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Mangin's Tax Spin


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To the Publisher:

My call for a “productive debate” on property taxes led ex-Councilman Jim Mangin to allege that I misrepresented the involvement of mediators in the Town’s labor negotiations with municipal employee unions. Mangin claimed in this newspaper that “the only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town’s last settlement with fire captains and deputy chiefs.” This is untrue. During the last round of contract negotiations, Jerry Restaino acted as mediator for unions representing police officers and police superior officers; Joel Weisblatt acted as mediator in the negotiations with the firefighters’ union; and Jim Mastriani acted as mediator and arbitrator in the negotiations with the fire superior officers’ union.

Mangin was Councilman, representing Kearny’s 3rd Ward, from 2001 through 2004, which coincides with all or part of the period when each of these mediators was active in Kearny. In other words, Mangin knows the facts as well as I do. But correcting this detail is not what prompted me to respond. Rather, what did is Mangin’s cry for lower property taxes while at the same time, casting blame for higher taxes on the Council and me even though he supported growing government as a member of the Council. You can’t have it both ways.

Mangin’s record as Councilman demonstrates this inconsistency. In 2003, he supported the fire superiors’ demand for salary and longevity increases and received that union’s endorsement for his mayoral run. The majority of the Council and I disagreed, and waited for the arbitrator’s final award, which turned out to be less costly — about $500,000 a year less — to the Town than the union’s final position.

Another example of Mangin’s waving the tax cutter flag but acting to the contrary was his May 2004 vote on the defeated school budget, in which he voted along with the rest of the Council to leave the bulk of the defeated school budget intact.

Yet another example is when he joined me and the 1st Ward Council members in voting to create two new police sergeants, one new lieutenant and one new captain (adding upward of $500,000 a year to the police budget) in order to staff the 1st Ward police substation that was built to address crime concerns at the Town’s southern border.

My original letter was not to place blame but to open discussion. Local government provides a variety of services. Most of the municipal budget, upward of 70 percent, is for labor-related costs, and a majority of those labor costs ($29 million) is for police and fire protection. I stated previously that we as a community would have to ask and answer hard questions about the level of services that our local government provides.

Do residents want services cut in order to lower taxes?

I also pointed out that it takes a $1.1 million cut in the budget to yield $100 in tax savings for the average homeowner. While there are no easy answers, I remain hopeful that our community will engage in productive debate.

Alberto G. Santos, Mayor of Kearny

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To the Publisher:

My call for a “productive debate” on property taxes led ex-Councilman Jim Mangin to allege that I misrepresented the involvement of mediators in the Town’s labor negotiations with municipal employee unions. Mangin claimed in this newspaper that “the only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town’s last settlement with fire captains and deputy chiefs.” This is untrue. During the last round of contract negotiations, Jerry Restaino acted as mediator for unions representing police officers and police superior officers; Joel Weisblatt acted as mediator in the negotiations with the firefighters’ union; and Jim Mastriani acted as mediator and arbitrator in the negotiations with the fire superior officers’ union.

Mangin was Councilman, representing Kearny’s 3rd Ward, from 2001 through 2004, which coincides with all or part of the period when each of these mediators was active in Kearny. In other words, Mangin knows the facts as well as I do. But correcting this detail is not what prompted me to respond. Rather, what did is Mangin’s cry for lower property taxes while at the same time, casting blame for higher taxes on the Council and me even though he supported growing government as a member of the Council. You can’t have it both ways.

Mangin’s record as Councilman demonstrates this inconsistency. In 2003, he supported the fire superiors’ demand for salary and longevity increases and received that union’s endorsement for his mayoral run. The majority of the Council and I disagreed, and waited for the arbitrator’s final award, which turned out to be less costly — about $500,000 a year less — to the Town than the union’s final position. 

Another example of Mangin’s waving the tax cutter flag but acting to the contrary was his May 2004 vote on the defeated school budget, in which he voted along with the rest of the Council to leave the bulk of the defeated school budget intact. 

Yet another example is when he joined me and the 1st Ward Council members in voting to create two new police sergeants, one new lieutenant and one new captain (adding upward of $500,000 a year to the police budget) in order to staff the 1st Ward police substation that was built to address crime concerns at the Town’s southern border.

