What Has Happened To Our Country?

[Guest Guest]

So reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a "harmful practice". You are such a dispicable person. You dishonor our many brave military who have given their lives and limbs to allow dirt bags like yourself to be able to stand and pledge your love and support for everything this country stands for.

But you consider that simple act a harmful practice. While others give their lives, you mock them, you disgusting piece of s--t.

I'm starting to understand Paul's point. He's right. We really don't need a pledge of allegiance. People who are going to be good citizens will be good citizens without it. People who aren't going to be good citizens won't be good just because they say some words.

And this guy Speedy, who thinks we should say a pledge because his grandson looks cute. WTF?!

But what really made me understand how right Paul is, is this jackass who calls himself a Patriot. What a hateful person. If someone doesn't do what he wants them to do, he's ready to form a lynch mob.

That's a good reason not to have a pledge at all. Too many people can't handle it. Ridiculous, but true.

[Guest Patriot]

I'm starting to understand Paul's point. He's right. We really don't need a pledge of allegiance. People who are going to be good citizens will be good citizens without it. People who aren't going to be good citizens won't be good just because they say some words.

And this guy Speedy, who thinks we should say a pledge because his grandson looks cute. WTF?!

But what really made me understand how right Paul is, is this jackass who calls himself a Patriot. What a hateful person. If someone doesn't do what he wants them to do, he's ready to form a lynch mob.

That's a good reason not to have a pledge at all. Too many people can't handle it. Ridiculous, but true.

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

[Guest Keith]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

I find it ironic that for all of your brow beating about the flag and the pledge of allegience , you really don't seem to understand what they really stand for. They stand for the individuals right to display or not display thier loyalty. There is no litmus test, or is there?

[Guest Paul]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

I was the type of person who was led off to the gas chambers, you're right about that. But I think your objection is not that I'm being silent. It's that I'm standing my ground and saying what you do not wish to hear. And I'm putting my name to it. Put your name to it, coward.

[Guest Guest]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

You prove Paul's point every time you write. You're completely out of control. You never say anything, you just call names. You ignore everything that isn't convenient to your point of view. Paul is right. That's a mob mentality, and you're living proof of it. And the angrier you get, the more you prove his point that for some people the pledge is an excuse for not being a good citizen.

[WilliamK]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it.

When one is required to say it, it accomplishes none of that. In fact, it flies in the face of the very idea of freedom that it is supposed to honor. The meaning of the pledge is diminished by making it mandatory.

If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge.

Paul has said nothing at all against saying the pledge or loving our country. That idea is entirely your own fabrication.

Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

What a bizarrely twisted mind it must take to make this statement against one of the very few people who IS willing to take a stand and not just follow everyone else, while it is you who advocates going along with the mass mentality.

[Guest Guest]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

Patriotism is about helping your country and making it better. If it doesn't make our country better, then there's no reason to do it. If it makes our country worse, then we shouldn't do it. I'm starting to think reciting the pledge does make our country worse, mostly because of attitudes like yours.

[Guest Guest]

The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it.

I don't want my husband telling me he loves me all the time. I want him to show me that he does.

How does a pledge help our country?

Why isn't doing things for the country a better way to show our love and respect?

Answer those questions, blowhard.

[Guest Guest]

What a demented idiot you are. The intent of the pledge is not to make you a "good citizen". It is to show your love and respect to our great country and our military who fight and die to protect it. If that's too much for you to understand then join Paul in turning his back on the flag. Paul thinks we'll all become Nazis if we love our country and stand and recite the pledge. Keep this point in mind; Paul is the type of person that was led off to the gas chambers by the millions in WWll without as much as a whimper of resistance. If his Land of Oz mentality is attractive to you then by all means have a large glass of Kool-Aid and join him.

Yeah, we'll force 'em to love and respect their country!

[Guest speedy]

Speedy, you're probably a very nice person, and we're both over 50. But when you contrast yourself from others saying if "it wasn't for people like me, who still believe in our history" . . . that seems arrogant, and it is unless I'm misinterpreting you. What makes you think that those of us who see the problems with the way the pledge is being handled don't believe in our history? What makes you think that Bern isn't faithful to his or her country? Frankly, Speedy, shame on you.

