What Has Happened To Our Country?

[Guest Guest]

Someone just posted that I should stop discussing the U. S. Constitution and the pledge of allegiance.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93251 I disagree.

If the Constitution isn't followed in cities and towns and villages all over this country, it practically ceases to exist. The Constitution isn't just for show. It is the supreme law of the land, and it must be followed if we want to live by the rule of law.

This isn't the only time we Americans have announced high principles and then not followed them. Slavery and the genocide against the Native American peoples come to mind. Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't want to hear it. Sorry, but those are facts. I don't want to revisit that history or conduct a national flogging. I just want to see our country live up to its ideals. There's no excuse not to. So cut the crap, follow the Constitution you claim to be standing for, then I'll stop complaining about your behavior. And I don't care if it sounds arrogant to you. This is my view, like it or don't. If you want to convince me otherwise, make an intelligent argument instead of spouting the same old platitudes.

Most of the U.S. Supreme Court cases that fleshed out important Constitutional principles involved local units of government. All the leading pledge of allegiance cases and many of the free speech cases involved local school districts. So when a local renegade teacher abuses his power to proselytize his religion, I will help anyone who calls him out on it, if given a chance. When someone tries to force me to stand for a government-sponsored ceremony, that is precisely when I will not stand. And when you keep proving to me that you don't get it, I'll just talk about it all the more. Like it or don't, that is what freedom means to me. Most people have grown so accustomed to the usual rituals and practices, they have forgotten their meaning. In my view, that is very dangerous and very ominous to the future of democracy in the United States. Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.

And with all due respect, "better in Kearny," it is not your call how another citizen spends his time or where he focuses his attention. These are important issues and I'm going to keep discussing them as long as you or others keep inviting that discussion. All your constant focus on me says is that you really don't want to hear another view besides your own.

Thank you for taking the time to give us another Constitutional lesson. Especially during your busy season with all of the Christmas decorations that need to be removed.

[Guest 2smart4u]

Someone just posted that I should stop discussing the U. S. Constitution and the pledge of allegiance.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93251 I disagree.

If the Constitution isn't followed in cities and towns and villages all over this country, it practically ceases to exist. The Constitution isn't just for show. It is the supreme law of the land, and it must be followed if we want to live by the rule of law.

This isn't the only time we Americans have announced high principles and then not followed them. Slavery and the genocide against the Native American peoples come to mind. Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't want to hear it. Sorry, but those are facts. I don't want to revisit that history or conduct a national flogging. I just want to see our country live up to its ideals. There's no excuse not to. So cut the crap, follow the Constitution you claim to be standing for, then I'll stop complaining about your behavior. And I don't care if it sounds arrogant to you. This is my view, like it or don't. If you want to convince me otherwise, make an intelligent argument instead of spouting the same old platitudes.

Most of the U.S. Supreme Court cases that fleshed out important Constitutional principles involved local units of government. All the leading pledge of allegiance cases and many of the free speech cases involved local school districts. So when a local renegade teacher abuses his power to proselytize his religion, I will help anyone who calls him out on it, if given a chance. When someone tries to force me to stand for a government-sponsored ceremony, that is precisely when I will not stand. And when you keep proving to me that you don't get it, I'll just talk about it all the more. Like it or don't, that is what freedom means to me. Most people have grown so accustomed to the usual rituals and practices, they have forgotten their meaning. In my view, that is very dangerous and very ominous to the future of democracy in the United States. Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.

And with all due respect, "better in Kearny," it is not your call how another citizen spends his time or where he focuses his attention. These are important issues and I'm going to keep discussing them as long as you or others keep inviting that discussion. All your constant focus on me says is that you really don't want to hear another view besides your own.

Don't you just love these unsolicited lectures by someone who doesn't respect our country enough to stand for the pledge.

[Guest Paul]

Well, this is not the type of response I was looking for. I simply made a statement, and did not expect any name calling, but then again, this is KOTW. I am not asking anyone to confirm my beliefs or condem them. I just made a staement on my feelings. All of the men in my family served our country, as did my husband and now my son. Ask any vet or military person if they believe in the pledge and I am quite sure that they will tell you that they stand and say the pledge. But please, stop the name calling, if we can't have our own opinions without being called names, then why bother voicing one.

I believe that you are entirely sincere, but those statements do not accurately reflect what you wrote. Look at your post that opens this topic. It's full of exclamation points, expressions of outrage and even two angry-faces.

And you weren't just speaking for yourself. You made an argument about how others should view and address this issue. You do not speak for all vets and military families. Most of them probably agree with you, but some of them do not.

I believe the right to dissent is more central to freedom than any pledge could ever be. The reason is very simple: free nations have existed without a pledge of allegiance, but no free nation has ever existed without the right to dissent, and none ever will. The one is important, the other is not.