My original letter was not to place blame but to open discussion. Local government provides a variety of services. Most of the municipal budget, upward of 70 percent, is for labor-related costs, and a majority of those labor costs ($29 million) is for police and fire protection. I stated previously that we as a community would have to ask and answer hard questions about the level of services that our local government provides.

Do residents want services cut in order to lower taxes? 

I also pointed out that it takes a $1.1 million cut in the budget to yield $100 in tax savings for the average homeowner. While there are no easy answers, I remain hopeful that our community will engage in productive debate.

Alberto G. Santos, Mayor of Kearny

68925[/snapback]

This is a great article. But, Mr. Mangin did not say mediators were not used; but rather that only one unit went to binding arbitration. The Mayor's claim was that because multiple contracts went to binding arbitration, he was essentially blameless.

Here's a new idea, resolve contracts in a timely manner, that way there is not some huge retroactive payment like the fire officer's received after 6 years without a contract.

Come on Mayor, that wasn't even a GOOD lie.

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To the Publisher:

My call for a “productive debate” on property taxes led ex-Councilman Jim Mangin to allege that I misrepresented the involvement of mediators in the Town’s labor negotiations with municipal employee unions. Mangin claimed in this newspaper that “the only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town’s last settlement with fire captains and deputy chiefs.” This is untrue. During the last round of contract negotiations, Jerry Restaino acted as mediator for unions representing police officers and police superior officers; Joel Weisblatt acted as mediator in the negotiations with the firefighters’ union; and Jim Mastriani acted as mediator and arbitrator in the negotiations with the fire superior officers’ union.

Mangin was Councilman, representing Kearny’s 3rd Ward, from 2001 through 2004, which coincides with all or part of the period when each of these mediators was active in Kearny. In other words, Mangin knows the facts as well as I do. But correcting this detail is not what prompted me to respond. Rather, what did is Mangin’s cry for lower property taxes while at the same time, casting blame for higher taxes on the Council and me even though he supported growing government as a member of the Council. You can’t have it both ways.

Mangin’s record as Councilman demonstrates this inconsistency. In 2003, he supported the fire superiors’ demand for salary and longevity increases and received that union’s endorsement for his mayoral run. The majority of the Council and I disagreed, and waited for the arbitrator’s final award, which turned out to be less costly — about $500,000 a year less — to the Town than the union’s final position. 

Another example of Mangin’s waving the tax cutter flag but acting to the contrary was his May 2004 vote on the defeated school budget, in which he voted along with the rest of the Council to leave the bulk of the defeated school budget intact. 

Yet another example is when he joined me and the 1st Ward Council members in voting to create two new police sergeants, one new lieutenant and one new captain (adding upward of $500,000 a year to the police budget) in order to staff the 1st Ward police substation that was built to address crime concerns at the Town’s southern border.

My original letter was not to place blame but to open discussion. Local government provides a variety of services. Most of the municipal budget, upward of 70 percent, is for labor-related costs, and a majority of those labor costs ($29 million) is for police and fire protection. I stated previously that we as a community would have to ask and answer hard questions about the level of services that our local government provides.

Do residents want services cut in order to lower taxes? 

I also pointed out that it takes a $1.1 million cut in the budget to yield $100 in tax savings for the average homeowner. While there are no easy answers, I remain hopeful that our community will engage in productive debate.

Alberto G. Santos, Mayor of Kearny

68925[/snapback]

Does anyone know if we still have a captain, lieut, 2 sargants at the police sub-station? That seems pretty excessive to me.

