Mangin's Tax Spin

[Guest Guest]

Can you cite examples of stuff I said that leads you to this conclusion? This is not sarcastic--I'd really like to see where this mindset is coming from, because I myself know that there is no one whose word I take as gospel.

Regardless, Santos's statement WAS succinct, and that's basically all I said about it, with the expression "short, sweet, and to the point." Of course, when others are clamoring to stuff straw men into my mouth, it becomes difficult to see the simplicity of my statement.

Now, if I had said, "Let's see what excuse Mangin will make up for this" or something like that, it would have been a different story. That definitely would have had a tone of at least anti-Mangin sentiment. But no--all I said was that I was eager to see what his response would be, and that is because I've been apathetic about this subject for a while, so seeing this all come up, I want to hear what people have to say.

So again, stop trying to demonize me by putting words and motives into my mouth. I made a very simple statement--it's amazing the lengths some people will go to to try and make me look bad.

Believe me--if I felt strongly about it one way or the other, I would have said so. Even a semi-regular should know that. I'm not one to mince words, and I'm not subtle or cryptic in my statements. Read what is written, and stop trying to inject invented motivations and meanings into the things I write.

69661[/snapback]

So then tell us straight out if you agree with Santos' statement or not.

[Strife767]

So then tell us straight out if you agree with Santos' statement or not.

69712[/snapback]

If you were paying attention to my post...

"I've been apathetic about this subject for a while, so seeing this all come up, I want to hear what people have to say."

I haven't taken a position, and I don't consider myself well-informed enough to take what anyone says at face value right now.

Let's see what this post gets twisted to say...

[Guest Guest]

Well YOU are the one who seems to accept anything Santos states without question.  Mayor santos Lied in his interview with the Jersey Journal, when he clearly stated that Binding Arbitration was the reason that the salaries were as high as they were, when there HAD BEEN  no such arbitrations other than for the Fire Officers.  In the History of the Police and fire contracts there had never been any other instance where a contract had to be arbitrated bindingly and the town "Forced" to accept a settlement.  Subsequently Mayor santos seems to have Amended his position to now talk about "Outside Mediators"  Yet he STILL skirts the fact that HE and the Council Signed off on every contract.  Generally blaming the amount of time that they take on Mr D'Arco.  It's a VERY long cry from a certain Councilman Santos at a Meeting a number of years ago Stating "NEVER AGAIN" would the town allow the contracts get to the point where they would have to pay out years of Retroactive Pay..yet every contract since he's been mayor has been drawn out, and in the end the town seems to settle for precisely what the unions offered (Which from what i've bene told is at or below the average for other departments (Police, Fire, and Town Workers) around the rest of the county and the state, and generally LESS than Binding Arbitration awards.

To whoever answered you, I appreciate the backup but i AM capable of fighting my own battles, even though it might take a few days to respond since i dont check this place every day, and, While i might agree with the sentiment concerning Strife    The Language was a little more forceful than i prefer.  But then again Strife seems to be a typical Partisan.. he'll go with his party line, no matter WHAT the facts might actually indicate.  And before i'm branded as a Neo-Con (Which his ilk seem to lay on Anyone who disagrees with them) I'm a registered independant, although i Do lean towards conservative values....as Radagast knows well.

69627[/snapback]

You're missing the point about binding arbitration. It is a sword constantly hanging over both sides, which forces them to negotiate contracts within a certain range. That is true regardless whether it is actually used in any particular case.

[Guest Studies and Observations]

Mangin Spin Redux didn't take a position.  She or He simply asked a question.  By your response, it's obvious that it's a question you don't even want to entertain.  Whatever your motivation, whether it's based on a genuine concern about the town or a personal concern about your salary, who decided you can tell us what we can discuss and what we can't discuss?  Shouldn't the decision be made through the democratic process?  Isn't the voter ultimately the decider on taxes?

By the way, I'm a llifelonger, never waited more than a couple of minutes for an officer, even in 1995/96.

69674[/snapback]

Where did i say it shouldnt or COULDNT be discussed?? Who are YOU to put words in my mouth??? Everyone thinks it would be so easy to cut Police and Fire Costs..yet No one seems to want to understand that Cutting Costs means cutting people, which means cutting services, and cutting services means in the end, less safety for the taxpayers. But, since you want to discuss, lets do so..... what is YOUR solution???

The last one was to reduce numbers in both Departments..and by doing so they screwed the taxpayers yet again. No matter what you may have experienced, Response times did go down, EVERY employee of both agencies was placed in harm's way more than normal, calls WERE Prioritized, and the Politician's answer was to direct the Chiefs to order that Members of the PD and FD were not to discuss how many members were working with the public or face disciplinary action. (And this is no "Rumor" someone showed me the memo from the Chief at that time). Apparently some of the guys on the PD in response to pointed questions about why they were taking so long to get to calls flat-out stated that they were working with bare minimums..and the calls to the Mayor at the time weren't well recieved and as usual, rather than address the problem, they just deny it's existance. You tell me if YOU would feel safe knowing that there are only 3 officers working from 2pm to 10pm on a Friday or Saturday night (as opposed to 6-8)??? or having MAYBE 13 Firefighters on duty (including captains, and NOT including the 3 guys in South Kearny all alone with no help closer than 5-10 minutes away), as Opposed to the Current minimums of 4 per engine?? That was the reality then...just ASK one of the older guys..they dont bite, and in fact for the most party they're pretty friendly and just as frustrated with the situation as you are.

Just like the current administration is screwing the taxpayers by dragging out EVERY contract with this town, then Blaming the employees for it. The town unions have been on the brink of Binding arbitration numerous times..yet even the arbitrators egnerally agree that the Town's position is wrong..which is when the town finally settles down and actually engages in Negotiations. (Oh and as far as the unions "Choosing" arbitrators..they ALL work for the state, they ALL have to be vetted by the League of Municipalities..which then gets annyoed when they actually do their jobs, and Arbitrate Objectively based on the facts of the case, rather than what's best for one party ie. the Towns ) The Politicians (on all levels) Scream about pensions..yet it's the POLITICIANS incompetence, and in many cases Corruption that has put the pension systems in this state into the state they are in. During the years that the Town wasnt making ANY Pension Contributions, the Town did not, as was intended, put the money aside..they spent it, and when the bill from that Loan was due..who did they blame?? The Employees. Morristown, conversely (With a PD about the same size as ours) did NOT just spend the money, they put it aside, and when it came time to reimburse the pensions..lo and behold The money was actually THERE!!! When the Town participated in the PD and FD buyout in the 90's, and failed to pay their obligations when they were supposed to, who did they blame for the Budget Shortfall?? The Cops and Firefighters. See the pattern here??? They do it every time..yet the same people who wouldnt trust a politician to tell them the color of the sky (and party doesnt figure into it, lets face it they ALL have problems) yet when they point a finger and say "Blame THEM!!!!" You all just follow along like Sheep.

