U.S. has Mandela on terrorist list

[Manscape]

It has long gotten BEYOND a contemporary dark comedy..........our nation and our embarassment.........look for your local Bush "DEADENDER" and give "thanks" for this ever growing lunacy of American hypocrisy and paranoia.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04...st_N.htm?csp=34

WASHINGTON — Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists and needs special permission to visit the USA. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calls the situation "embarrassing," and some members of Congress vow to fix it.

The requirement applies to former South African leader Mandela and other members of South Africa's governing African National Congress (ANC), the once-banned anti-Apartheid organization. In the 1970s and '80s, the ANC was officially designated a terrorist group by the country's ruling white minority. Other countries, including the United States, followed suit.

Because of this, Rice told a Senate committee recently, her department has to issue waivers for ANC members to travel to the USA.

"This is a country with which we now have excellent relations, South Africa, but it's frankly a rather embarrassing matter that I still have to waive in my own counterpart, the foreign minister of South Africa, not to mention the great leader Nelson Mandela," Rice said.

Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, is pushing a bill that would remove current and former ANC leaders from the watch lists. Supporters hope to get it passed before Mandela's 90th birthday July 18.

"What an indignity," Berman said. "The ANC set an important example: It successfully made the change from armed struggle to peace. We should celebrate the transformation."

In 1990, Mandela was freed after 27 years in prison for crimes committed during the struggle against Apartheid, a repressive regime that subjugated black South Africans. In 1994, he was elected South Africa's first black president.

Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., called ANC members' inclusion on watch lists a "bureaucratic snafu" and pledged to fix the problem.

Members of other groups deemed a terrorist threat, such as Hamas, also are on the watch lists.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff says "common sense" suggests Mandela should be removed. He says the issue "raises a troubling and difficult debate about what groups are considered terrorists and which are not."

When ANC members apply for visas to the USA, they are flagged for questioning and need a waiver to be allowed in the country. In 2002, former ANC chairman Tokyo Sexwale was denied a visa. In 2007, Barbara Masekela, South Africa's ambassador to the United States from 2002 to 2006, was denied a visa to visit her ailing cousin and didn't get a waiver until after the cousin had died, Berman's legislation says.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!

[Bryan]

If you read the article you should come away with the implication that Mandela and other ANC members have been on the list for a very long time. In other words, the with us or against us rhetoric you're using is very probably a lie, as Madela's appearance on the list is a relic of earlier administrations, not a result of the actions of the recent Bush administration.

[Manscape]

If you read the article you should come away with the implication that Mandela and other ANC members have been on the list for a very long time. In other words, the with us or against us rhetoric you're using is very probably a lie, as Madela's appearance on the list is a relic of earlier administrations, not a result of the actions of the recent Bush administration.

Bush has been emperor for almost eight years. THAT'S A LONG TIME to keep Nelson Mandela (and hugely numerous other targets) in the "axis of evil" doghouse.

Let's examine the Bush II regime timeline on matters of labeling people as terrorists:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coun...errorism_Center

The precursor organization of NCTC, the Terrorist Threat Integration Center (TTIC), established on May 1, 2003, was created by President George W. Bush by Executive Order 13354.

NCTC Goals:

Products, such as detailed lists of terrorists, terrorist groups, and worldwide terrorist incidents.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's the last paragraph in the USA Today article that I posted to start this thread:

When ANC members apply for visas to the USA, they are flagged for questioning and need a waiver to be allowed in the country. In 2002, former ANC chairman Tokyo Sexwale was denied a visa. In 2007, Barbara Masekela, South Africa's ambassador to the United States from 2002 to 2006, was denied a visa to visit her ailing cousin and didn't get a waiver until after the cousin had died, Berman's legislation says.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now after eight years, with monkey boy in the last days of his disastrous dictatorship, do you REALLY think Bush has any innocence concerning Nelson Mandela included on the terrorist list that was a pillar in his intimidation and FEAR MONGERING?

Show the forum how desperate you are, Bryan. It's slightly satisfying to witness the Bush deadenders as scurrying sophists at this late date.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED FIVE YEARS NOW!!!

[Bryan]

Bush has been emperor for almost eight years. THAT'S A LONG TIME to keep Nelson Mandela (and hugely numerous other targets) in the "axis of evil" doghouse.

Let's examine the Bush II regime timeline on matters of labeling people as terrorists:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coun...errorism_Center

The precursor organization of NCTC, the Terrorist Threat Integration Center (TTIC), established on May 1, 2003, was created by President George W. Bush by Executive Order 13354.

NCTC Goals:

Products, such as detailed lists of terrorists, terrorist groups, and worldwide terrorist incidents.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's the last paragraph in the USA Today article that I posted to start this thread:

When ANC members apply for visas to the USA, they are flagged for questioning and need a waiver to be allowed in the country. In 2002, former ANC chairman Tokyo Sexwale was denied a visa. In 2007, Barbara Masekela, South Africa's ambassador to the United States from 2002 to 2006, was denied a visa to visit her ailing cousin and didn't get a waiver until after the cousin had died, Berman's legislation says.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now after eight years, with monkey boy in the last days of his disastrous dictatorship, do you REALLY think Bush has any innocence concerning Nelson Mandela included on the terrorist list that was a pillar in his intimidation and FEAR MONGERING?

