans and many U.S. liberals even consider uncomfortably warm or cool quarters as "torture" and since they know the media is one of the main theaters of war during an insurgency, they play up stuff like that to try to achieve moral equivalency and sap the opposition's will to fight.

3)  The 15 Royal marines and sailors held captive by Iran for 13 days said yesterday that they spent much of that time blindfolded and in isolation.

At one point, they endured what one described as a mock execution. On the second day of their captivity, the British personnel were flown to Tehran and taken to a prison where they were lined up against a wall, hands bound, blankets over their heads.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/c...A5_SE6AMVM.html

A pity your friend apparently didn't pay much attention to what the British sailors reported about their treatment.

Maybe he was busy watching Harry Reid give a press conference or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say I agree with him(I don't)-I pointed out his perception. We have to be aware of these things.

[Guest Autonomous]

This is a brain on Kool-Aid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a Republican who plans to vote for Ron Paul, moron. The fact that you compare anyone who disagrees with the neocons to brainwashed cultists indicates your own brainwashing. America is still conservative-if the morons at the top would run Paul he would defeat anyone the Democrats run just like we did in '94.

[Guest Autonomous]

How did Petraeus obtain the reputation for appearing in the streets of Iraq, then? 

Moreover, Petraeus gained a reputation at MNSTC-I as an effective motivator of Iraqi troops, making many visits to frontline Iraqi units to perform inspections and boost morale, and during his January 2007 Senate testimony, he described both punitive measures he took against Iraqi units that did not live up to expectations and rewards he gave to those units that performed well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus

Since taking command of MNF-I on 10 February 2007, Petraeus has inspected U.S. and Iraqi units all over Iraq, visiting outposts not only in greater Baghdad, but also in Tikrit, Baquba, Ramadi, and as far west as al-Hit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus

Maybe you were absent that day.

Going to inspect a unit behind fortifications while surrounded by a small army is a bit different than going on patrol worrying about roadside bombs or guarding a checkpoint worrying about who's in each approaching car.

The onetime British captives lied about the experience when they reported on their treatment by the Iranians, eh?

1)  The Brits had done nothing wrong.  They were entitled to their position and activity in Iraqi waters.

2)  You probably got your e-mail from a European, not a resident of the Middle East.  Torture is SOP in the Middle East; it's a shock them that it's otherwise for Westerners.  Since they know that many Europeans and many U.S. liberals even consider uncomfortably warm or cool quarters as "torture" and since they know the media is one of the main theaters of war during an insurgency, they play up stuff like that to try to achieve moral equivalency and sap the opposition's will to fight.

3)  The 15 Royal marines and sailors held captive by Iran for 13 days said yesterday that they spent much of that time blindfolded and in isolation.

At one point, they endured what one described as a mock execution. On the second day of their captivity, the British personnel were flown to Tehran and taken to a prison where they were lined up against a wall, hands bound, blankets over their heads.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/c...A5_SE6AMVM.html

A pity your friend apparently didn't pay much attention to what the British sailors reported about their treatment.

Maybe he was busy watching Harry Reid give a press conference or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say I agree with him(I don't)-I pointed out his perception. We have to be aware of these things.

[Strife767]

This is a brain on Kool-Aid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KOTW, you really ought to have/implement some anti-spam policy.

[Guest Guest]

Exactly.  So much for the importance of being in Iraq, since it will just be said that the people in Iraq were trained to follow the chain of command.

Unless, of course, you disagree with the boss, in which case the opinion can be taken seriously.

I don't suppose you see the vacuity of that approach to the argument?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As usual, you write a lot and mean nothing

[Guest Guest]

Exactly.  So much for the importance of being in Iraq, since it will just be said that the people in Iraq were trained to follow the chain of command.

Unless, of course, you disagree with the boss, in which case the opinion can be taken seriously.