Since this started out with Police and Fire Costs, here's one example from each department of how the town has "Cut Costs". The Curbs, Street Signs, and Lines used to be the responsibility of the PD. They had 2 older guys assigned to that duty. When the PD Did it, EVERY August, every crosswalk was painted in town in time for school to start. Once a year, EVERY curb was either painted outright, or touched up if it didnt need a full paintjob. Street signs, Stop signs, No Parking signs, all were replaced regularly because they were made in-house. Cutting numbers on the PD did away with that, and put that duty onto DPW...Now, the lines and curbs arent done unless there's a complaint. Take a walks around the side streets, and see how many yellow curbs are even visible anymore. Signs are faded or missing outright. Is this the fault of DPW?? Nope, they already had other duties that they were responsible for BEfore this was added on to them. Yet by "Cutting Costs" on the Police Department, now a job that was done isnt. Yet everyone blames the parking problems on the "PD not doing their jobs on one hand, yet on the other trying to get out of tickets beecause they didnt see that the curb was yellow. They cut the position of Carpenter. and Linemen for the Fire Dept. Now, when something needs to be fixed, instead of a Firefighter that was already working taking care of it (and yes i know they recieved compensation for the position) Now it has to go out to DPW, or an outside contractor if they cant handle it..in the Long run which costs the taxpayers more??? With the Linemen, if there was a problem with a Traffic Signal, it was fixed immediately, day or night if there was a light out, or a light wasnt functioning the Lineman who was already on duty went out and took care of it, whether it was something as simple as changing a bulp, or re-wiring a control, box...now, the outside contractor has to be called once again.costing the town More in the long run, than it cost to have the guy there.

You want to cut Salaries?? Hey go right ahead..but dont complain then when the quality of the employees you DO hire plummets.. Iremember the times when people used to fight to be a Cop or Firefighter in kearny..now they cant get people to take the testa. they could save money by hiring people from other departments that want to lateral here..but they wont pay them for the experience that they are getting, so they have to pay a salary to someone to go to the academy as well as the academy costs with no garuntees that the rookie Officer or Firefighter can hack the job, rather than paying a little more to entice people who can and Have already done it in other places. In the end, you get what you pay for folks..as a very Wise man one put it, TANSTAAFL.

So, where are the savings??? The BOE Budget increases every year..gets voted down by the taxpayers, then gets mandated by the state anyway, yet they BOE is always crying poor and talking about cutting teachers..of course they never bother to talk about cutting the Administrators who are making 6 figures..Nope, they blame it all on the regular teachers. Class sizes increase as the population increases..but it's the everyday joe teachers who get threatened with losing their jobs. So, let the politicians play the blame game all they want.. all it means is that YOU foot the bill.

But hey..go right ahead..ascribe whatever "Motives" you want.. I'm a Cop..or is it a Firefighter?? or am i maybe a Teacher!! yeah that's it!! Not someone who's concerned about the possible unintended consequences of playing these games.

[Guest Is it Okay?]

Where did i say it shouldnt or COULDNT be discussed??  Who are YOU to put words in my mouth???  Everyone thinks it would be so easy to cut Police and Fire Costs..yet No one seems to want to understand that Cutting Costs means cutting people, which means cutting services, and cutting services means in the end, less safety for the taxpayers.    But, since you want to discuss, lets do so..... what is YOUR solution??? 

    The last one was to reduce numbers in both Departments..and by doing so they screwed the taxpayers yet again.  No matter what you may have experienced, Response times did go down, EVERY employee of both agencies was placed in harm's way more than normal, calls WERE Prioritized, and the Politician's answer was to direct the Chiefs to order that Members of the PD and FD were not to discuss how many members were working with the public or face disciplinary action. (And this is no "Rumor"  someone showed me the memo from the Chief at that time).  Apparently some of the guys on the PD in response to pointed questions about why they were taking so long to get to calls flat-out stated that they were working with bare minimums..and the calls to the Mayor at the time weren't well recieved and as usual, rather than address the problem, they just deny it's existance.  You tell me if YOU would feel safe knowing that there are only 3 officers working from 2pm to 10pm on a Friday or Saturday night (as opposed to 6-8)???  or having MAYBE 13 Firefighters on duty (including captains, and NOT including the 3 guys in South Kearny all alone with no help closer than 5-10 minutes away), as Opposed to the  Current minimums of 4 per engine??  That was the reality then...just ASK one of the older guys..they dont bite, and in fact for the most party they're pretty friendly and just as frustrated with the situation as you are.

    Just like the current administration is screwing the taxpayers by dragging out EVERY contract with this town, then Blaming the employees for it.  The town unions have been on the brink of Binding arbitration numerous times..yet even the arbitrators egnerally agree that the Town's position is wrong..which is when the town finally settles down and actually engages in Negotiations.  (Oh and as far as the unions "Choosing" arbitrators..they ALL work for the state, they ALL have to be vetted by the League of Municipalities..which then gets annyoed when they actually do their jobs, and Arbitrate Objectively based on the facts of the case, rather than what's best for one party ie. the Towns )  The Politicians (on all levels) Scream about pensions..yet it's the POLITICIANS incompetence, and in many cases Corruption that has put the pension systems in this state into the state they are in.  During the years that the Town wasnt making ANY Pension Contributions, the Town did not, as was intended, put the money aside..they spent it, and when the bill from that Loan was due..who did they blame??  The Employees. Morristown, conversely (With a PD about the same size as ours) did NOT just spend the money, they put it aside, and when it came time to reimburse the pensions..lo and behold The money was actually THERE!!!  When the Town participated in the PD and FD buyout in the 90's, and failed to pay their obligations when they were supposed to, who did they blame for the Budget Shortfall??  The Cops and Firefighters.  See the pattern here???  They do it every time..yet the same people who wouldnt trust a politician to tell them the color of the sky (and party doesnt figure into it, lets face it they ALL have problems) yet when they point a finger and say "Blame THEM!!!!"  You all just follow along like Sheep.

Since this started out with Police and Fire Costs, here's one example from each department of how the town has "Cut Costs".  The Curbs, Street Signs,  and Lines used to be the responsibility of the PD.  They had 2 older guys assigned to that duty.  When the PD Did it, EVERY August, every crosswalk was painted in town in time for school to start.  Once a year, EVERY curb was either painted outright, or touched up if it didnt need a full paintjob.  Street signs, Stop signs, No Parking signs, all were replaced regularly because they were made in-house.  Cutting numbers on the PD did away with that, and put that duty onto DPW...Now, the lines and curbs arent done unless there's a complaint.  Take a walks around the side streets, and see how many yellow curbs are even visible anymore.  Signs are faded or missing outright.  Is this the fault of DPW??  Nope,  they already had other duties that they were responsible for BEfore this was added on to them.  Yet by "Cutting Costs" on the Police Department, now a job that was done isnt.  Yet everyone blames the parking problems on the "PD not doing their jobs on one hand, yet on the other trying to get out of tickets beecause they didnt see that the curb was yellow.  They cut the position of Carpenter. and Linemen for the Fire Dept.  Now, when something needs to be fixed, instead of a Firefighter that was already working taking care of it (and yes i know they recieved compensation for the position)  Now it has to go out to DPW, or an outside contractor if they cant handle it..in the Long run which costs the taxpayers more???  With the Linemen, if there was a problem with a Traffic Signal, it was fixed immediately, day or night if there was a light out, or a light wasnt functioning the Lineman who was already on duty went out and took care of it, whether it was something as simple as changing a bulp, or re-wiring a control, box...now, the outside contractor has to be called once again.costing the town More in the long run, than it cost to have the guy there.

You want to cut Salaries?? Hey go right ahead..but dont complain then when the quality of the employees you DO hire plummets..  Iremember the times when people used to fight to be a Cop or Firefighter in kearny..now they cant get people to take the testa.  they could save money by hiring people from other departments that want to lateral here..but they wont pay them for the experience that they are getting, so they have to pay a salary to someone to go to the academy as well as the academy costs with no garuntees that the rookie Officer or Firefighter can hack the job, rather than paying a little more to entice people who can and Have already done it in other places.  In the end, you get what you pay for folks..as a very Wise man one put it,  TANSTAAFL.

So, where are the savings???  The BOE Budget increases every year..gets voted down by the taxpayers, then gets mandated by the state anyway, yet they BOE is always crying poor and talking about cutting teachers..of course they never bother to talk about cutting the Administrators who are making 6 figures..Nope, they blame it all on the regular teachers.  Class sizes increase as the population increases..but it's the everyday joe teachers who get threatened with losing their jobs.  So, let the politicians play the blame game all they want.. all it means is that YOU foot the bill.