Think about that, please. I would love to discuss the issue with you, but please, just think about it.

[Guest Guest]

Thank you for taking the time to give us another Constitutional lesson. Especially during your busy season with all of the Christmas decorations that need to be removed.

The way this works is that if you don't agree with what someone wrote, you use facts and reason to point out what's wrong with it. They taught you that in school, but apparently you either weren't listening or didn't care, so you still need lessons.

[Guest Guest]

Don't you just love these unsolicited lectures by someone who doesn't respect our country enough to stand for the pledge.

Don't you just love these unsolicited lectures by someone who doesn't understand freedom on anyone who does.

Don't you just love these unsolicited attacks by someone who never says anything on anyone who does.

[Guest Guest]

Well, this is not the type of response I was looking for. I simply made a statement, and did not expect any name calling, but then again, this is KOTW. I am not asking anyone to confirm my beliefs or condem them. I just made a staement on my feelings. All of the men in my family served our country, as did my husband and now my son. Ask any vet or military person if they believe in the pledge and I am quite sure that they will tell you that they stand and say the pledge. But please, stop the name calling, if we can't have our own opinions without being called names, then why bother voicing one.

Wait a minute! You started a topic whose title suggests that something bad is happening to our country.

“What has happened to our country, The Pledge of Allegiance”

“Nov 16 2008, 11:49 AM "

In the body of your argument you criticize actions by people in Vermont regarding the pledge. You’re not just innocently stating your feelings. You’re calling on people to stand up for their country, assuming they agree with you that this is some kind of attack. You make a good point about name calling but you shouldn’t be surprised that the topic generates controversy.

[Guest Guest]

Don't you just love these unsolicited lectures by someone who doesn't respect our country enough to stand for the pledge.

All the posts on KOTW are unsolicited. Some of them actually say something.

[Guest Guest]

You would think that. You would also be wrong. Most of them, once they get to know me, understand my reasons and are proud to have defended the freedom that allows me to do it. They realize that I am honoring them in my own way by standing up for freedom against strong opposition. Two of them even commented that it reminded them of their own service. One put it best: "We both fight for our country, just in different ways." Several veterans have posted here and made the same point.

You think everyone who served in the military agrees with you on this point. You are demonstrably wrong. This isn't just a difference of opinion. You're wrong. They don't all think that. So the problem is the narrow way in which you are looking at it. Because when you say that "all of the war heroes" would think that way (I'll say it again), that's not true.

Not everyone in the military agrees with me but most do. It's pretty hard to believe that a combat veteran would find your sitting for the pledge comparable to what they went through.

When are you going to file your suit to have "under God" taken out of the pledge? If so many people believe like you do it should be a slam dunk.

[Guest Patriot]

You would think that. You would also be wrong. Most of them, once they get to know me, understand my reasons and are proud to have defended the freedom that allows me to do it. They realize that I am honoring them in my own way by standing up for freedom against strong opposition. Two of them even commented that it reminded them of their own service. One put it best: "We both fight for our country, just in different ways." Several veterans have posted here and made the same point.

You think everyone who served in the military agrees with you on this point. You are demonstrably wrong. This isn't just a difference of opinion. You're wrong. They don't all think that. So the problem is the narrow way in which you are looking at it. Because when you say that "all of the war heroes" would think that way (I'll say it again), that's not true.

I don't know of any veterans who would be proud to have defended your freedom to snub our flag, you're a liar. You've just proved that you're willing to say anything (truthful or not) to make your point. The more I read of your posts, the more I'm convinced that you're a devious, manipulating, far left loon.

[Guest better in Kearny]

Someone just posted that I should stop discussing the U. S. Constitution and the pledge of allegiance.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93251 I disagree.

If the Constitution isn't followed in cities and towns and villages all over this country, it practically ceases to exist. The Constitution isn't just for show. It is the supreme law of the land, and it must be followed if we want to live by the rule of law.

This isn't the only time we Americans have announced high principles and then not followed them. Slavery and the genocide against the Native American peoples come to mind. Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't want to hear it. Sorry, but those are facts. I don't want to revisit that history or conduct a national flogging. I just want to see our country live up to its ideals. There's no excuse not to. So cut the crap, follow the Constitution you claim to be standing for, then I'll stop complaining about your behavior. And I don't care if it sounds arrogant to you. This is my view, like it or don't. If you want to convince me otherwise, make an intelligent argument instead of spouting the same old platitudes.