I don't suppose you see the vacuity of that approach to the argument?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"the importance of being in Iraq" is an assumption and opinion NOT shared by a majority of Americans. With that FACT in mond the remainder of your post is just so much more pedantic blah, blah, blah.........

[Guest Autonomous]

I would like to ask everyone to look deep into thier hearts and be honest with themselves. Do you really, truly and honestly feel we had the right to invade Iraq and remain there to this day? Or, on the other hand are you simply supporting your party? If you truly feel the we should stay in Iraq no matter what, then that is the way you feel and you should stand by it. If on the other hand you know in your heart that this is a big mistake but you will support your party no matter what then you should be ashamed of yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe that we should have invaded, but since we did we are obliged to restore order. Since Iran is already sending people in at will and Al Qaeda is already there, I'm not sure how much worse it could get if we leave, but any pullout has to be gradual-if things start to get worse, we'll have to go back in. We have to be careful not to recreate post-Soviet occupation Afghanistan-that came back to bite us on the rear big time.

It isn't about party loyalty-although I'm a Republican, I'll vote for Libertarians over neocons until the real conservatives take back the party. It is about responsibility-we broke it, we bought it.

[Guest Guest]

Duh, yeah.

Iraq broke the UN-brokered ceasefire agreement that ended the Gulf War.  That's the agreement that Hussein made under duress to keep from being ousted form power way back when.

After a provisional government was established, the government asked us to remain to assist with security.

How much more right do you think we need?

My party's wavering on the issue.  I wish it weren't so.

Now a question for you:

Does the belief that we have no right to be in Iraq figure prominently in your reasoning for a military pullout?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So it doesn't bother you in the least that we were "sold" this war based on at best faulty and at worst fabricated intelligence? How must the millions of Iraqis who have never done anything to the U.S. feel about us? Do they feel any different than the Pols or the French during WWII? You might think that's an unfair comparison, but then again you're not an Iraqi are you? I'm more than a little disturbed by your smug indifference, nay your righteous indignation regarding those who are still dying today, on both sides , when we could go a long way to stop most of it if we just left. But hey, who cares because we were in the right.Right? Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

[Bryan]

Going to inspect a unit behind fortifications while surrounded by a small army is a bit different than going on patrol worrying about roadside bombs or guarding a checkpoint worrying about who's in each approaching car.

Okay, so now it's going on patrol and manning checkpoints instead of appearing in the streets of Baghdad.

Just let us know when you're finished dragging the goalposts around.

I didn't say I agree with him(I don't)-I pointed out his perception. We have to be aware of these things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do?

I'd say it's your friend's responsibility to educate himself.

I hope you took a moment to correct him.

[Bryan]

"the importance of being in Iraq" is an assumption and opinion NOT shared by a majority of Americans.  With that FACT in mond the remainder of your post is just so much more pedantic blah, blah, blah.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I should point out ...

Sorry.

You seem to have misunderstood rather severely.

I was writing in response to somebody (it couldn't have been you, could it?) who appeared to suggest that experience in Iraq was an important prerequisite for determining a strategy in Iraq ("Amazing how many experts on Iraq have never been there").

That's a great context from which to lecture somebody about being pedantic, isn't it?

[Guest 2smart4u]

I'm a Republican who plans to vote for Ron Paul, moron. The fact that you compare anyone who disagrees with the neocons to brainwashed cultists indicates your own brainwashing. America is still conservative-if the morons at the top would run Paul he would defeat anyone the Democrats run just like we did in '94.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron Paul ?? How do you expect to vote for him, you'll never see his name on a ballot, moron.

[Bern]

The last I heard the US Constitution, despite the Shrub's best efforts, still represents the law of the land.

So maybe YOU should STFU!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Duhh. What does the constitution have to with my comments.

Last I saw free speech applies to non governmental interference. I can tell you to shut upand you can tell me the same. It has nothing do do with the constitution, guest.

[Bern]

Duh, yeah.