But hey..go right ahead..ascribe whatever "Motives" you want.. I'm a Cop..or is it a Firefighter?? or am i maybe a Teacher!! yeah that's it!! Not someone who's concerned about the possible unintended consequences of playing these games.

69753[/snapback]

Good, at least now we're talking.

I agree with some of what you said. I wouldn't want a tax cut that compromises safety. I wouldn't cut personnel. To the contrary, we need more officers on the street. But do we need 5 chiefs and 7 captains for a cost of almost $2 million a year for just those 12 guys? Should a first year Sergant make $90,000? You can't scare the public by saying that the only way of saving money with police means cutting officers on the beat. How's this instead - just 1 chief, 3 captains, quite a bit less in lieutenants and sergants, and hire more officers with some of the money you saved, and still wind up with an increase in overall police personnel?

As to pension costs, how much does a retiree from the police department get a year in pension after 20 years on the job? how about 25? How many times have benefit levels been increased in the past 10 years? My guess is that the answers to these questions is a good part of the reason why the pension system is underfunded, it's not just bad decisions by politicians.

I also don't get the Morristown reference. I copied below a recent article about pension costs there.

Growing pension bills bust Morris budgets

BY MICHAEL DAIGLE

DAILY RECORD

Steep hikes in public employee pension contributions for next year are even

higher than anticipated and could threaten efforts to reduce property taxes,

several county and municipal officials said.

"This is a total disaster. We are seeing 30 to 50 percent increases, not 20

percent," said Denville Mayor Gene Feyl, who also is a Morris freeholder.

Some officials said the recently released 2008 pension contribution estimates

for their government represents nearly half of the 4 percent budget cap

amount allowed under the new rules imposed in the 2008 state budget.

That will mean less money for other cost increases such as insurance or

salaries, let alone road repairs.

The pension estimates affect every public body that has employees in the

state pension system, such as libraries, sewer districts and boards of

education whose nonteaching

staff is covered.

Some examples:

• Parsippany: Total 2008 estimated pension contribution is $3,498,363, compared with $2,101,431 for

2007, a 66 percent increase.

• Dover: $1,007,098 for 2008, compared with $615,728 for 2007, a 64 percent hike.

• Denville: $982,196 for 2008, compared with $610,828 for 2007, a 60 percent increase.

nMorristown: $2,010,374 for 2008, compared with $1,273,530 for 2007, a 58 percent increase.

[Guest charlie brown]

Where did i say it shouldnt or COULDNT be discussed??  Who are YOU to put words in my mouth???  Everyone thinks it would be so easy to cut Police and Fire Costs..yet No one seems to want to understand that Cutting Costs means cutting people, which means cutting services, and cutting services means in the end, less safety for the taxpayers.    But, since you want to discuss, lets do so..... what is YOUR solution??? 

    The last one was to reduce numbers in both Departments..and by doing so they screwed the taxpayers yet again.  No matter what you may have experienced, Response times did go down, EVERY employee of both agencies was placed in harm's way more than normal, calls WERE Prioritized, and the Politician's answer was to direct the Chiefs to order that Members of the PD and FD were not to discuss how many members were working with the public or face disciplinary action. (And this is no "Rumor"  someone showed me the memo from the Chief at that time).  Apparently some of the guys on the PD in response to pointed questions about why they were taking so long to get to calls flat-out stated that they were working with bare minimums..and the calls to the Mayor at the time weren't well recieved and as usual, rather than address the problem, they just deny it's existance.  You tell me if YOU would feel safe knowing that there are only 3 officers working from 2pm to 10pm on a Friday or Saturday night (as opposed to 6-8)???  or having MAYBE 13 Firefighters on duty (including captains, and NOT including the 3 guys in South Kearny all alone with no help closer than 5-10 minutes away), as Opposed to the  Current minimums of 4 per engine??  That was the reality then...just ASK one of the older guys..they dont bite, and in fact for the most party they're pretty friendly and just as frustrated with the situation as you are.

    Just like the current administration is screwing the taxpayers by dragging out EVERY contract with this town, then Blaming the employees for it.  The town unions have been on the brink of Binding arbitration numerous times..yet even the arbitrators egnerally agree that the Town's position is wrong..which is when the town finally settles down and actually engages in Negotiations.  (Oh and as far as the unions "Choosing" arbitrators..they ALL work for the state, they ALL have to be vetted by the League of Municipalities..which then gets annyoed when they actually do their jobs, and Arbitrate Objectively based on the facts of the case, rather than what's best for one party ie. the Towns )  The Politicians (on all levels) Scream about pensions..yet it's the POLITICIANS incompetence, and in many cases Corruption that has put the pension systems in this state into the state they are in.  During the years that the Town wasnt making ANY Pension Contributions, the Town did not, as was intended, put the money aside..they spent it, and when the bill from that Loan was due..who did they blame??  The Employees. Morristown, conversely (With a PD about the same size as ours) did NOT just spend the money, they put it aside, and when it came time to reimburse the pensions..lo and behold The money was actually THERE!!!  When the Town participated in the PD and FD buyout in the 90's, and failed to pay their obligations when they were supposed to, who did they blame for the Budget Shortfall??  The Cops and Firefighters.  See the pattern here???  They do it every time..yet the same people who wouldnt trust a politician to tell them the color of the sky (and party doesnt figure into it, lets face it they ALL have problems) yet when they point a finger and say "Blame THEM!!!!"  You all just follow along like Sheep.

Since this started out with Police and Fire Costs, here's one example from each department of how the town has "Cut Costs".  The Curbs, Street Signs,  and Lines used to be the responsibility of the PD.  They had 2 older guys assigned to that duty.  When the PD Did it, EVERY August, every crosswalk was painted in town in time for school to start.  Once a year, EVERY curb was either painted outright, or touched up if it didnt need a full paintjob.  Street signs, Stop signs, No Parking signs, all were replaced regularly because they were made in-house.  Cutting numbers on the PD did away with that, and put that duty onto DPW...Now, the lines and curbs arent done unless there's a complaint.  Take a walks around the side streets, and see how many yellow curbs are even visible anymore.  Signs are faded or missing outright.  Is this the fault of DPW??  Nope,  they already had other duties that they were responsible for BEfore this was added on to them.  Yet by "Cutting Costs" on the Police Department, now a job that was done isnt.  Yet everyone blames the parking problems on the "PD not doing their jobs on one hand, yet on the other trying to get out of tickets beecause they didnt see that the curb was yellow.  They cut the position of Carpenter. and Linemen for the Fire Dept.  Now, when something needs to be fixed, instead of a Firefighter that was already working taking care of it (and yes i know they recieved compensation for the position)  Now it has to go out to DPW, or an outside contractor if they cant handle it..in the Long run which costs the taxpayers more???  With the Linemen, if there was a problem with a Traffic Signal, it was fixed immediately, day or night if there was a light out, or a light wasnt functioning the Lineman who was already on duty went out and took care of it, whether it was something as simple as changing a bulp, or re-wiring a control, box...now, the outside contractor has to be called once again.costing the town More in the long run, than it cost to have the guy there.

You want to cut Salaries?? Hey go right ahead..but dont complain then when the quality of the employees you DO hire plummets..  Iremember the times when people used to fight to be a Cop or Firefighter in kearny..now they cant get people to take the testa.  they could save money by hiring people from other departments that want to lateral here..but they wont pay them for the experience that they are getting, so they have to pay a salary to someone to go to the academy as well as the academy costs with no garuntees that the rookie Officer or Firefighter can hack the job, rather than paying a little more to entice people who can and Have already done it in other places.  In the end, you get what you pay for folks..as a very Wise man one put it,  TANSTAAFL.