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Guest Studies and Observations

Santos Lies and Strife swears to it..Big Surprise. Santos did NOT mention "Mediators" he blamed the salaries on BINDING ARBITRATION, which NEVER happened for the Police Department or the Firefighters.. Notice the difference?? Santos is now trying to spin his OWN INCOMPETENCE. It's Very simple.. Under the Vartan/Chezh administration the Town refused to negotiate in good faith with any of the unions...causing a 4 year span with no contracts, and a huge cost to the town in back pay once contracts were settled. Santos, a Freshman Councilman at the time stated (and i Quote) "NEVER AGAIN"...which he threw out the window as soon as HE became Mayor, and hired his own Papa-Smurf-looking version of Czech. Fire Officera, IIRC FIVE years with no contracts, and the FIRST time anyone had to go to Binding Arbitration in the history of the town, Firefighters, 2 1/2 years with no contract, Police 3 years with no contract, THEN after the town agrees to a new contract, another FIVE months before they implement it....yet no one seems to want to understand that it's Santos and D'Arco's nonsense that is ultimately costing the taxpayers. Fiscal Irresponsibility..It doesnt matter WHAT letter a politician in Kearny has behind his name, Democrat, Republican, they're all the same. I wonder how long it'll be before the FBI is back in Town Hall siezing more records???

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Typical Al Santos response - evasive, contradictory and then it's off to left field.

First he squarely places blame for the "bulk of police and fire salaries" on binding arbitration, inferring that the Mayor and Council were helpless (and therefore, blameless).

Then, after I show that binding arbitration was only used for Fire Captains and Deputy Chiefs, he lists the mediators used during the 6+ years some of these units were without a contract.

There's one problem though, mediation is not binding arbitration. The difference is that what is decided in binding arbitration is, well . . .binding.

Mayor Santos doesn't think the people of Kearny will notice the difference.

Wrong again Mayor.

I've said it before continuing to deliberately deceive the public is an excelent reason for a recall.

Jim Mangin

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Guest No You Didn't
This is a great article.  But, Mr. Mangin did not say mediators were not used; but rather that only one unit went to binding arbitration.  The Mayor's claim was that because multiple contracts went to binding arbitration, he was essentially blameless.

Here's a new idea, resolve contracts in a timely manner, that way there is not some huge retroactive payment like the fire officer's received after 6 years without a contract.

Come on Mayor, that wasn't even a GOOD lie.

68933[/snapback]

Now you're making up facts to justify your position! This is Mangin's quote WORD for WORD: “the only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town’s last settlement with fire captains and deputy chiefs.” That's false, period.

As to your "new idea," how much would the Town save in dollars by resolving contracts right away? (The answer is zero at best. Do you honestly think any union begins starts off negotiations with their bottom line offer??)

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Guest Mang-Spin-Bust
Typical Al Santos response - evasive, contradictory and then it's off to left field.

First he squarely places blame for the "bulk of police and fire salaries" on binding arbitration, inferring that the Mayor and Council were helpless (and therefore, blameless).

Then, after I show that binding arbitration was only used for Fire Captains and Deputy Chiefs, he lists the mediators used during the 6+ years some of these units were without a contract.

There's one problem though, mediation is not binding arbitration. The difference is that what is decided in binding arbitration is, well . . .binding.

Mayor Santos doesn't think the people of Kearny will notice the difference. 

Wrong again Mayor.

I've said it before continuing to deliberately deceive the public is an excelent reason for a recall.

Jim Mangin

69012[/snapback]

Jim,

You're the one that misstated the facts. You said: “the only time an outside mediator was ever used in recent years was in the Town’s last settlement with fire captains and deputy chiefs.” That's a lie even though you've shamelessly refused to acknowledge that.

But that's a sidebar. You voted for those police and fire increases on the council and said you would have voted for even more! Answer this: Would you NOW reduce police and fire salaries or the number of police and fire personnel. Begin your anwer with a "yes" or "no".

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Typical Al Santos response - evasive, contradictory and then it's off to left field.

First he squarely places blame for the "bulk of police and fire salaries" on binding arbitration, inferring that the Mayor and Council were helpless (and therefore, blameless).

Then, after I show that binding arbitration was only used for Fire Captains and Deputy Chiefs, he lists the mediators used during the 6+ years some of these units were without a contract.

There's one problem though, mediation is not binding arbitration. The difference is that what is decided in binding arbitration is, well . . .binding.

Mayor Santos doesn't think the people of Kearny will notice the difference. 

Wrong again Mayor.

I've said it before continuing to deliberately deceive the public is an excelent reason for a recall.

Jim Mangin

69012[/snapback]

Mr. Mangin I don't recall the mayor blaming the salaries for of Kearny's financial trouble. It does appear he wrong the binding arbitration. I just don't believe a mayor would blame firemen and policemen for high taxes. Why do we have a town council. Thank you.