It's your attitude that is dividing this country for the worst of reasons. You are the one who is harming this country, with that attitude. So I say it again. Shame on you for questioning the patriotism of a fellow citizen who obviously cares about his/her country. That is exactly where this obsession with the pledge of allegiance has led, and that is why I will not say it. And I wish I knew your real name so I could say it to your face. You may not see it, but I'm fighting for my country.

There are more important things to teach the children about our history than the great songs and the good stuff. History is much more than that. Our children, and our adults, need to understand history so that we don't "help" our country repeat its mistakes, not just so we can parade around waving the flag. Being a citizen is not just about feeling good. That's part of it, but it isn't close to being the most important part. You're making it the only part. You couldn't be more wrong. That's a main reason why I don't like what's happening with the pledge of allegiance.

Paul, from what I understood, it was the songs and those words in the pledge that kepy the high moral of our men & women

going, sticking together singing when they were sad or scared and standing up because they believed that the pledge was an oath to the country that they fought for. WWI, WWII, all the way back to the Revolutionary War, songs of love of our country were the binding force for our men & women, so shame on me, no I don't think so, I was at the ceremonies on Veterans Day, you know how many people came out to thank a vet? count your fingers & toes, that was it. So no shame on me

[Guest Guest]

I don't want my husband telling me he loves me all the time. I want him to show me that he does.

How does a pledge help our country?

Why isn't doing things for the country a better way to show our love and respect?

Answer those questions, blowhard.

The pledge helps our country by letting us take a moment to reflect on some of the foundational ideas of our country.

When Paul and Matt choose not to stand for the pledge it is disrespectful and self serving. Don't feel sorry for them, they love and crave the attention.

[Guest Guest]

No, what they fought and died for was the right for him,you and me to express our opinions openly.

But they fought and died pledging allegiance, saluting the flag, and being respectful of the symbols of our country.

[Guest Guest]

The pledge helps our country by letting us take a moment to reflect on some of the foundational ideas of our country.

When Paul and Matt choose not to stand for the pledge it is disrespectful and self serving. Don't feel sorry for them, they love and crave the attention.

Sitting quietly is not disrespectful.

Forcing people to say things or participate in rituals is disrespectful. Calling them names and questioning their motives, which you know nothing about, is even more disrespectful.

You could say that this is a difference of opinion, but the truth is, you're just wrong.

[Guest Guest]

But they fought and died pledging allegiance, saluting the flag, and being respectful of the symbols of our country.

If they were good soldiers, they died for the freedom of people to disagree with them.

Besides, you don't know how they fought and died. That's just your imagination at work. You're making it up.

[Guest Guest]

Paul, from what I understood, it was the songs and those words in the pledge that kepy the high moral of our men & women

going, sticking together singing when they were sad or scared and standing up because they believed that the pledge was an oath to the country that they fought for. WWI, WWII, all the way back to the Revolutionary War, songs of love of our country were the binding force for our men & women, so shame on me, no I don't think so, I was at the ceremonies on Veterans Day, you know how many people came out to thank a vet? count your fingers & toes, that was it. So no shame on me

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Soldiers in trenches aren't singing songs or reciting pledges, they're trying to survive! A few of them might be praying, but they're doing it individually, each in his own way.

[Guest Paul]

The pledge helps our country by letting us take a moment to reflect on some of the foundational ideas of our country.

When Paul and Matt choose not to stand for the pledge it is disrespectful and self serving. Don't feel sorry for them, they love and crave the attention.

People merit respect. Principles are to be kept. When you presume to judge my motives, which you know not, you are being disrespectful. That violates, but does not diminish, my dignity and the principle of not presuming to judge others. Amazing how many times that one is violated in a supposedly Christian community.

A symbol merits no respect in itself. It symbol can mean anything. You're turning the pledge into a symbol of forced participation.

[Guest Keith]

But they fought and died pledging allegiance, saluting the flag, and being respectful of the symbols of our country.

That may well be, but it's not the point. I do choose to stand, recite hand over heart etc. I don't care to see people who don't but that is where it ends.

[Guest Paul]

Paul, from what I understood, it was the songs and those words in the pledge that kepy the high moral of our men & women

going, sticking together singing when they were sad or scared and standing up because they believed that the pledge was an oath to the country that they fought for. WWI, WWII, all the way back to the Revolutionary War, songs of love of our country were the binding force for our men & women, so shame on me, no I don't think so, I was at the ceremonies on Veterans Day, you know how many people came out to thank a vet? count your fingers & toes, that was it. So no shame on me

So apparently most people in this community do not share your view of what really matters. Apparently reciting the pledge throughout the Kearny school system has not instilled a sufficient sense of patriotism to bring more than a few people out on Veterans' Day. I don't think it's a big deal, but you do. If you're right, then obviously the pledge isn't working. Maybe it's time to try another approach, like giving students a daily one-minute lesson about patriotism - an example of real patriotism every day. Now there's a daily practice worth supporting! If you propose it, I will support you.