So, where are the savings???  The BOE Budget increases every year..gets voted down by the taxpayers, then gets mandated by the state anyway, yet they BOE is always crying poor and talking about cutting teachers..of course they never bother to talk about cutting the Administrators who are making 6 figures..Nope, they blame it all on the regular teachers.  Class sizes increase as the population increases..but it's the everyday joe teachers who get threatened with losing their jobs.  So, let the politicians play the blame game all they want.. all it means is that YOU foot the bill.

But hey..go right ahead..ascribe whatever "Motives" you want.. I'm a Cop..or is it a Firefighter?? or am i maybe a Teacher!! yeah that's it!! Not someone who's concerned about the possible unintended consequences of playing these games.

69753[/snapback]

I lost you at hello.

good grief!

[Guest Guest]

Where did i say it shouldnt or COULDNT be discussed??  Who are YOU to put words in my mouth???  Everyone thinks it would be so easy to cut Police and Fire Costs..yet No one seems to want to understand that Cutting Costs means cutting people, which means cutting services, and cutting services means in the end, less safety for the taxpayers.    But, since you want to discuss, lets do so..... what is YOUR solution??? 

    The last one was to reduce numbers in both Departments..and by doing so they screwed the taxpayers yet again.  No matter what you may have experienced, Response times did go down, EVERY employee of both agencies was placed in harm's way more than normal, calls WERE Prioritized, and the Politician's answer was to direct the Chiefs to order that Members of the PD and FD were not to discuss how many members were working with the public or face disciplinary action. (And this is no "Rumor"  someone showed me the memo from the Chief at that time).  Apparently some of the guys on the PD in response to pointed questions about why they were taking so long to get to calls flat-out stated that they were working with bare minimums..and the calls to the Mayor at the time weren't well recieved and as usual, rather than address the problem, they just deny it's existance.  You tell me if YOU would feel safe knowing that there are only 3 officers working from 2pm to 10pm on a Friday or Saturday night (as opposed to 6-8)???  or having MAYBE 13 Firefighters on duty (including captains, and NOT including the 3 guys in South Kearny all alone with no help closer than 5-10 minutes away), as Opposed to the  Current minimums of 4 per engine??  That was the reality then...just ASK one of the older guys..they dont bite, and in fact for the most party they're pretty friendly and just as frustrated with the situation as you are.

    Just like the current administration is screwing the taxpayers by dragging out EVERY contract with this town, then Blaming the employees for it.  The town unions have been on the brink of Binding arbitration numerous times..yet even the arbitrators egnerally agree that the Town's position is wrong..which is when the town finally settles down and actually engages in Negotiations.  (Oh and as far as the unions "Choosing" arbitrators..they ALL work for the state, they ALL have to be vetted by the League of Municipalities..which then gets annyoed when they actually do their jobs, and Arbitrate Objectively based on the facts of the case, rather than what's best for one party ie. the Towns )  The Politicians (on all levels) Scream about pensions..yet it's the POLITICIANS incompetence, and in many cases Corruption that has put the pension systems in this state into the state they are in.  During the years that the Town wasnt making ANY Pension Contributions, the Town did not, as was intended, put the money aside..they spent it, and when the bill from that Loan was due..who did they blame??  The Employees. Morristown, conversely (With a PD about the same size as ours) did NOT just spend the money, they put it aside, and when it came time to reimburse the pensions..lo and behold The money was actually THERE!!!  When the Town participated in the PD and FD buyout in the 90's, and failed to pay their obligations when they were supposed to, who did they blame for the Budget Shortfall??  The Cops and Firefighters.  See the pattern here???  They do it every time..yet the same people who wouldnt trust a politician to tell them the color of the sky (and party doesnt figure into it, lets face it they ALL have problems) yet when they point a finger and say "Blame THEM!!!!"  You all just follow along like Sheep.

Since this started out with Police and Fire Costs, here's one example from each department of how the town has "Cut Costs".  The Curbs, Street Signs,  and Lines used to be the responsibility of the PD.  They had 2 older guys assigned to that duty.  When the PD Did it, EVERY August, every crosswalk was painted in town in time for school to start.  Once a year, EVERY curb was either painted outright, or touched up if it didnt need a full paintjob.  Street signs, Stop signs, No Parking signs, all were replaced regularly because they were made in-house.  Cutting numbers on the PD did away with that, and put that duty onto DPW...Now, the lines and curbs arent done unless there's a complaint.  Take a walks around the side streets, and see how many yellow curbs are even visible anymore.  Signs are faded or missing outright.  Is this the fault of DPW??  Nope,  they already had other duties that they were responsible for BEfore this was added on to them.  Yet by "Cutting Costs" on the Police Department, now a job that was done isnt.  Yet everyone blames the parking problems on the "PD not doing their jobs on one hand, yet on the other trying to get out of tickets beecause they didnt see that the curb was yellow.  They cut the position of Carpenter. and Linemen for the Fire Dept.  Now, when something needs to be fixed, instead of a Firefighter that was already working taking care of it (and yes i know they recieved compensation for the position)  Now it has to go out to DPW, or an outside contractor if they cant handle it..in the Long run which costs the taxpayers more???  With the Linemen, if there was a problem with a Traffic Signal, it was fixed immediately, day or night if there was a light out, or a light wasnt functioning the Lineman who was already on duty went out and took care of it, whether it was something as simple as changing a bulp, or re-wiring a control, box...now, the outside contractor has to be called once again.costing the town More in the long run, than it cost to have the guy there.

You want to cut Salaries?? Hey go right ahead..but dont complain then when the quality of the employees you DO hire plummets..  Iremember the times when people used to fight to be a Cop or Firefighter in kearny..now they cant get people to take the testa.  they could save money by hiring people from other departments that want to lateral here..but they wont pay them for the experience that they are getting, so they have to pay a salary to someone to go to the academy as well as the academy costs with no garuntees that the rookie Officer or Firefighter can hack the job, rather than paying a little more to entice people who can and Have already done it in other places.  In the end, you get what you pay for folks..as a very Wise man one put it,  TANSTAAFL.

So, where are the savings???  The BOE Budget increases every year..gets voted down by the taxpayers, then gets mandated by the state anyway, yet they BOE is always crying poor and talking about cutting teachers..of course they never bother to talk about cutting the Administrators who are making 6 figures..Nope, they blame it all on the regular teachers.  Class sizes increase as the population increases..but it's the everyday joe teachers who get threatened with losing their jobs.  So, let the politicians play the blame game all they want.. all it means is that YOU foot the bill.

But hey..go right ahead..ascribe whatever "Motives" you want.. I'm a Cop..or is it a Firefighter?? or am i maybe a Teacher!! yeah that's it!! Not someone who's concerned about the possible unintended consequences of playing these games.

69753[/snapback]

Very well said and your on the mark. Thanks for the truth.

[Guest Paul]

    The last one was to reduce numbers in both Departments..and by doing so they screwed the taxpayers yet again.  No matter what you may have experienced, Response times did go down, EVERY employee of both agencies was placed in harm's way more than normal, calls WERE Prioritized, and the Politician's answer was to direct the Chiefs to order that Members of the PD and FD were not to discuss how many members were working with the public or face disciplinary action. (And this is no "Rumor"  someone showed me the memo from the Chief at that time).  Apparently some of the guys on the PD in response to pointed questions about why they were taking so long to get to calls flat-out stated that they were working with bare minimums..and the calls to the Mayor at the time weren't well recieved and as usual, rather than address the problem, they just deny it's existance.  You tell me if YOU would feel safe knowing that there are only 3 officers working from 2pm to 10pm on a Friday or Saturday night (as opposed to 6-8)???  or having MAYBE 13 Firefighters on duty (including captains, and NOT including the 3 guys in South Kearny all alone with no help closer than 5-10 minutes away), as Opposed to the  Current minimums of 4 per engine??  That was the reality then...just ASK one of the older guys..they dont bite, and in fact for the most party they're pretty friendly and just as frustrated with the situation as you are.