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Swears to what? I expressed anticipation at seeing Mangin's response, that's all. Stop putting words in my mouth.

As contrasted to your dishonesty.

69146[/snapback]

Really?? NAME the "Dishonesty" or STFU Scumbag

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"Santos Lies and Strife swears to it.."

Now CITE me swearing to anything Santos has said or "STFU Scumbag." :D

69241[/snapback]

"Short, sweet, and to the point."

Close enough to swearing for me.

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Mr. Mangin I don't recall the mayor blaming the salaries for of Kearny's financial trouble. It does appear he wrong the binding arbitration. I just don't believe a mayor would blame firemen and policemen for high taxes. Why do we have a town council. Thank you.

69199[/snapback]

This is from the Jersey Journal on August 9:

Kearny blames labor costs for high taxes

"Kearny residents, however, also pay the highest taxes in Hudson County and recently saw a 9 percent municipal tax hike. The average property owner's tax bill is $7,402, according to a Star-Ledger analysis, and some residents say the town isn't worth the high price.

George Burdell, 57, said he's fed up with Kearny and the "aggravation" of dealing with ever-rising taxes. Burdell said he has lived in the town his entire life, but is now trying to sell his house. He added that taxpayers are bearing the brunt of the town's high salaries.

Labor costs, especially those related to fire and police, comprise the highest percentage of the town's budget, Santos said.

"Our labor force is 60 percent police and fire, and the bulk of those salaries were determined through the binding arbitration system," Santos said. "We have tried to go through negotiations, but they were unsuccessful."

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This is from the Jersey Journal on August 9:

Kearny blames labor costs for high taxes

"Kearny residents, however, also pay the highest taxes in Hudson County and recently saw a 9 percent municipal tax hike. The average property owner's tax bill is $7,402, according to a Star-Ledger analysis, and some residents say the town isn't worth the high price.

George Burdell, 57, said he's fed up with Kearny and the "aggravation" of dealing with ever-rising taxes. Burdell said he has lived in the town his entire life, but is now trying to sell his house. He added that taxpayers are bearing the brunt of the town's high salaries.

Labor costs, especially those related to fire and police, comprise the highest percentage of the town's budget, Santos said.

"Our labor force is 60 percent police and fire, and the bulk of those salaries were determined through the binding arbitration system," Santos said. "We have tried to go through negotiations, but they were unsuccessful."

69356[/snapback]

THE MAYOR SHOULD BE IMPEACHED FOR MAKING STATEMENTS LIKE THIS!!!! LIES!! LIES!!! LIES!!! WE SHULD BLAME THE COPS AND FIREMEN FOR TAKING WHAT THE TOWN OFFERED???

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Guest Classic Jim Dodge
This is from the Jersey Journal on August 9:

Kearny blames labor costs for high taxes

"Kearny residents, however, also pay the highest taxes in Hudson County and recently saw a 9 percent municipal tax hike. The average property owner's tax bill is $7,402, according to a Star-Ledger analysis, and some residents say the town isn't worth the high price.

George Burdell, 57, said he's fed up with Kearny and the "aggravation" of dealing with ever-rising taxes. Burdell said he has lived in the town his entire life, but is now trying to sell his house. He added that taxpayers are bearing the brunt of the town's high salaries.

Labor costs, especially those related to fire and police, comprise the highest percentage of the town's budget, Santos said.

"Our labor force is 60 percent police and fire, and the bulk of those salaries were determined through the binding arbitration system," Santos said. "We have tried to go through negotiations, but they were unsuccessful."

69356[/snapback]

Fact is that police and fire personnel in the state of New Jersey have the ultimate hammer of binding arbitration (before an arbitrator that the union picks). It's not just Kearny, look at any professional police or fire department in this state and look at their compensation packages.

Cut to the chase, why did Mangin ignore the other question posted to him above?:

But that's a sidebar. You voted for those police and fire increases on the council and said you would have voted for even more! Answer this: Would you NOW reduce police and fire salaries or the number of police and fire personnel. Begin your anwer with a "yes" or "no".