Most of the U.S. Supreme Court cases that fleshed out important Constitutional principles involved local units of government. All the leading pledge of allegiance cases and many of the free speech cases involved local school districts. So when a local renegade teacher abuses his power to proselytize his religion, I will help anyone who calls him out on it, if given a chance. When someone tries to force me to stand for a government-sponsored ceremony, that is precisely when I will not stand. And when you keep proving to me that you don't get it, I'll just talk about it all the more. Like it or don't, that is what freedom means to me. Most people have grown so accustomed to the usual rituals and practices, they have forgotten their meaning. In my view, that is very dangerous and very ominous to the future of democracy in the United States. Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.

And with all due respect, "better in Kearny," it is not your call how another citizen spends his time or where he focuses his attention. These are important issues and I'm going to keep discussing them as long as you or others keep inviting that discussion. All your constant focus on me says is that you really don't want to hear another view besides your own.

All I want to know is how I can drive down Davis Ave in Kearny from Midand to Bergan Avenue without needing another steering alignment. This road has been is such bad shape for over 6 months that it is undrivable to most small cars. Things like this around town do not get discussed and if that interferes with you on Capital Hill and your so called Constitution then too bad. So tell me Mr. Hot Shot how is this road going to get repaired? So stick that up your constitution and see what comes out.

[Guest Guest]

All I want to know is how I can drive down Davis Ave in Kearny from Midand to Bergan Avenue without needing another steering alignment. This road has been is such bad shape for over 6 months that it is undrivable to most small cars. Things like this around town do not get discussed and if that interferes with you on Capital Hill and your so called Constitution then too bad. So tell me Mr. Hot Shot how is this road going to get repaired? So stick that up your constitution and see what comes out.

So you're saying we should all forget about the Constitution and just fix the roads. Why can't we concentrate on both? It's a legitimate question. Answer it.

[Guest Paul]

Not everyone in the military agrees with me but most do. It's pretty hard to believe that a combat veteran would find your sitting for the pledge comparable to what they went through.

When are you going to file your suit to have "under God" taken out of the pledge? If so many people believe like you do it should be a slam dunk.

I know most people agree with you, which is why it's not a slam dunk at all. Apparently you didn't notice the contradiction between your first sentence and your last. What you fail to appreciate is that the Constitution protects the right of dissent, which is what not standing for the pledge is.

[Guest Paul]

All I want to know is how I can drive down Davis Ave in Kearny from Midand to Bergan Avenue without needing another steering alignment. This road has been is such bad shape for over 6 months that it is undrivable to most small cars. Things like this around town do not get discussed and if that interferes with you on Capital Hill and your so called Constitution then too bad. So tell me Mr. Hot Shot how is this road going to get repaired? So stick that up your constitution and see what comes out.

I'm very sorry you feel that way, but with all due respect there are more important things than your car's front axle. I've driven down Davis Avenue plenty of times without a problem. If a fat old man like me can do it, you shouldn't have a problem. Not that the roads shouldn't be maintained, but sometimes you just have to watch where you're driving.

If you really feel that strongly about it, you could attend the next town council meeting. Tell them what you just wrote here: "stick it up your Constitution."

You just proved what I've been saying about this for the past four years. A lot of people don't care about the glue that holds our country together as long as their roads are fixed and the trains run on time. I seem to remember that phrase from history somewhere.

[Bern]

All I want to know is how I can drive down Davis Ave in Kearny from Midand to Bergan Avenue without needing another steering alignment. This road has been is such bad shape for over 6 months that it is undrivable to most small cars. Things like this around town do not get discussed and if that interferes with you on Capital Hill and your so called Constitution then too bad. So tell me Mr. Hot Shot how is this road going to get repaired? So stick that up your constitution and see what comes out.

You remind me of the Italians who loved Mussolini because the trains ran on time and the roads were maintained while not worrying about that little thing called freedom.

[Guest Guest]

You remind me of the Italians who loved Mussolini because the trains ran on time and the roads were maintained while not worrying about that little thing called freedom.

More paranoia.

[Guest Guest]

So you're saying we should all forget about the Constitution and just fix the roads. Why can't we concentrate on both? It's a legitimate question. Answer it.

Nah. We're typical Kearny idiots. We'd rather whine.

[Guest Guest]

Thank you for taking the time to give us another Constitutional lesson. Especially during your busy season with all of the Christmas decorations that need to be removed.

I see stupid people.

[Guest Guest]

Don't you just love these unsolicited lectures by someone who doesn't respect our country enough to stand for the pledge.

They're all over.

[Guest Guest]

I don't know of any veterans who would be proud to have defended your freedom to snub our flag, you're a liar. You've just proved that you're willing to say anything (truthful or not) to make your point. The more I read of your posts, the more I'm convinced that you're a devious, manipulating, far left loon.

"Do you see them now?"