Show the forum how desperate you are, Bryan. It's slightly satisfying to witness the Bush deadenders as scurrying sophists at this late date.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED FIVE YEARS NOW!!!

Your own research indicates that Bush formed his list-making organization in 2003, while one of the ANC folks you listed was detained in 2002.

If that doesn't tell you you're an idiot then you may be too stupid to understand.

[Manscape]

Your own research indicates that Bush formed his list-making organization in 2003, while one of the ANC folks you listed was detained in 2002.

If that doesn't tell you you're an idiot then you may be too stupid to understand.

No No, deadender..............your monkey boy doesn't get exoneration for Nelson Mandela residing on the US "terrorist" list for the entire Bush II disaster-era..........churlishly and seethingly explained by you that some mandated relic cast by a previous POTUS is to blame for Nelson Mandela's place of "terror" in these endless Bushdays of darkness..........no no Bryan........that will not fly here.

You are messageboard PETTY (and dishonest) excusing GWB's contentment to remain Nelson Mandela on the US terrorist list for what will be essentially his entire two miserable terms!

I call you DEADENDER for no small reason. You have a bacteria's mentality to defend this presidential pariah that we bleedingly sport.

Shall I explain to our audience Bryan, at your expense, how a coward and his coattailers get motivated to stack the deck against world class human decency?

George Monkey Bush had his coward's ax to grind with Nelson Mandela. It's revealing Bryan, that you are so suddenly OBLIVIOUS to this historic nugget and presently come down on the side of a jerk*ff when the writing is not only on the wall but upon the sky. You opine like the most reptilian of lawyers, a bottom feeder.

Everybody enjoys seeing an honest and courageous man get MAINTAINED a terrorist by a deviate American president, right Bryan? OR..........is "voices from god" Bush superman enough to allow Nelson Mandela his views without blowback?

Come kiss me sweet next retort, Bryan. I like my punching bags puckered with cheap lipstick.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/30/...ain538607.shtml

Mandela Slams Bush On Iraq

Calls U.S. Policy Arrogant And Shortsighted; Implies Bush Is Racist

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa, Jan. 30, 2003

Nelson Mandela accused President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the U.N. and suggested it might be because the current secretary-general, Kofi Annan, is black. (AP)

(CBS) A prominent new voice joined the international chorus of protest against U.S. preparations for war against Iraq on Thursday.

Former South African President Nelson Mandela delivered a fiery speech denouncing the United States and aiming harsh personal criticism at President Bush.

Mandela, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and one of the world's most respected elder statesmen, let the Bush administration have it right between the eyes, reports CBS News Correspondent Tom Fenton.

"It is a tragedy, what is happening, what Bush is doing. But Bush is now undermining the United Nations," Mandela told the International Women's Forum.

Mandela said he would support action against Iraq only if it is ordered by the U.N. He urged the people of the United States to join massive protests against Mr. Bush and called on world leaders, especially those with vetoes in the U.N. Security Council, to oppose him.

"What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

And that wasn't all. He attacked America for its record on human rights and for dropping atomic bombs on Japan World War II.

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care."

That brought an unusually subdued reaction from the White House.

"Nelson Mandela was a great leader. He remains a great man," said White House spokesman Ari Fleischer. "But on this the president and Nelson Mandela do not see eye to eye."

Fleischer pointed to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Mr. Bush.

"The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently" than Mandela, Fleischer said. "He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust."

While Mandela has repeatedly condemned U.S. behavior toward Iraq in recent months, his comments Thursday were far more critical and his attack on Mr. Bush far more personal than in the past.

"Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?" he asked. "All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil," he said.

He accused Mr. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the United Nations and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who is from Ghana.

"Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white," he said.

He said Mr. Bush was "trying to bring about carnage" and appealed to the American people to vote him out of office and demonstrate against his policies.

He also condemned Blair for his strong support of the United States.

"He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer prime minister of Britain," he said. That echoes a theme adopted by war opponents in Britain. Blair is to meet Mr. Bush for talks on Friday.

Mr. Bush hosted Mandela at the White House in November 2001, where Mandela expressed his sympathy for the Sept. 11 attacks and said he supported operations in Afghanistan.