Speedy, I don’t know how you can say that songs and pledges keep soldiers going. It’s just not true. Soldiers derive their motivation from the will to survive and a sense of common purpose – they’re defending a country and their loved ones. If your claim was true, every army would run on songs and pledges; that is just pure fantasy. Soldiers bond together in common purpose, not because of a song.

And even if your claim was true, so what? A schoolroom isn’t a battlefield. If a song or a pledge lifts a soldier or a particular group of soldiers, then let them sing/say it; just as I have no problem with students reciting the pledge, per se. You seem to insist on missing the point. We want to train good citizens. If the way this is being handled is an indication, I have to say we’re not doing a very good job of it. What I have seen via KHS is exactly what I would expect to see in a culture that has replaced ideals with rituals. The evidence is all over the place, and that’s why I have become so involved in this. I do not like what I am seeing.

Autonomous said it brilliantly: “The Pledge of Allegiance is a ritual. To those who engage in it with introspection it can be meaningful, while some cannot because of the two added words. I do in fact stand for the pledge, but as an atheist I can certainly understand why the "under God" bit makes that a difficult proposition for others. You are absolutely right-to people like Patriot the ritual has taken place of the ideal. It is a very primitive way of thinking-ritual as cultural identity. Since you don't take part, you become the Other, and to primitive morality empathy only extends to their own group. This way of thinking is in fact necessary to allow injustices such as the rise of the Nazis-or even our own actions as defining anyone opposing us as a terrorist so that anything we do to them is alright.” http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93112

Autonomous also wrote this, which is very apt coming from a soldier: “Answer this-how precisely does not reciting the pledge disrespect our soldiers? I didn't fight for the pledge, I fought for my country and the ideals upon which it stands.” So there you have it, a soldier disagrees with you. I wouldn’t be respecting Autonomous’ service if I turned my back on the principles he fought to preserve. Your values are completely upside-down.

So if you want a true and intelligent discussion, address the points Autonomous makes:

1. Why cannot individuals be free to exercise individual conscience regarding the pledge of allegiance, and be fully respected, and their choice honored, if they choose not to participate?

2. What is the significance of the ritual taking place of the ideal? (Autonomous puts it brilliantly.)

3. What does making someone like me “the Other” do to a community or a country?

4. Does it ever bother you that your thought process does in fact reflect what Autonomous calls a primitive morality and thought process? Study some anthropology if you don’t understand his point. He’s absolutely right. You’re acting more like a gorilla than a rational human being. What about that? (And don’t give me the usual blather about how I’m forcing you to think. I can’t force you to do anything, but it would be nice if you would think.)

5. What is the connection between your attitude and what happened in Nazi Germany? What are the similarities and what are the differences?

If people would truly think about those critical points, we could have a good and important discussion. I invite it.

[Guest Guest]

The pledge helps our country by letting us take a moment to reflect on some of the foundational ideas of our country.

Good for you. I take you at your word, even though I don’t know if it really means that to you. Maybe those are just empty words that express what you think it should mean. A lot of people say the pledge because it’s expected, that’s the only reason. They don’t see it the way you see it. Some of those people may be equally as good citizens as you.

That’s why you should also take Matthew at his word. I can only imagine what it must have been like for him, sitting in his chair day after day while everyone around him stood and recited the pledge. Don’t assume why he did it. That’s wrong. That’s judging. If you a Christian, you are commanded not to do that. Take him at his word, just as I take you at yours.

Sitting there day after day, he probably reflected on the idea that America stands for (or is supposed to stand for) freedom, including the freedom to disagree and be different. He may have thought gratefully toward the soldiers who have protected and preserved that freedom. And then, he might have thought, it wasn’t only the soldiers who have protected and preserved our freedom. It was also the people like himself, the dissenters who risked their popularity and even their lives to preserve freedom amid their fellow citizens who wanted to throw it away. It was people like Rosa Parks, who refused to move to the back of the bus while everyone around her either hated her or went along with what everyone else was doing. Maybe he was trying to be a little bit like her, or maybe he just learned from her example and wanted to do what was right.