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

[Guest Guest]

All I want to know is how I can drive down Davis Ave in Kearny from Midand to Bergan Avenue without needing another steering alignment. This road has been is such bad shape for over 6 months that it is undrivable to most small cars. Things like this around town do not get discussed and if that interferes with you on Capital Hill and your so called Constitution then too bad. So tell me Mr. Hot Shot how is this road going to get repaired? So stick that up your constitution and see what comes out.

They don't know they're stupid.

[Guest Guest]

More paranoia.

My head hurts.

[Guest Patriot]

More paranoia.

What is wrong with our country has just been demonstrated in Washinton by the mean-spirited atheists who placed a hateful poster next to the manger scene. These loonies could have placed a picture of Darwin, a monkey, Mother Nature, a tree or whatever else they believe in and there wouldn't have been a problem. But instead they chose to mock Christianity in a mean spirited way. What is it with all the anger among the far left loonies?

[Guest Paul]

What is wrong with our country has just been demonstrated in Washinton by the mean-spirited atheists who placed a hateful poster next to the manger scene. These loonies could have placed a picture of Darwin, a monkey, Mother Nature, a tree or whatever else they believe in and there wouldn't have been a problem. But instead they chose to mock Christianity in a mean spirited way. What is it with all the anger among the far left loonies?

Do you really not see your own anger? You're mocking them by calling them "far left loonies." That's hateful and not even true. Some of the people at FFRF are not on the left, they're on the right. Left-right has nothing to do with it. All you ever do is pull your pat little phrases out so you don't have to think.

The FFRF's statement is not what's wrong with our country. In the first place, FFRF doesn't control our country, far from it.

I know the people at FFRF. They're good people, not usually angry, but they do have a real bug about religion, with considerable justification, though I think they're too categorical in their denunciations. I would have written a different last sentence, but on the other hand, if Christians are going to insist on using public property to evangelize, people who think that the mainline religions have done more to undermine society than to improve it have every right to call them on it, and should.

And if you want to talk about hateful, there's nothing more hateful than a theology that says there's eternal torment in hell waiting for you if you believe in the wrong things. That's hateful and divisive and arrogant and horrible. It has done a tremendous amount of damage throughout Western Civilization. You're blind to it because you've wrapped yourself within it, so you can't see it.

If gays and lesbians had a display on the town hall's front lawn and someone posted something nearby that declared "homosexuality is a sin and an abomination," would you think that hateful? Compare and contrast. Engage in a discussion for once instead of spitting out your biases. After all, you're telling us that we're wrong and you're right. Explain your position and persuade us. Then after you've convinced us with the power of your argument, you won't have to be aggravated any more.

[Guest Guest]

What is wrong with our country has just been demonstrated in Washinton by the mean-spirited atheists who placed a hateful poster next to the manger scene. These loonies could have placed a picture of Darwin, a monkey, Mother Nature, a tree or whatever else they believe in and there wouldn't have been a problem. But instead they chose to mock Christianity in a mean spirited way. What is it with all the anger among the far left loonies?

The Governor is taking a lot of heat for this ridiculous decision to allow a hateful, mean-spirited poster in the Statehouse next to the manger scene. I think her re-election chances are gone along with her common sense. And of course, Paul used your comments to write a long rambling statement that had nothing to do with the subject of this dispicable poster.

[Guest Guest]

Do you really not see your own anger? You're mocking them by calling them "far left loonies." That's hateful and not even true. Some of the people at FFRF are not on the left, they're on the right. Left-right has nothing to do with it. All you ever do is pull your pat little phrases out so you don't have to think.

The FFRF's statement is not what's wrong with our country. In the first place, FFRF doesn't control our country, far from it.

I know the people at FFRF. They're good people, not usually angry, but they do have a real bug about religion, with considerable justification, though I think they're too categorical in their denunciations. I would have written a different last sentence, but on the other hand, if Christians are going to insist on using public property to evangelize, people who think that the mainline religions have done more to undermine society than to improve it have every right to call them on it, and should.

And if you want to talk about hateful, there's nothing more hateful than a theology that says there's eternal torment in hell waiting for you if you believe in the wrong things. That's hateful and divisive and arrogant and horrible. It has done a tremendous amount of damage throughout Western Civilization. You're blind to it because you've wrapped yourself within it, so you can't see it.

If gays and lesbians had a display on the town hall's front lawn and someone posted something nearby that declared "homosexuality is a sin and an abomination," would you think that hateful? Compare and contrast. Engage in a discussion for once instead of spitting out your biases. After all, you're telling us that we're wrong and you're right. Explain your position and persuade us. Then after you've convinced us with the power of your argument, you won't have to be aggravated any more.

You don't get it. The atheists could have put up something that was representative of their views. Instead they chose an attack poster against Christianity. Why is that so hard for you to understand?