    Just like the current administration is screwing the taxpayers by dragging out EVERY contract with this town, then Blaming the employees for it.  The town unions have been on the brink of Binding arbitration numerous times..yet even the arbitrators egnerally agree that the Town's position is wrong..which is when the town finally settles down and actually engages in Negotiations.  (Oh and as far as the unions "Choosing" arbitrators..they ALL work for the state, they ALL have to be vetted by the League of Municipalities..which then gets annyoed when they actually do their jobs, and Arbitrate Objectively based on the facts of the case, rather than what's best for one party ie. the Towns )  The Politicians (on all levels) Scream about pensions..yet it's the POLITICIANS incompetence, and in many cases Corruption that has put the pension systems in this state into the state they are in.  During the years that the Town wasnt making ANY Pension Contributions, the Town did not, as was intended, put the money aside..they spent it, and when the bill from that Loan was due..who did they blame??  The Employees. Morristown, conversely (With a PD about the same size as ours) did NOT just spend the money, they put it aside, and when it came time to reimburse the pensions..lo and behold The money was actually THERE!!!  When the Town participated in the PD and FD buyout in the 90's, and failed to pay their obligations when they were supposed to, who did they blame for the Budget Shortfall??  The Cops and Firefighters.  See the pattern here???  They do it every time..yet the same people who wouldnt trust a politician to tell them the color of the sky (and party doesnt figure into it, lets face it they ALL have problems) yet when they point a finger and say "Blame THEM!!!!"  You all just follow along like Sheep.

Since this started out with Police and Fire Costs, here's one example from each department of how the town has "Cut Costs".  The Curbs, Street Signs,  and Lines used to be the responsibility of the PD.  They had 2 older guys assigned to that duty.  When the PD Did it, EVERY August, every crosswalk was painted in town in time for school to start.  Once a year, EVERY curb was either painted outright, or touched up if it didnt need a full paintjob.  Street signs, Stop signs, No Parking signs, all were replaced regularly because they were made in-house.  Cutting numbers on the PD did away with that, and put that duty onto DPW...Now, the lines and curbs arent done unless there's a complaint.  Take a walks around the side streets, and see how many yellow curbs are even visible anymore.  Signs are faded or missing outright.  Is this the fault of DPW??  Nope,  they already had other duties that they were responsible for BEfore this was added on to them.  Yet by "Cutting Costs" on the Police Department, now a job that was done isnt.  Yet everyone blames the parking problems on the "PD not doing their jobs on one hand, yet on the other trying to get out of tickets beecause they didnt see that the curb was yellow.  They cut the position of Carpenter. and Linemen for the Fire Dept.  Now, when something needs to be fixed, instead of a Firefighter that was already working taking care of it (and yes i know they recieved compensation for the position)  Now it has to go out to DPW, or an outside contractor if they cant handle it..in the Long run which costs the taxpayers more???  With the Linemen, if there was a problem with a Traffic Signal, it was fixed immediately, day or night if there was a light out, or a light wasnt functioning the Lineman who was already on duty went out and took care of it, whether it was something as simple as changing a bulp, or re-wiring a control, box...now, the outside contractor has to be called once again.costing the town More in the long run, than it cost to have the guy there.

You want to cut Salaries?? Hey go right ahead..but dont complain then when the quality of the employees you DO hire plummets..  Iremember the times when people used to fight to be a Cop or Firefighter in kearny..now they cant get people to take the testa.  they could save money by hiring people from other departments that want to lateral here..but they wont pay them for the experience that they are getting, so they have to pay a salary to someone to go to the academy as well as the academy costs with no garuntees that the rookie Officer or Firefighter can hack the job, rather than paying a little more to entice people who can and Have already done it in other places.  In the end, you get what you pay for folks..as a very Wise man one put it,  TANSTAAFL.

So, where are the savings???  The BOE Budget increases every year..gets voted down by the taxpayers, then gets mandated by the state anyway, yet they BOE is always crying poor and talking about cutting teachers..of course they never bother to talk about cutting the Administrators who are making 6 figures..Nope, they blame it all on the regular teachers.  Class sizes increase as the population increases..but it's the everyday joe teachers who get threatened with losing their jobs.  So, let the politicians play the blame game all they want.. all it means is that YOU foot the bill.

But hey..go right ahead..ascribe whatever "Motives" you want.. I'm a Cop..or is it a Firefighter?? or am i maybe a Teacher!! yeah that's it!! Not someone who's concerned about the possible unintended consequences of playing these games.

69753[/snapback]

I’m just asking questions, because I don’t understand how what you’re writing affects our taxes. If it does, I want to know.

1. How does the town’s dragging out negotiations hurt us? Doesn’t that delay the resolution to the taxpayers’ benefit, since the wage increases are delayed? If not, why not? Please be specific.

2. To me, criticism of “the politicians” means nothing. Are you even referring to the same people each time you use this term? For example, if the state sets up the pension system, you can’t blame the town officials for that. How do you justify using a broad term like this? What does it accomplish? How does it help us figure out how to cut our taxes while retaining needed services (which at least you recognize as the other side of this coin)?

3. Tell me more about the six-figure salary administrators. How many are there? What do they do? What is their education and training? What are they paid in other towns? If this is a place where we might cut taxes, let’s explore it. Please be more specific.

[Guest Guest]

I’m just asking questions, because I don’t understand how what you’re writing affects our taxes. If it does, I want to know.

1. How does the town’s dragging out negotiations hurt us? Doesn’t that delay the resolution to the taxpayers’ benefit, since the wage increases are delayed? If not, why not? Please be specific.

2. To me, criticism of “the politicians” means nothing. Are you even referring to the same people each time you use this term? For example, if the state sets up the pension system, you can’t blame the town officials for that. How do you justify using a broad term like this? What does it accomplish? How does it help us figure out how to cut our taxes while retaining needed services (which at least you recognize as the other side of this coin)? 

3. Tell me more about the six-figure salary administrators. How many are there? What do they do? What is their education and training? What are they paid in other towns? If this is a place where we might cut taxes, let’s explore it. Please be more specific.

69892[/snapback]

You just can't help playing the (I don't understnad game) It's quite obvious what this man is saying and you refuse to see. YOU prefer to argue and split hairs. Your contribution to this topc is distraction. Let me explain what's going on. the tax monies are managed poorly and we the tax payer get it in the ass. Do you understand that Paulie. That's the long and the short of it.

[Guest Guest]

I’m just asking questions, because I don’t understand how what you’re writing affects our taxes. If it does, I want to know.

1. How does the town’s dragging out negotiations hurt us? Doesn’t that delay the resolution to the taxpayers’ benefit, since the wage increases are delayed? If not, why not? Please be specific.

2. To me, criticism of “the politicians” means nothing. Are you even referring to the same people each time you use this term? For example, if the state sets up the pension system, you can’t blame the town officials for that. How do you justify using a broad term like this? What does it accomplish? How does it help us figure out how to cut our taxes while retaining needed services (which at least you recognize as the other side of this coin)? 

3. Tell me more about the six-figure salary administrators. How many are there? What do they do? What is their education and training? What are they paid in other towns? If this is a place where we might cut taxes, let’s explore it. Please be more specific.