Iraq broke the UN-brokered ceasefire agreement that ended the Gulf War.  That's the agreement that Hussein made under duress to keep from being ousted form power way back when.

After a provisional government was established, the government asked us to remain to assist with security.

How much more right do you think we need?

My party's wavering on the issue.  I wish it weren't so.

Now a question for you:

Does the belief that we have no right to be in Iraq figure prominently in your reasoning for a military pullout?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What right? If Saddam violated a UN cease fire, its up to the UN to enforce it. Or are we the UN police?

China and other countries like China love this. We've lost world influence and are using up our resources in Iraq. Whatever we lose they will gladly take.

Make sure your children learn Mandarin. The Chinese are helping. The are sending Chinese tutors to the US to teach Mandarin in public schools. The Chinese teachers are highly motivated. They come for at least one year. In return they will be allowed to have an additional child.

After all, the Chinese believe they are destined to rule all. Having lots Americans fluent with Mandarin will be useful when they have to expand their servant class.

[Bryan]

What right? If Saddam violated a UN cease fire, its up to the UN to enforce it. Or are we the UN police?

Hmmm. Bern not only doesn't read carefully but he simultaneously doesn't know what he's talking about.

Jimmy Carter brokered the food for nuclear power deal that Clinton worked with China in the 1990s.

Carter isn't responsible for enforcing the deal.

"Iraq broke the UN-brokered ceasefire agreement that ended the Gulf War."

The terms of the ceasefire specified that any nation involved in opposition to Iran during the Gulf War was entitled to militarily intervene if the Iraqis broke the agreement.

33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the

Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the

provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and

the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678

(1990);

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/gopher/s91/4

(resolution 678)

2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of

Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as

set forth in paragraph 1 above, the foregoing resolutions, to use all

necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all

subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and

security in the area;

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/gopher/s90/32

So you've gone all this time completely unaware of these facts?

China and other countries like China love this.

They love it if we lose, or if our costs outweigh our gains. China's in a better position if we lose in Iraq. They're cozying up to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela (We import as much or more oil from Venezuela and Nigeria as we do from the Middle East). If we lose Venezuela as a source, we will become more reliant on ME oil.

We've lost world influence and are using up our resources in Iraq. Whatever we lose they will gladly take.

We haven't lost world influence. We will if we lose in Iraq, however.

What resources do you think we're using up in the Middle East?

Make sure your children learn Mandarin. The Chinese are helping. The are sending Chinese tutors to the US to teach Mandarin in public schools. The Chinese teachers are highly motivated. They come for at least one year. In return they will be allowed to have an additional child.

After all, the Chinese believe they are destined to rule all. Having lots Americans fluent with Mandarin will be useful when they have to expand their servant class.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

China's not an immediate threat. They're a major trade partner, and their people are becoming Westernized to some degree through interaction with the West.

If China ever needs to expand its servant class, they can always allow their own people to have more than one child per couple (did you seriously not even think of that?).

Our relationship with China, and the Chinese mindset itself, is complicated. They're not our friends as such, but you shouldn't lose track of Islamic militancy on account of China.

[Guest Autonomous]

Ron Paul ??  How do you expect to vote for him, you'll never see his name on a ballot, moron.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you actually know how our system works? With any luck he'll still be around for the primaries.

[Guest Guest]

Okay, so now it's going on patrol and manning checkpoints instead of appearing in the streets of Baghdad.

Just let us know when you're finished dragging the goalposts around.

The point was he dosn't talk to the man on the street. He's insulated. Which most people probably understood was my original point.

We do?

I'd say it's your friend's responsibility to educate himself.

I hope you took a moment to correct him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right-if people in Iraq misunderstand Americans, it must be their fault. We can just ignore it-surely it could never blowback on us, right?

[Guest Autonomous]

What right? If Saddam violated a UN cease fire, its up to the UN to enforce it. Or are we the UN police?