If Matthew thought any of those things, then his actions during the pledge were also a reminder, not only to himself but to everyone around him. And maybe, just maybe, that way of reflecting on our country is more meaningful and more important than your way. Matthew had to take a risk and actually stand up for what the pledge is supposed to be about – by sitting down and refusing to say it. It’s more meaningful because it was his unique contribution to an understanding of patriotism in Kearny, as opposed to just going along with the crowd.

That’s what a true patriot does. He uses his own abilities and his own understanding of democracy to make his own contribution. We need soldiers, but we also need teachers, factory workers, garbage collectors, artists, doctors, lawyers, bakers, butchers, etc. I don't expect everyone to be a soldier. Some people are not capable of it. Same is true of anything. America’s national motto is e pluribus unum, which means “in many, one.” With all due respect, Matthew seems to understand that better than you do. Here's why I say that:

When Paul and Matt choose not to stand for the pledge it is disrespectful and self serving. Don't feel sorry for them, they love and crave the attention.

In that, not good for you. Shame on you. That's a rotten and ignorant and presumptous thing to say. It's not for you to say why another person does what he does.

That is what Matthew’s quiet protest has shown me. Those who have condemned him for it are the ones who have made all the noise.

[Guest Guest]

People merit respect. Principles are to be kept. When you presume to judge my motives, which you know not, you are being disrespectful. That violates, but does not diminish, my dignity and the principle of not presuming to judge others. Amazing how many times that one is violated in a supposedly Christian community.

A symbol merits no respect in itself. It symbol can mean anything. You're turning the pledge into a symbol of forced participation.

You've revealed your motives here ad naseum.

[Guest Guest]

So apparently most people in this community do not share your view of what really matters. Apparently reciting the pledge throughout the Kearny school system has not instilled a sufficient sense of patriotism to bring more than a few people out on Veterans' Day. I don't think it's a big deal, but you do. If you're right, then obviously the pledge isn't working. Maybe it's time to try another approach, like giving students a daily one-minute lesson about patriotism - an example of real patriotism every day. Now there's a daily practice worth supporting! If you propose it, I will support you.

Speedy, I don’t know how you can say that songs and pledges keep soldiers going. It’s just not true. Soldiers derive their motivation from the will to survive and a sense of common purpose – they’re defending a country and their loved ones. If your claim was true, every army would run on songs and pledges; that is just pure fantasy. Soldiers bond together in common purpose, not because of a song.

And even if your claim was true, so what? A schoolroom isn’t a battlefield. If a song or a pledge lifts a soldier or a particular group of soldiers, then let them sing/say it; just as I have no problem with students reciting the pledge, per se. You seem to insist on missing the point. We want to train good citizens. If the way this is being handled is an indication, I have to say we’re not doing a very good job of it. What I have seen via KHS is exactly what I would expect to see in a culture that has replaced ideals with rituals. The evidence is all over the place, and that’s why I have become so involved in this. I do not like what I am seeing.

Autonomous said it brilliantly: “The Pledge of Allegiance is a ritual. To those who engage in it with introspection it can be meaningful, while some cannot because of the two added words. I do in fact stand for the pledge, but as an atheist I can certainly understand why the "under God" bit makes that a difficult proposition for others. You are absolutely right-to people like Patriot the ritual has taken place of the ideal. It is a very primitive way of thinking-ritual as cultural identity. Since you don't take part, you become the Other, and to primitive morality empathy only extends to their own group. This way of thinking is in fact necessary to allow injustices such as the rise of the Nazis-or even our own actions as defining anyone opposing us as a terrorist so that anything we do to them is alright.” http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93112

Autonomous also wrote this, which is very apt coming from a soldier: “Answer this-how precisely does not reciting the pledge disrespect our soldiers? I didn't fight for the pledge, I fought for my country and the ideals upon which it stands.” So there you have it, a soldier disagrees with you. I wouldn’t be respecting Autonomous’ service if I turned my back on the principles he fought to preserve. Your values are completely upside-down.

So if you want a true and intelligent discussion, address the points Autonomous makes:

1. Why cannot individuals be free to exercise individual conscience regarding the pledge of allegiance, and be fully respected, and their choice honored, if they choose not to participate?