69892[/snapback]

#1 Dragging out the contracts costs the town koney in that it increases the retroactive pay that goes to the emp;oyees, along with Interest, not to mention increases costs to the Sharks..oops i mean attorneys on BOTH sides. Of cours im sure YOU will manage to figure out some whay that paying more money to attorneys is a benefiot to the town.

#2 It's on ALL levels. The pension system is in jeopardy because of the state-level politicians who decided to gamble with it on hedge funds, and ended up Losing money, Nevermind the politicians on ALL levels who are Double, Triple, and in some cases Quadruple-or-more Dipping with Multiple Pensions. The Local Politicians chose to spend every penny they "Saved by having their portins of the pension contributions deferred by then Gov Whitman, and McGreevey, rather than keep it aside as they should have. The Local Politicians when the Buyout came in 1994 chose to NOT put aside the money that they KNEW they would have to pay to the state, and thencried foul when the bill came due. When i use "Politician" it's a pretty generic term, since from what i've seen in this state the VAST Majority of them, whether Republican or democrat couldnt balance a checkbook nevermind actually run a town, county or state.

#3 Someone here has already commented on how the Police dept has too many administrators, and they and the FD run 24/7/365 How many high-paid administrators do the BOE/Schools have for a department that works for 180 days a year???

[Guest Guest]

I’m just asking questions, because I don’t understand how what you’re writing affects our taxes. If it does, I want to know.

1. How does the town’s dragging out negotiations hurt us? Doesn’t that delay the resolution to the taxpayers’ benefit, since the wage increases are delayed? If not, why not? Please be specific.

2. To me, criticism of “the politicians” means nothing. Are you even referring to the same people each time you use this term? For example, if the state sets up the pension system, you can’t blame the town officials for that. How do you justify using a broad term like this? What does it accomplish? How does it help us figure out how to cut our taxes while retaining needed services (which at least you recognize as the other side of this coin)? 

3. Tell me more about the six-figure salary administrators. How many are there? What do they do? What is their education and training? What are they paid in other towns? If this is a place where we might cut taxes, let’s explore it. Please be more specific.

69892[/snapback]

1). There is no delay, they get retroactive paychecks for that time when the contract should have been in place.

2). The "politicians" get the blame when things go wrong. Whether or not one, some, all or none are to blame. Conversely, when wonderful things are accomplished the "politicians" get the credit whether it was no ones doing or some of them or best yet, just one and they all take the credit. This small group of politicians have one interest in mind, the town of Kearny, not the state and it's many municipalities with it's collective politicians and their constituencys.

3). Hire and then compare what other towns pay ...... hire more and have each do less? Accountability and productivity. I prefer a performance based system. Even if you have a proven track record of getting the job done well. If you don't continue well, there's the door. All this seems unrealistic? Maybe. The problem is that so much "wasted" money gets thrown at administrators in all areas of public service. Even with sub - standard returns. Explore all you want. Demand reform. Heck, demand responsibility for your tax dollar.

[Guest Paul]

#1  Dragging out the contracts costs the town koney in that it increases the retroactive pay that goes to the emp;oyees, along with Interest, not to mention increases costs to the Sharks..oops i mean attorneys on BOTH sides.  Of cours im sure YOU will manage to figure out some whay that paying more money to attorneys is a benefiot to the town.

#2  It's on ALL levels.  The pension system is in jeopardy because of the state-level politicians who decided to gamble with it on hedge funds, and ended up Losing money, Nevermind the politicians on ALL levels who are Double, Triple, and in some cases Quadruple-or-more Dipping with Multiple Pensions.  The Local Politicians chose to spend every penny they "Saved by having their portins of the pension contributions deferred by then Gov Whitman, and McGreevey, rather than keep it aside as they should have.  The Local Politicians when the Buyout came in 1994 chose to NOT put aside the money that they KNEW they would have to pay to the state, and thencried foul when the bill came due.  When i use "Politician" it's a pretty generic term, since from what i've seen in this state the VAST Majority of them, whether Republican or democrat couldnt balance a checkbook nevermind actually run a town, county or state.

#3  Someone here has already commented on how the Police dept has too many administrators, and they and the FD run 24/7/365  How many high-paid administrators do the BOE/Schools have for a department that works for 180 days a year???

69960[/snapback]

This response is directed to the several posts from the same day or so in response to my previous one.

Tomorrow I begin another medical malpractice trial, and will be putting the defendant doctor on the stand for cross-examination. He is a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist and maternal-fetal (high-risk pregnancy) specialist with a fifty-page-plus curriculum vitae and an international reputation. He is exceptionally intelligent and well-qualified, not to mention personable and charming, and I will be asking him literally hundreds of questions. The jury is going to demand that I do that before they even think of giving my clients a verdict. If I tried my case the way you’re presenting your case against the mayor (“The doctor screwed up the case and my client took it in the ass!”), I’d lose, and I would deserve to lose.

Guys and gals, you’re not going to accomplish anything good for our town by acting the way you’re acting, making accusations based on bits of information. If you really want to accomplish anything of lasting value, you have to ask questions, plenty of them. Even if you force this mayor out of office, you still won’t have accomplished anything if you did it based on half the story. When you make decisions that way, you inevitably make bad decisions, and that doesn’t save money, it costs money and can lead to a host of problems.

I’m asking questions for exactly the reasons I’ve stated: to find out whether there are legitimate reasons for complaint against the current mayor and/or council, and also to find out whether there are ways to cut our taxes. So calm down and let’s help each other do this job right; and if we’re not going to do it right, let’s not do it at all because we’ll just screw things up.

1. You have my interest on the delay in settling the contracts, but you’re still leaving out essential information. I now understand that when the contract is settled, the town has to come up with retroactive pay, but since the employees would have been paid those amounts anyway, the town and taxpayers still haven’t lost money, we’re just paying it later. In addition, we have to pay interest --- that’s the key. If the interest rate is 2%, we’re still money ahead, because we taxpayers got to keep our money and earn a higher interest rate on it than that; on the other hand, if the interest rate is 9%, then the delay in settling the contract cost us money. Finally, we need to know what the legal and any other costs were because of the delay. Then we can look at the numbers, figure out what the break-even point was economically, and decide whether the delay cost us money, saved us money, or had no effect. With anything short of that, you’re just guessing. What interest rate must we pay when we’re late on settling a contract, and what were our extra administrative, legal and/or other costs? And just so you know, if we did lose money because of the delay, my next question would be to the mayor and council to ask them to explain why it happened. It’s called gathering all the facts before making a decision.

2. If you want to save us money in Kearny, you have to make the case in Kearny. You can’t blame a mayor and council for what is done at other levels of government.

3. If someone else presented this information, it may have been before I started following these issues. I still need the specific information, as would anyone who wants to make a truly informed decision that will actually help the community and its taxpayers.

I keep telling you, you guys keep acting like I’m your enemy. What you don’t seem to realize is that reform that actually helps the community doesn’t happen the way you’re going about it. If you want to make a real difference, you’re going to have to dot the i’s and cross the t’s so that the guilty or negligent parties, if there are any, don’t have any wiggle room. If I look into this and find that misfeasance or malfeasance is costing me money, I guarantee you that the case will be made in a way that it won’t be so easily denied as it is with your arm-waving, half-baked accusations. I’ll find fault if it’s there, but you gotta show me that it’s there.

Honestly, it seems as though you’re more interested in complaining than about actually getting to work to make things better. My purpose is to see whether I can help to find an answer that will make things better, and if I can’t do that, I have far better things to do, speaking of which . . . it’s back to work.