Mangin voted FOR the salary increases. Mangin voted FOR the police and fire hires. What is the Mangin solution other than going off on Santos on taxes and at the same time quietly pandering to the town's police and fire personnel by promising them the world??

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Fact is that police and fire personnel in the state of New Jersey have the ultimate hammer of binding arbitration (before an arbitrator that the union picks).  It's not just Kearny, look at any professional police or fire department in this state and look at their compensation packages. 

Cut to the chase, why did Mangin ignore the other question posted to him above?:  

But that's a sidebar. You voted for those police and fire increases on the council and said you would have voted for even more! Answer this: Would you NOW reduce police and fire salaries or the number of police and fire personnel. Begin your anwer with a "yes" or "no".

Mangin voted FOR the salary increases.  Mangin voted FOR the police and fire hires.  What is the Mangin solution other than going off on Santos on taxes and at the same time quietly pandering to the town's police and fire personnel by promising them the world??

69394[/snapback]

When I was a member of the Town Council I was 100% responsible for the police salaries. Is that clear enough for you. The fire contracts were settled after I left office.

OK, now that we've established that the Mayor and Council (including me) are 100% responsible for salaries, don't you find it odd that the Mayor is trying to shift blame from the Town Council to binding arbitration?

Jim Mangin

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Guest Mangin Spin Redux
When I was a member of the Town Council I was 100% responsible for the police salaries. Is that clear enough for you. The fire contracts were settled after I left office.

OK, now that we've established that the Mayor and Council (including me) are 100% responsible for salaries, don't you find it odd that the Mayor is trying to shift blame from the Town Council to binding arbitration?

Jim Mangin

69477[/snapback]

Mangin's wrong again. He voted FOR the arbitrator's award for the Fire Superiors.

To answer your question, no. I think it explains why police and fire salaries are where they are throughout New Jersey.

Mangin still is dodging, not answering the question about what he'd do to cut police and fire costs.

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Guest Studies and Observations
Swears to what? I expressed anticipation at seeing Mangin's response, that's all. Stop putting words in my mouth.

As contrasted to your dishonesty.

69146[/snapback]

Well YOU are the one who seems to accept anything Santos states without question. Mayor santos Lied in his interview with the Jersey Journal, when he clearly stated that Binding Arbitration was the reason that the salaries were as high as they were, when there HAD BEEN no such arbitrations other than for the Fire Officers. In the History of the Police and fire contracts there had never been any other instance where a contract had to be arbitrated bindingly and the town "Forced" to accept a settlement. Subsequently Mayor santos seems to have Amended his position to now talk about "Outside Mediators" Yet he STILL skirts the fact that HE and the Council Signed off on every contract. Generally blaming the amount of time that they take on Mr D'Arco. It's a VERY long cry from a certain Councilman Santos at a Meeting a number of years ago Stating "NEVER AGAIN" would the town allow the contracts get to the point where they would have to pay out years of Retroactive Pay..yet every contract since he's been mayor has been drawn out, and in the end the town seems to settle for precisely what the unions offered (Which from what i've bene told is at or below the average for other departments (Police, Fire, and Town Workers) around the rest of the county and the state, and generally LESS than Binding Arbitration awards.

To whoever answered you, I appreciate the backup but i AM capable of fighting my own battles, even though it might take a few days to respond since i dont check this place every day, and, While i might agree with the sentiment concerning Strife ;) The Language was a little more forceful than i prefer. But then again Strife seems to be a typical Partisan.. he'll go with his party line, no matter WHAT the facts might actually indicate. And before i'm branded as a Neo-Con (Which his ilk seem to lay on Anyone who disagrees with them) I'm a registered independant, although i Do lean towards conservative values....as Radagast knows well.

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Guest Studies and Observations
Mangin's wrong again.  He voted FOR the arbitrator's award for the Fire Superiors.

To answer your question, no.  I think it explains why police and fire salaries are where they are throughout New Jersey.

Mangin still is dodging, not answering the question about what he'd do to cut police and fire costs.