China and other countries like China love this. We've lost world influence and are using up our resources in Iraq. Whatever we lose they will gladly take.

Make sure your children learn Mandarin. The Chinese are helping. The are sending Chinese tutors to the US to teach Mandarin in public schools. The Chinese teachers are highly motivated. They come for at least one year. In return they will be allowed to have an additional child.

After all, the Chinese believe they are destined to rule all. Having lots Americans fluent with Mandarin will be useful when they have to expand their servant class.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While I don't think it will get that bad, I never realized how involved China was in our economy until I decided to buy only American-made products. It is barely possible-everything from DVDs to socks to pencils is made there these days.

[Guest Autonomous]

You seem to have misunderstood rather severely.

I was writing in response to somebody (it couldn't have been you, could it?) who appeared to suggest that experience in Iraq was an important prerequisite for determining a strategy in Iraq ("Amazing how many experts on Iraq have never been there").

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're stretching. I was responding to Bushwanker, not people who actually have anything to do with formulating strategy in Iraq. Anyone who has been there will tell you that the perception propagated by the American media (both right- AND left-wing versions) is very different from the reality. Go to any military forum and see for yourself.

[Guest BushBacker]

What right? If Saddam violated a UN cease fire, its up to the UN to enforce it. Or are we the UN police?

China and other countries like China love this. We've lost world influence and are using up our resources in Iraq. Whatever we lose they will gladly take.

Make sure your children learn Mandarin. The Chinese are helping. The are sending Chinese tutors to the US to teach Mandarin in public schools. The Chinese teachers are highly motivated. They come for at least one year. In return they will be allowed to have an additional child.

After all, the Chinese believe they are destined to rule all. Having lots Americans fluent with Mandarin will be useful when they have to expand their servant class.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be a defeatocrat. You certainly have that defeatocratic attitude.

[Guest Guest]

You must be a defeatocrat. You certainly have that defeatocratic attitude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And YOU must be an idiot, you certainly have an idiotic attidtude.

[Bern]

While I don't think it will get that bad, I never realized how involved China was in our economy until I decided to buy only American-made products. It is barely possible-everything from DVDs to socks to pencils is made there these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Chinese would like to dominate. Will it get that bad? Only if we allow it.

We are doing our best to enable that. We've outsourced our technological and manufacturing base, and are becoming a debtor nation by importing too much and creating a huge national debt.

As a result large pools of US money are held by foreign countries. So we have these big pools of US currency floating all over the world which they can’t easily spend.

China is a good example. What will they do with the 100’s of billions of US dollars they hold? All our products are too expensive. Anything manufactured, they will manufacture themselves or buy from another third world country.

As a result of these pools of offshore US currency, the dollar is being devalued. The exchange rate, Dollar to Euro is 1.35. Five years ago it was .95. In effect, the dollar lost 50% of its value. It also means that the price of oil has gone up a lot in US dollars but not much in Euros. For all practical purposes, the Euro may as well be standard oil currency. And its not just the Euro. The Dollar to British pound rate went from 1.45 to 1.98 in five years.

This will cause us a loss of world economic clout. If we continues this, someday we will go to the world trade table and other countries will say “Why is the US here, they’re not bringing anything to the table”.

Then we have all the outsourcing. What kind of jobs will our kids get? They can be graduating as engineers and they’ll be told (already happening) “Sorry no job for you” since the same engineers can be gotten at 1/5 the cost from India.

[Guest Guest]

You must be a defeatocrat. You certainly have that defeatocratic attitude.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A bit of civility in political discourse, please. At the core of Republicanism is Personal Responsibility and at the core of Democratism is Personal Rights. While both parties occasionally lose sight of their goals or attribute the other side's to malice, both views are valid.

The ascent of China is not quite as dire as some believe, but it will certainly have long-term effects upon the global economy. For instance, China's quickly rising rate of automobile ownership has caused their oil consumption to rise dramatically, contributing to higher oil prices for the entire world. One must remember that 1 in every 5 or 6 people on the planet is Chinese.

