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http://kearnyusa.com/node/1049

It is called a Christmas Tree not a Holiday Tree Kearny!!!!! I don't see anyone calling the Hanukkah Menorah a Candle Holder in order to be not religious.

If you really want to be technical about what the thing "is," the tradition of decorating an evergreen tree at holiday appears to have started with ancient Greeks, who were using the tree in homage to the god Adonia. So to be accurate, maybe we should call it an Adonia tree.

You call it a Christmas tree. Some people call it a holiday tree. You do not speak for everyone. In fact, with religion, 85% of the people don't speak for the other 15%. Religion is an individual, personal right.

The statement to which you object is on a Town of Kearny site. That site has to speak for all of us, of all religious persuasions. You can't have it both ways, putting up this holiday tree as an expression on behalf of the entire community, and at the same time limit it to only some people. Because the government is promoting this, it has to be for everyone. So they called it a holiday tree, as they must. That way, everyone is included.

Stop ruining the fun and the unity of this season. Stop arguing about what we're going to call it or what it means, which we don't all agree on, and just rejoice that we can celebrate with each other during this season. The fact that some of your fellow citizens see it in another way shouldn't bother you. It's their right, which you should support if you really believe that this is a country where the right to worship or not, and how, belongs to each person. It's only if you think that government should promote one religion over all the others that it would matter to you.

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http://kearnyusa.com/node/1049

It is called a Christmas Tree not a Holiday Tree Kearny!!!!! I don't see anyone calling the Hanukkah Menorah a Candle Holder in order to be not religious.

I have to agree - it IS a Christmas tree and everyone is welcome to enjoy it, but let's not forget what it is, unless like you say, you place it next to the 8 candle candle holder on the front lawn of the town hall.

Do you remember when we had a creche in the town hall park (with live animals!)? I guess today it would be a replica early birthing center. ;)

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Guest radicss Tench,

100 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 50 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 20 years ago it was a Christmas tree, you can say it's not a Christmas tree now but it's a Christmas tree. No one disputed it then, you can't dispute it now all of a sudden.

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100 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 50 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 20 years ago it was a Christmas tree, you can say it's not a Christmas tree now but it's a Christmas tree. No one disputed it then, you can't dispute it now all of a sudden.

Plenty of people had other names for it 100 and 50 and 20 years ago and longer. But because cultures are melded together now, as they've never been before, you're just hearing about it for the first time.

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100 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 50 years ago it was a Christmas tree, 20 years ago it was a Christmas tree, you can say it's not a Christmas tree now but it's a Christmas tree. No one disputed it then, you can't dispute it now all of a sudden.

That's like saying you can't dispute racial segregation, women not having the vote, and gays and lesbians not being able to marry. Cultures mature and advance. Just because many people in the majority group don't see the issue doesn't mean it's not there; it only means that minorities are always invisible to people who choose not to see them.

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I have to agree - it IS a Christmas tree and everyone is welcome to enjoy it, but let's not forget what it is, unless like you say, you place it next to the 8 candle candle holder on the front lawn of the town hall.

Do you remember when we had a creche in the town hall park (with live animals!)? I guess today it would be a replica early birthing center. ;)

It doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. That is a fact. Saying it "IS" a Christmas tree expresses how you see it, not how everyone sees it. I'm sorry to say but it also reflects a narrow-mindedness.

It doesn't matter whether most people in Kearny would agree or disagree what it "IS." How each person sees it is up to that person. That is the part you cannot change, and the part that people who are insecure in their own beliefs seem to think they HAVE TO push on everyone else.

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Plenty of people had other names for it 100 and 50 and 20 years ago and longer. But because cultures are melded together now, as they've never been before, you're just hearing about it for the first time.

Over 50 and never heard another name for it. It's a Christmas tree. At State Fair today. It was filled with Christmas merchandise. Filled with Christmas music and filled with people buying Christmas merchandise. Fight it all you want, it's Christmas time baby and people love it! Hark the Herald Angels Sing, not because it's a religious song but because it's a GREAT song and an American tradition!

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Over 50 and never heard another name for it. It's a Christmas tree. At State Fair today. It was filled with Christmas merchandise. Filled with Christmas music and filled with people buying Christmas merchandise. Fight it all you want, it's Christmas time baby and people love it! Hark the Herald Angels Sing, not because it's a religious song but because it's a GREAT song and an American tradition!

Not for everyone. Not for Buddhists or Muslims or Jews or Hindus or Humanists. Why do you feel such an intense need to push your feelings about it onto others and insist that it "is" the same thing for everyone?

If it's not about the religion, then it doesn't have to be about Christmas. It can be for you but you cannot say what it is for others.

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Over 50 and never heard another name for it. It's a Christmas tree. At State Fair today. It was filled with Christmas merchandise. Filled with Christmas music and filled with people buying Christmas merchandise. Fight it all you want, it's Christmas time baby and people love it! Hark the Herald Angels Sing, not because it's a religious song but because it's a GREAT song and an American tradition!