[Guest Guest]

#3  Someone here has already commented on how the Police dept has too many administrators, and they and the FD run 24/7/365  How many high-paid administrators do the BOE/Schools have for a department that works for 180 days a year???

69960[/snapback]

School Adminsitrators work year round.

[Guest Guest]

I’m just asking questions, because I don’t understand how what you’re writing affects our taxes. If it does, I want to know.

1. How does the town’s dragging out negotiations hurt us? Doesn’t that delay the resolution to the taxpayers’ benefit, since the wage increases are delayed? If not, why not? Please be specific.

2. To me, criticism of “the politicians” means nothing. Are you even referring to the same people each time you use this term? For example, if the state sets up the pension system, you can’t blame the town officials for that. How do you justify using a broad term like this? What does it accomplish? How does it help us figure out how to cut our taxes while retaining needed services (which at least you recognize as the other side of this coin)? 

3. Tell me more about the six-figure salary administrators. How many are there? What do they do? What is their education and training? What are they paid in other towns? If this is a place where we might cut taxes, let’s explore it. Please be more specific.

69892[/snapback]

why is it we can cut six-figure school administrators and not six-figure police and firemen? what's the difference paul? the difference is santos is not responsible for school administrators. so theyre fair game, right? hypocryte.

[Guest Paul]

why is it we can cut six-figure school administrators and not six-figure police and firemen? what's the difference paul? the difference is santos is not responsible for school administrators. so theyre fair game, right? hypocryte.

70007[/snapback]

I don't know whose salaries we can cut, if anyone's. I referred to administrators because that was the category mentioned by "Studies and Observations," to whose post I was responding. There was no implication whatsoever that we can cut the one but not the other. As far as I'm concerned, everything is fair game. But you were so hell-bent on criticizing me that you read something that simply wasn't there.

You seem to think I have an axe to grind, but that's just not so. Make your case for cuts in six-figure police and fire salaries, then. I'm completely open to it. Tell us how many positions are involved, what those positions are paid in other localities, etc. Make your case with facts, just like every other solid case is made, instead of engaging in obnoxious and unproductive name-calling. You guys can't seem to stick to one topic long enough to make a case on anything yet. I won't be treating it that way. If you raise a legitimate issue that seems promising, I'll do what you're not doing and follow it through.

[Guest Fact Checker]

#1  Dragging out the contracts costs the town koney in that it increases the retroactive pay that goes to the emp;oyees, along with Interest, not to mention increases costs to the Sharks..oops i mean attorneys on BOTH sides.  Of cours im sure YOU will manage to figure out some whay that paying more money to attorneys is a benefiot to the town.

#2  It's on ALL levels.  The pension system is in jeopardy because of the state-level politicians who decided to gamble with it on hedge funds, and ended up Losing money, Nevermind the politicians on ALL levels who are Double, Triple, and in some cases Quadruple-or-more Dipping with Multiple Pensions.  The Local Politicians chose to spend every penny they "Saved by having their portins of the pension contributions deferred by then Gov Whitman, and McGreevey, rather than keep it aside as they should have.  The Local Politicians when the Buyout came in 1994 chose to NOT put aside the money that they KNEW they would have to pay to the state, and thencried foul when the bill came due.  When i use "Politician" it's a pretty generic term, since from what i've seen in this state the VAST Majority of them, whether Republican or democrat couldnt balance a checkbook nevermind actually run a town, county or state.

#3  Someone here has already commented on how the Police dept has too many administrators, and they and the FD run 24/7/365  How many high-paid administrators do the BOE/Schools have for a department that works for 180 days a year???

69960[/snapback]

#1 The town doesn't lose money. There is no interest paid to the employees. Instead it's the employees that lose out because they're pushed into a higher tax bracket in the year they get the retro plus they don't get interest so they've lost value. Take a simple example of 4 per cent annual salary increase on a $100 base and there's 4 years of no contract and a lump sum retro at the end of four years: the employee gets the base of $100 a year and then he gets the retro of $4 plus $4.16 + 4.33 + 4.50 equals $16.99 in year 4 for a total of $416.99 over 4 years. What would the employee have made if the contract settled on time at 4 percent? $104, $104.16, $104.33 and $104.50 or $416.99. In other words, there's no financial loss to the town. None.

#2 Don't forget the several pension sweeteners that have increased pension levels in recent years. Yeah, those same politicians are the ones that municipal employees lobbied to get higher pensions even though there wasn't enough to cover those amounts.

#3 Why compare apples and oranges. Why not compare Kearny's police department and its population with other police departments of similar population?

[Guest Guest]

This response is directed to the several posts from the same day or so in response to my previous one.

Tomorrow I begin another medical malpractice trial, and will be putting the defendant doctor on the stand for cross-examination. He is a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist and maternal-fetal (high-risk pregnancy) specialist with a fifty-page-plus curriculum vitae and an international reputation. He is exceptionally intelligent and well-qualified, not to mention personable and charming, and I will be asking him literally hundreds of questions. The jury is going to demand that I do that before they even think of giving my clients a verdict. If I tried my case the way you’re presenting your case against the mayor (“The doctor screwed up the case and my client took it in the ass!”), I’d lose, and I would deserve to lose.

Guys and gals, you’re not going to accomplish anything good for our town by acting the way you’re acting, making accusations based on bits of information. If you really want to accomplish anything of lasting value, you have to ask questions, plenty of them. Even if you force this mayor out of office, you still won’t have accomplished anything if you did it based on half the story. When you make decisions that way, you inevitably make bad decisions, and that doesn’t save money, it costs money and can lead to a host of problems.

I’m asking questions for exactly the reasons I’ve stated: to find out whether there are legitimate reasons for complaint against the current mayor and/or council, and also to find out whether there are ways to cut our taxes. So calm down and let’s help each other do this job right; and if we’re not going to do it right, let’s not do it at all because we’ll just screw things up.

1. You have my interest on the delay in settling the contracts, but you’re still leaving out essential information. I now understand that when the contract is settled, the town has to come up with retroactive pay, but since the employees would have been paid those amounts anyway, the town and taxpayers still haven’t lost money, we’re just paying it later. In addition, we have to pay interest --- that’s the key. If the interest rate is 2%, we’re still money ahead, because we taxpayers got to keep our money and earn a higher interest rate on it than that; on the other hand, if the interest rate is 9%, then the delay in settling the contract cost us money. Finally, we need to know what the legal and any other costs were because of the delay. Then we can look at the numbers, figure out what the break-even point was economically, and decide whether the delay cost us money, saved us money, or had no effect. With anything short of that, you’re just guessing. What interest rate must we pay when we’re late on settling a contract, and what were our extra administrative, legal and/or other costs? And just so you know, if we did lose money because of the delay, my next question would be to the mayor and council to ask them to explain why it happened. It’s called gathering all the facts before making a decision.

2. If you want to save us money in Kearny, you have to make the case in Kearny. You can’t blame a mayor and council for what is done at other levels of government.

3. If someone else presented this information, it may have been before I started following these issues. I still need the specific information, as would anyone who wants to make a truly informed decision that will actually help the community and its taxpayers.

I keep telling you, you guys keep acting like I’m your enemy. What you don’t seem to realize is that reform that actually helps the community doesn’t happen the way you’re going about it. If you want to make a real difference, you’re going to have to dot the i’s and cross the t’s so that the guilty or negligent parties, if there are any, don’t have any wiggle room. If I look into this and find that misfeasance or malfeasance is costing me money, I guarantee you that the case will be made in a way that it won’t be so easily denied as it is with your arm-waving, half-baked accusations. I’ll find fault if it’s there, but you gotta show me that it’s there.

Honestly, it seems as though you’re more interested in complaining than about actually getting to work to make things better. My purpose is to see whether I can help to find an answer that will make things better, and if I can’t do that, I have far better things to do, speaking of which . . . it’s back to work.