69560[/snapback]

Ok How about we turn the clock back to the Vartan Years, 1995 or 1996 when the PD and the FD were down to around 99 members each.. Im SURE you wont have a problem with wating for an hour or so for an officer to respond to a non-emergency call?? or would you be one of those who were calling every 20 minutes then screaming at the Officers when they got there to clear your blocked driveway or check on the barking dog..nevermind the domestic disputes, shoplifters/ACTUAL Crimes they had to handle first. Or having 3 Men on a Fire Engine...Hell we can Close a Firehouse or two..nothing ever happens here in Kearny right????? Oh Wait!! I Know!! Like some here have postulated we can go to a VOLUNTEER Fire Dept!!! of course the fact that we couldnt keep enough volunteers around to keep ONE ambulance in service all of the time means nothing. Go right ahead..MAKE it as miserable a place as possible for Police and Fire..then wonder why the quality of Officers on both departments drops. You get what you Pay for, and if that is the kind of PD and FD you Want, then that's also what you deserve.

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Well YOU are the one who seems to accept anything Santos states without question.

Can you cite examples of stuff I said that leads you to this conclusion? This is not sarcastic--I'd really like to see where this mindset is coming from, because I myself know that there is no one whose word I take as gospel.

Regardless, Santos's statement WAS succinct, and that's basically all I said about it, with the expression "short, sweet, and to the point." Of course, when others are clamoring to stuff straw men into my mouth, it becomes difficult to see the simplicity of my statement.

Now, if I had said, "Let's see what excuse Mangin will make up for this" or something like that, it would have been a different story. That definitely would have had a tone of at least anti-Mangin sentiment. But no--all I said was that I was eager to see what his response would be, and that is because I've been apathetic about this subject for a while, so seeing this all come up, I want to hear what people have to say.

So again, stop trying to demonize me by putting words and motives into my mouth. I made a very simple statement--it's amazing the lengths some people will go to to try and make me look bad.

Believe me--if I felt strongly about it one way or the other, I would have said so. Even a semi-regular should know that. I'm not one to mince words, and I'm not subtle or cryptic in my statements. Read what is written, and stop trying to inject invented motivations and meanings into the things I write.

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Guest Is it Okay?
Ok  How about we turn the clock back to the Vartan Years,  1995 or 1996 when the PD and the FD were down to around 99 members each..  Im SURE you wont have a problem with wating for an hour or so for an officer to respond to a non-emergency call??  or would you be one of those who were calling every 20 minutes then screaming at the Officers when they got there to clear your blocked driveway or check on the barking dog..nevermind the domestic disputes, shoplifters/ACTUAL Crimes they had to handle first.  Or having 3 Men on a Fire Engine...Hell we can Close a Firehouse or two..nothing ever happens here in Kearny right?????  Oh Wait!!  I Know!! Like some here have postulated we can go to a VOLUNTEER Fire Dept!!! of course the fact that we couldnt keep enough volunteers around to keep ONE ambulance in service all of the time means nothing.  Go right ahead..MAKE it as miserable a place as possible for Police and Fire..then wonder why the quality of Officers on both departments drops.  You get what you Pay for, and if that is the kind of PD and FD you Want, then that's also what you deserve.

69631[/snapback]

Mangin Spin Redux didn't take a position. She or He simply asked a question. By your response, it's obvious that it's a question you don't even want to entertain. Whatever your motivation, whether it's based on a genuine concern about the town or a personal concern about your salary, who decided you can tell us what we can discuss and what we can't discuss? Shouldn't the decision be made through the democratic process? Isn't the voter ultimately the decider on taxes?

By the way, I'm a llifelonger, never waited more than a couple of minutes for an officer, even in 1995/96.

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Guest Mangin Spin Redux
When I was a member of the Town Council I was 100% responsible for the police salaries. Is that clear enough for you. The fire contracts were settled after I left office.

OK, now that we've established that the Mayor and Council (including me) are 100% responsible for salaries, don't you find it odd that the Mayor is trying to shift blame from the Town Council to binding arbitration?

Jim Mangin

69477[/snapback]

Huh? Mangin still hasn't admitted to making a mistake in his letter to the editor in which he erroneously said there's only been one mediator in labor negotiations. Classic Jim. Reminds me of a child who gets caught cheating, won't admit it and then blames others.

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