"Christmas merchandise"? You're too funny. And you don't even mean to be.

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Wait this tree is going to cost approximately $25,000. Any chance they can toss in a couple extra bucks to remove those hideous lights. I purposely reroute my driving past it as it's a complete eye sore. Seriously, maybe they coulda saved a part time job and put up something a little less gaudy and cost efficient. What's next skaters on the front lawn.

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It doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. That is a fact. Saying it "IS" a Christmas tree expresses how you see it, not how everyone sees it. I'm sorry to say but it also reflects a narrow-mindedness.

It doesn't matter whether most people in Kearny would agree or disagree what it "IS." How each person sees it is up to that person. That is the part you cannot change, and the part that people who are insecure in their own beliefs seem to think they HAVE TO push on everyone else.

You do realize that goes both ways don't you?? The Atheists are just as annoying with their "You can't make me say "Merry Christmas", So I'm going to sue the Town for violating the First Amendment because I don't have a clue of what the "Establishment Clause" actually means" stupidity. Enjoy the season in whatever way YOU want, and be happy. Ok, so, all that said, now who want's to bet we'll get at least ONE Asshat here before the end of the Holidays with their panties in a bunch because someone who works for the Town had the Audacity to tell them "Merry Christmas"???

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You do realize that goes both ways don't you?? The Atheists are just as annoying with their "You can't make me say "Merry Christmas", So I'm going to sue the Town for violating the First Amendment because I don't have a clue of what the "Establishment Clause" actually means" stupidity. Enjoy the season in whatever way YOU want, and be happy. Ok, so, all that said, now who want's to bet we'll get at least ONE Asshat here before the end of the Holidays with their panties in a bunch because someone who works for the Town had the Audacity to tell them "Merry Christmas"???

Maybe, but that's not the Asshat we got. We got an Asshat with her or her panties in a twist because they didn't call it what he wants them to call it. It didn't make his or her religion superior to everyone else's.

Sometimes it goes both ways. There are annoying atheists, just as there are annoying Christians. There are even some atheists who would like to force their atheism on everyone. We don't let them do it, and we shouldn't let the Christians or the Jews or the Muslims, or any other group do it either. That's equal treatment, and that is what the Town of Kearny has done. That is in fact what the Establishment Clause means. It's not stupidity. It's the Constitution and the law, and the reason for it is that religion is a personal right, which belongs to each person individually. That's why we can't have the government declaring the holiday to be solely for the Christian religion.

The Town posted an inclusive message: "Happy holidays" and "holiday tree." That message includes everyone. Someone got his or her panties in a twist over it because it didn't promote Christianity over every other religion. So who forced the issue? A "Christian" who doesn't understand that everyone gets to celebrate the holidays, and each of us is entitled to do it as we see fit, that's who. And while you might come across an atheist who is equally or more annoying, the danger of religious oppression comes from the majority, not the minority. Study the history of such debacles as the Inquisitions if you don't believe it. Study social psychology. Or just use your common sense. Group pressure comes from the dominant group. This isn't hard to understand, unless you just don't want to see it.

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Maybe, but that's not the Asshat we got. We got an Asshat with her or her panties in a twist because they didn't call it what he wants them to call it. It didn't make his or her religion superior to everyone else's.

Sometimes it goes both ways. There are annoying atheists, just as there are annoying Christians. There are even some atheists who would like to force their atheism on everyone. We don't let them do it, and we shouldn't let the Christians or the Jews or the Muslims, or any other group do it either. That's equal treatment, and that is what the Town of Kearny has done. That is in fact what the Establishment Clause means. It's not stupidity. It's the Constitution and the law, and the reason for it is that religion is a personal right, which belongs to each person individually. That's why we can't have the government declaring the holiday to be solely for the Christian religion.

The Town posted an inclusive message: "Happy holidays" and "holiday tree." That message includes everyone. Someone got his or her panties in a twist over it because it didn't promote Christianity over every other religion. So who forced the issue? A "Christian" who doesn't understand that everyone gets to celebrate the holidays, and each of us is entitled to do it as we see fit, that's who. And while you might come across an atheist who is equally or more annoying, the danger of religious oppression comes from the majority, not the minority. Study the history of such debacles as the Inquisitions if you don't believe it. Study social psychology. Or just use your common sense. Group pressure comes from the dominant group. This isn't hard to understand, unless you just don't want to see it.

Reading is Fundamental..I was not saying that the Establishment Clause was Stupid, I was saying that the people who think a Piblic Employee who Says "Merry Christmas" is a Violation of the Establishment Clause are Stupid.

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As the above post states it does go both ways. In this case Paul is now trying to force his beliefs on everyone.

A note to Mayor Santos: please get rid of all holiday decorations, save the town some money, and make Paul happy so the rest of us can get on with our lives.

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Reading is Fundamental..I was not saying that the Establishment Clause was Stupid, I was saying that the people who think a Piblic Employee who Says "Merry Christmas" is a Violation of the Establishment Clause are Stupid.