69978[/snapback]

So I guess the doctor tried to help these parents and it didn't work out, now they get Paul to rake the doctor over the coals.

[Guest Guest_Taxpayer_*]

why is it we can cut six-figure school administrators and not six-figure police and firemen? what's the difference paul? the difference is santos is not responsible for school administrators. so theyre fair game, right? hypocryte.

70007[/snapback]

Mayor keeps referring to police and firemen and many posters on this board say we can't touch those salaries. Is there no other department in the town where savings could be achieved?

[Guest Is it Okay?]

This response is directed to the several posts from the same day or so in response to my previous one.

Tomorrow I begin another medical malpractice trial, and will be putting the defendant doctor on the stand for cross-examination. He is a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist and maternal-fetal (high-risk pregnancy) specialist with a fifty-page-plus curriculum vitae and an international reputation. He is exceptionally intelligent and well-qualified, not to mention personable and charming, and I will be asking him literally hundreds of questions. The jury is going to demand that I do that before they even think of giving my clients a verdict. If I tried my case the way you’re presenting your case against the mayor (“The doctor screwed up the case and my client took it in the ass!”), I’d lose, and I would deserve to lose.

Guys and gals, you’re not going to accomplish anything good for our town by acting the way you’re acting, making accusations based on bits of information. If you really want to accomplish anything of lasting value, you have to ask questions, plenty of them. Even if you force this mayor out of office, you still won’t have accomplished anything if you did it based on half the story. When you make decisions that way, you inevitably make bad decisions, and that doesn’t save money, it costs money and can lead to a host of problems.

I’m asking questions for exactly the reasons I’ve stated: to find out whether there are legitimate reasons for complaint against the current mayor and/or council, and also to find out whether there are ways to cut our taxes. So calm down and let’s help each other do this job right; and if we’re not going to do it right, let’s not do it at all because we’ll just screw things up.

1. You have my interest on the delay in settling the contracts, but you’re still leaving out essential information. I now understand that when the contract is settled, the town has to come up with retroactive pay, but since the employees would have been paid those amounts anyway, the town and taxpayers still haven’t lost money, we’re just paying it later. In addition, we have to pay interest --- that’s the key. If the interest rate is 2%, we’re still money ahead, because we taxpayers got to keep our money and earn a higher interest rate on it than that; on the other hand, if the interest rate is 9%, then the delay in settling the contract cost us money. Finally, we need to know what the legal and any other costs were because of the delay. Then we can look at the numbers, figure out what the break-even point was economically, and decide whether the delay cost us money, saved us money, or had no effect. With anything short of that, you’re just guessing. What interest rate must we pay when we’re late on settling a contract, and what were our extra administrative, legal and/or other costs? And just so you know, if we did lose money because of the delay, my next question would be to the mayor and council to ask them to explain why it happened. It’s called gathering all the facts before making a decision.

2. If you want to save us money in Kearny, you have to make the case in Kearny. You can’t blame a mayor and council for what is done at other levels of government.

3. If someone else presented this information, it may have been before I started following these issues. I still need the specific information, as would anyone who wants to make a truly informed decision that will actually help the community and its taxpayers.

I keep telling you, you guys keep acting like I’m your enemy. What you don’t seem to realize is that reform that actually helps the community doesn’t happen the way you’re going about it. If you want to make a real difference, you’re going to have to dot the i’s and cross the t’s so that the guilty or negligent parties, if there are any, don’t have any wiggle room. If I look into this and find that misfeasance or malfeasance is costing me money, I guarantee you that the case will be made in a way that it won’t be so easily denied as it is with your arm-waving, half-baked accusations. I’ll find fault if it’s there, but you gotta show me that it’s there.

Honestly, it seems as though you’re more interested in complaining than about actually getting to work to make things better. My purpose is to see whether I can help to find an answer that will make things better, and if I can’t do that, I have far better things to do, speaking of which . . . it’s back to work.

69978[/snapback]

Point of clarification on number one: there is no interest, zero, paid on the retro amounts. It's the exact amount except paid in a lump sum. The only loss is to the employee who has lost the value of his money for the length of the delay.

[Guest Guest]

Mayor keeps referring to police and firemen and many posters on this board say we can't touch those salaries.  Is there no other department in the town where savings could be achieved?

70071[/snapback]

Maybe, and that's fine, but the bulk of the money is in police and fire salaries.

[Guest Guest]

So I guess the doctor tried to help these parents and it didn't work out, now they get Paul to rake the doctor over the coals.

70060[/snapback]

Uh huh. Perhaps you could tell us all about your vast knowledge of the case. Idiot.

[Strife767]

So I guess the doctor tried to help these parents and it didn't work out, now they get Paul to rake the doctor over the coals.

70060[/snapback]

Assumptions made based on your own biases make you look foolish, you know.

[Guest The Sensible Censor]

This is a great article.  But, Mr. Mangin did not say mediators were not used; but rather that only one unit went to binding arbitration. 

68933[/snapback]

Oh contrare, mon ami! Mangin's exact quote, directly from the 10/03/07 Observer, is as follows: "The only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town's last settlement with the fire captains and deputy chiefs"

How beautifully you back-peddle when the truth is documented!!

[Guest Lexie Lexicogapher]

Typical Al Santos response - evasive, contradictory and then it's off to left field.

First he squarely places blame for the "bulk of police and fire salaries" on binding arbitration, inferring that the Mayor and Council were helpless (and therefore, blameless).

Then, after I show that binding arbitration was only used for Fire Captains and Deputy Chiefs, he lists the mediators used during the 6+ years some of these units were without a contract.

There's one problem though, mediation is not binding arbitration. The difference is that what is decided in binding arbitration is, well . . .binding.

Mayor Santos doesn't think the people of Kearny will notice the difference. 

Wrong again Mayor.

I've said it before continuing to deliberately deceive the public is an excelent reason for a recall.

Jim Mangin

69012[/snapback]

Typical Jim Mangin response---convoluted, myopic, self-serving and then it's off to Mangin-land.

As usual, Mr. Mangin has tripped over the truth and has missed the point completely. Mediation is the precursor to arbitration. As a matter of fact the mediator quite often becomes the arbitrator. The "specter" of arbitration is always present during mediation, especially when negotiations are not moving well. Since arbitration awards have historically been union friendly, most management entities see no point in expending the time or money on an arbitration that will yield a result akin to, or more costly than, the result already suggested in mediation. This serves only to postpone the inevitable.

Hence, it is not only the reality of binding arbitration, but the very real threat of such that pushes municipalities into unpopular (not necessarily unfair) settlements.

There are two reasons for the Mayor's listing of the mediation sessions and the names of the mediators: 1) because the mediator is often the actual architect of the settlement which may then be passed on to an arbitrator for review/approval; and 2) because you specifically, vehemently and categorically denied the presence of any outside negotiators during contract talks.

Wrong again, Councilman. (Oops, that's right you lost your last couple of elections.)

Just an observation: sour grapes always produce sour whines. Stop all this incessant nonsense about recall. You couldn't beat Santos at the polls and the three of you (and your alter egos) on this site will certainly will not beat him via a recall.

[Guest Guest]

Uh huh. Perhaps you could tell us all about your vast knowledge of the case. Idiot.

70127[/snapback]

Here is what Paul had to say about the doctor:

"defendant doctor on the stand for cross-examination. He is a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist and maternal-fetal (high-risk pregnancy) specialist with a fifty-page-plus curriculum vitae and an international reputation. He is exceptionally intelligent and well-qualified, not to mention personable and charming,"

What more do you want to know about the case? D**bA**.