[Guest BushBacker]

A bit of civility in political discourse, please. At the core of Republicanism is Personal Responsibility and at the core of Democratism is Personal Rights. While both parties occasionally lose sight of their goals or attribute the other side's to malice, both views are valid.

The ascent of China is not quite as dire as some believe, but it will certainly have long-term effects upon the global economy. For instance, China's quickly rising rate of automobile ownership has caused their oil consumption to rise dramatically, contributing to higher oil prices for the entire world. One must remember that 1 in every 5 or 6 people on the planet is Chinese.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A more threatening fact is that 35% of U.S. citizens are registered Defeatocrats.

[Bryan]

The point was he dosn't talk to the man on the street. He's insulated. Which most people probably understood was my original point.

Including me. Petraeus has the a rep for going out among the Iraqi people, and the surge strategy emphasizes that generally among coalition forces.

Your right-if people in Iraq misunderstand Americans, it must be their fault. We can just ignore it-surely it could never blowback on us, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, yeah--that's why I suggested you correct your friend.

It is not our responsibility to change every mind regarding U.S. action. The responsibility is to act responsible and communicate what we're doing effectively--not, I would suggest, to enact weak foreign policy in the hopes of getting on everyone's good side.

[Guest a proud american]

I would like to ask everyone to look deep into thier hearts and be honest with themselves. Do you really, truly and honestly feel we had the right to invade Iraq and remain there to this day? Or, on the other hand are you simply supporting your party? If you truly feel the we should stay in Iraq no matter what, then that is the way you feel and you should stand by it. If on the other hand you know in your heart that this is a big mistake but you will support your party no matter what then you should be ashamed of yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Guest, your question is an excellent one. As a veteran of the Viet Nam war, I could see what was going to happen in Iraq. I retired rather that have to serve in another quagmire.

I believed that on September 13, 2007 when President Bush said we would get the ones that did this to us we would go into Afghanistan and volunteered to go. Since they were only sending 10,000 troops my request was denied. And if you remember most of the world was behind us.

That all changed when, for whater reason or excuse we are hearing now the rules changed. Was Hussein a bad person? Absolutely. Was he a threat? Absolutely not. However, they do have the largest Oil reserves in the world which might have something to do with why we went in.

General Shinseki who was the Army Chief of Staff told Rumsfeld and the White House that if we were going to invade we would need 500,000 troops to do the job right. They didn't listen then and they still aren't listening.

Absolutely I want to bring the troops home now. Their mission was to over throw Sadaam and they did that. It wasn't to stay there and have our troops stuck in a civil war. And whether the right wing wants to admit it or not that is exactly what's happening. In fact the overwhelming majority of american's want us out.

The reason I mentioned Viet Nam is because what is happening now in Iraq is a parralel to what happened there. One small difference is that the Iraqi Government is the first weak regime we are supporting. In Nam we supported atleast three. And the end result was we bore the brunt of the combat deaths and injuries just like now. As far as a fighting force, the South Vietnamese were as worthless as the Iraqi army is today. Once they saw that we were willing to fight they felt they didn't have to. Today as you are reading this, three more americans died. How many iraqi soldiers died today?.

When the Democrats voted to give the president more money for the troop it was with the intention of insuring the troops had what they need. While I believe they are as sorry as the President we'll see what happens in September. In fact, I wrote to my Congressman and vented my disgust about giving any more money. Fortunately he voted against funding.

Once you have been to war, you look at going to war a lot differently than ones who didn't which I think is part of the problem. We can't solve the problems over there. Only they can. And as long as their priorities are whether to go on vacation for two months shouldn't we start to bring troops home now? In reality it's the only way to force them to do something/anything.

And to my right wing friends you need not respond to this message. I already know what you think which is what caused us to get into this mess in the first place.