Context is fundamental too. The topic is about the Town's holiday display, which is perfectly appropriate and the right way to do it. You can't stop people from doing silly things but you're free to post on it if it happens. That's not the point. The point is that citizens have the right to expect town officials to act appropriately, and they did.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Apparently the White House referred to Christmas Trees as Holiday Trees for the first time this year which prompted CBS presenter, Ben Stein, to present this piece which I would like to share with you. I think it applies just as much to many countries as it does to America.

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God ? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

Merry Christmas Paul!

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Apparently the White House referred to Christmas Trees as Holiday Trees for the first time this year which prompted CBS presenter, Ben Stein, to present this piece which I would like to share with you. I think it applies just as much to many countries as it does to America.

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God ? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

Merry Christmas Paul!

Do you really mean to wish Paul a Merry Christmas, or are you sticking it in his face? If you're honest about answering that question, you'll understand what's wrong with your attitude and why the administration did the right thing.

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Apparently the White House referred to Christmas Trees as Holiday Trees for the first time this year which prompted CBS presenter, Ben Stein, to present this piece which I would like to share with you. I think it applies just as much to many countries as it does to America.

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God ? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

Merry Christmas Paul!

Then it shouldn't bother you if people say "Happy Holidays" either. Christians aren't being persecuted just because everyone isn't saying "Merry Christmas."

You also didn't check your facts. The White House has not said that it will call them holiday trees. As usual, you swallowed right wing propaganda as though it was truth.

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Do you really mean to wish Paul a Merry Christmas, or are you sticking it in his face? If you're honest about answering that question, you'll understand what's wrong with your attitude and why the administration did the right thing.

In this country, Christians are used to being the majority. Very often, when that happens, some people (not all) think they're entitled to special privileges, so they don't see how they're taking advantage of people in the minority. They think they're entitled to do whatever they want. White people in the South mistreated black people for a century after the Civil War, and when the federal government finally stepped in to end segregation, they whined and complained about it saying it was a violation of "state's rights." But what about the rights of African-Americans to equal treatment? The racists didn't care about those rights, just like bigoted people who call themselves Christians don't care about the rights of non-Christians.

To them, treating everyone equally looks like persecution. Only it's not persecution. It is Christmas season, and also Hanukkah season and Solstice season. Why don't we have a Solstice display. There's nothing wrong with calling it a holiday so everyone can be included. In fact, it's the right thing to do. You're only going to get upset about it if you think your holiday is more important than everyone else's - and of course, that is exactly what the bigots do think.

It's like when the same self-righteous, holier-than-thou crowd called equal marriage rights for gays and lesbians "special rights." Well here we are, with gay marriage now the law of several states, and the kids haven't suffered a bit, and they won't. Because what matters is that parents love their kids and take good care of them. Gays and lesbians are just as capable of doing that as anyone else, and non-Christians are just as much entitled to their holidays as anyone else. If we're going to make a big deal out of one, then we should make a big deal out of them all. Otherwise, we're just a nation of hypocrites - been there, done that. The Town of Kearny did the right thing. The White House should do the same.

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In this country, Christians are used to being the majority. Very often, when that happens, some people (not all) think they're entitled to special privileges, so they don't see how they're taking advantage of people in the minority. They think they're entitled to do whatever they want. White people in the South mistreated black people for a century after the Civil War, and when the federal government finally stepped in to end segregation, they whined and complained about it saying it was a violation of "state's rights." But what about the rights of African-Americans to equal treatment? The racists didn't care about those rights, just like bigoted people who call themselves Christians don't care about the rights of non-Christians.

To them, treating everyone equally looks like persecution. Only it's not persecution. It is Christmas season, and also Hanukkah season and Solstice season. Why don't we have a Solstice display. There's nothing wrong with calling it a holiday so everyone can be included. In fact, it's the right thing to do. You're only going to get upset about it if you think your holiday is more important than everyone else's - and of course, that is exactly what the bigots do think.

It's like when the same self-righteous, holier-than-thou crowd called equal marriage rights for gays and lesbians "special rights." Well here we are, with gay marriage now the law of several states, and the kids haven't suffered a bit, and they won't. Because what matters is that parents love their kids and take good care of them. Gays and lesbians are just as capable of doing that as anyone else, and non-Christians are just as much entitled to their holidays as anyone else. If we're going to make a big deal out of one, then we should make a big deal out of them all. Otherwise, we're just a nation of hypocrites - been there, done that. The Town of Kearny did the right thing. The White House should do the same.

Come on, comparing slavery to this situation of whether to call it a holiday tree or a Christmas Tree. That's a stretch even for Paul.

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Do you really mean to wish Paul a Merry Christmas, or are you sticking it in his face? If you're honest about answering that question, you'll understand what's wrong with your attitude and why the administration did the right thing.

Yes I do. But I also think it's Paul that's doing the sticking.

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