2. What is the significance of the ritual taking place of the ideal? (Autonomous puts it brilliantly.)

3. What does making someone like me “the Other” do to a community or a country?

4. Does it ever bother you that your thought process does in fact reflect what Autonomous calls a primitive morality and thought process? Study some anthropology if you don’t understand his point. He’s absolutely right. You’re acting more like a gorilla than a rational human being. What about that? (And don’t give me the usual blather about how I’m forcing you to think. I can’t force you to do anything, but it would be nice if you would think.)

5. What is the connection between your attitude and what happened in Nazi Germany? What are the similarities and what are the differences?

If people would truly think about those critical points, we could have a good and important discussion. I invite it.

I guess you missed the part about the effect the flag raising, a mere symbol, had on the morale of soldiers fighting on Iwo Jima. This is just one of numerous examples.

[Guest Guest]

Good for you. I take you at your word, even though I don’t know if it really means that to you. Maybe those are just empty words that express what you think it should mean. A lot of people say the pledge because it’s expected, that’s the only reason. They don’t see it the way you see it. Some of those people may be equally as good citizens as you.

That’s why you should also take Matthew at his word. I can only imagine what it must have been like for him, sitting in his chair day after day while everyone around him stood and recited the pledge. Don’t assume why he did it. That’s wrong. That’s judging. If you a Christian, you are commanded not to do that. Take him at his word, just as I take you at yours.

Sitting there day after day, he probably reflected on the idea that America stands for (or is supposed to stand for) freedom, including the freedom to disagree and be different. He may have thought gratefully toward the soldiers who have protected and preserved that freedom. And then, he might have thought, it wasn’t only the soldiers who have protected and preserved our freedom. It was also the people like himself, the dissenters who risked their popularity and even their lives to preserve freedom amid their fellow citizens who wanted to throw it away. It was people like Rosa Parks, who refused to move to the back of the bus while everyone around her either hated her or went along with what everyone else was doing. Maybe he was trying to be a little bit like her, or maybe he just learned from her example and wanted to do what was right.

If Matthew thought any of those things, then his actions during the pledge were also a reminder, not only to himself but to everyone around him. And maybe, just maybe, that way of reflecting on our country is more meaningful and more important than your way. Matthew had to take a risk and actually stand up for what the pledge is supposed to be about – by sitting down and refusing to say it. It’s more meaningful because it was his unique contribution to an understanding of patriotism in Kearny, as opposed to just going along with the crowd.

That’s what a true patriot does. He uses his own abilities and his own understanding of democracy to make his own contribution. We need soldiers, but we also need teachers, factory workers, garbage collectors, artists, doctors, lawyers, bakers, butchers, etc. I don't expect everyone to be a soldier. Some people are not capable of it. Same is true of anything. America’s national motto is e pluribus unum, which means “in many, one.” With all due respect, Matthew seems to understand that better than you do. Here's why I say that:

In that, not good for you. Shame on you. That's a rotten and ignorant and presumptous thing to say. It's not for you to say why another person does what he does.

That is what Matthew’s quiet protest has shown me. Those who have condemned him for it are the ones who have made all the noise.

So you of course know Matthew's motives for doing his thing but no one else does. You're a bone head.

[Guest Guest]

You've revealed your motives here ad naseum.

From what I can see, his motives are that he believes in this issue and is willing to fight for it.

[Guest Paul]

You've revealed your motives here ad naseum.

No, you misjudge my motives ad nauseam. I'm the one who knows them, not you. You have to have an explanation that justifies you, so you make stuff up.

[WilliamK]

My own pledge of allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the principles on which it stands. I pledge allegiance to those great ideals from the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal and have unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I pledge allegiance to the freedom to think for ourselves, to speak our minds, and to decide for ourselves what we believe. I pledge allegiance to governance of, by, and for the people. I pledge allegiance to the military men and women who have sacrificed and served to protect this country and to keep it free. I pledge allegiance to the non-military people who exercise that freedom and who do all of the ordinary and extraordinary work that makes our country and our society worth protecting. I pledge allegiance to those who speak out in praise and admiration of our country when it does right, and to those who speak out in dissent when it does wrong.

I do not pledge allegiance to any symbol or ritual. Nor do I agree with any efforts to require or pressure school children or anyone else to do so. Self-proclaimed patriots who do not understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism will undoubtedly think less of me for this. But that is their failing, not mine. I accept their contempt, because to win their approval would require a moral failing on my part.