Last July, the president awarded Mandela the Presidential Medal of Freedom — the nation's highest civilian honor — dubbing him "perhaps the most revered statesman of our time."

~~~~~~~~

Isn't is curious how Nelson Mandela is still on Bush's terror list today but was a guest at the White House in November 2001?

[Guest Guest]

No No, deadender..............your monkey boy doesn't get exoneration for Nelson Mandela residing on the US "terrorist" list for the entire Bush II disaster-era..........churlishly and seethingly explained by you that some mandated relic cast by a previous POTUS is to blame for Nelson Mandela's place of "terror" in these endless Bushdays of darkness..........no no Bryan........that will not fly here.

You are messageboard PETTY (and dishonest) excusing GWB's contentment to remain Nelson Mandela on the US terrorist list for what will be essentially his entire two miserable terms!

I call you DEADENDER for no small reason. You have a bacteria's mentality to defend this presidential pariah that we bleedingly sport.

Shall I explain to our audience Bryan, at your expense, how a coward and his coattailers get motivated to stack the deck against world class human decency?

George Monkey Bush had his coward's ax to grind with Nelson Mandela. It's revealing Bryan, that you are so suddenly OBLIVIOUS to this historic nugget and presently come down on the side of a jerk*ff when the writing is not only on the wall but upon the sky. You opine like the most reptilian of lawyers, a bottom feeder.

Everybody enjoys seeing an honest and courageous man get MAINTAINED a terrorist by a deviate American president, right Bryan? OR..........is "voices from god" Bush superman enough to allow Nelson Mandela his views without blowback?

Come kiss me sweet next retort, Bryan. I like my punching bags puckered with cheap lipstick.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/30/...ain538607.shtml

Mandela Slams Bush On Iraq

Calls U.S. Policy Arrogant And Shortsighted; Implies Bush Is Racist

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa, Jan. 30, 2003

Nelson Mandela accused President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the U.N. and suggested it might be because the current secretary-general, Kofi Annan, is black. (AP)

(CBS) A prominent new voice joined the international chorus of protest against U.S. preparations for war against Iraq on Thursday.

Former South African President Nelson Mandela delivered a fiery speech denouncing the United States and aiming harsh personal criticism at President Bush.

Mandela, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and one of the world's most respected elder statesmen, let the Bush administration have it right between the eyes, reports CBS News Correspondent Tom Fenton.

"It is a tragedy, what is happening, what Bush is doing. But Bush is now undermining the United Nations," Mandela told the International Women's Forum.

Mandela said he would support action against Iraq only if it is ordered by the U.N. He urged the people of the United States to join massive protests against Mr. Bush and called on world leaders, especially those with vetoes in the U.N. Security Council, to oppose him.

"What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

And that wasn't all. He attacked America for its record on human rights and for dropping atomic bombs on Japan World War II.

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care."

That brought an unusually subdued reaction from the White House.

"Nelson Mandela was a great leader. He remains a great man," said White House spokesman Ari Fleischer. "But on this the president and Nelson Mandela do not see eye to eye."

Fleischer pointed to a letter by eight European leaders reiterating their support of Mr. Bush.

"The president expresses his gratitude to the many leaders of Europe who obviously feel differently" than Mandela, Fleischer said. "He understands there are going to be people who are more comfortable doing nothing about a growing menace that could turn into a holocaust."

While Mandela has repeatedly condemned U.S. behavior toward Iraq in recent months, his comments Thursday were far more critical and his attack on Mr. Bush far more personal than in the past.

"Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly?" he asked. "All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil," he said.

He accused Mr. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair of undermining the United Nations and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who is from Ghana.

"Is it because the secretary-general of the United Nations is now a black man? They never did that when secretary-generals were white," he said.

He said Mr. Bush was "trying to bring about carnage" and appealed to the American people to vote him out of office and demonstrate against his policies.

He also condemned Blair for his strong support of the United States.

"He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer prime minister of Britain," he said. That echoes a theme adopted by war opponents in Britain. Blair is to meet Mr. Bush for talks on Friday.

Mr. Bush hosted Mandela at the White House in November 2001, where Mandela expressed his sympathy for the Sept. 11 attacks and said he supported operations in Afghanistan.

Last July, the president awarded Mandela the Presidential Medal of Freedom — the nation's highest civilian honor — dubbing him "perhaps the most revered statesman of our time."

~~~~~~~~

Isn't is curious how Nelson Mandela is still on Bush's terror list today but was a guest at the White House in November 2001?

Mandela is an ass.

[Bryan]

That's certainly a voluminous attempt to distract attention from your ridiculous "time line" (your own term) that had Bush organizing to make a terrorism list in 2003 while one of your examples was barred from travel in 2002.

Face it: You blundered big-time.

[Bryan]

Isn't is curious how Nelson Mandela is still on Bush's terror list today but was a guest at the White House in November 2001?

No. Not unless it's also curious that Mandela met with Bush at the White House in 2005.

News & Notes , May 17, 2005 · President Bush meets with former South African President and Nobel Laureate Nelson Mandela Monday. The two men are to discuss a range of topics, including Mandela's efforts to promote universal education in Africa and how to stem the growing AIDS crisis, particularly in South Africa. The meeting also culminates a weeklong American visit that Mandela admits he may be too frail to make again. Allison Keyes reports.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4654914

18 May 2005

Former South African president Nelson Mandela and US President George Bush discussed the battle against Aids in Africa and ways to reduce developing country debt in a meeting on Tuesday.

Mandela, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, met Bush at the White House during a private visit to the United States, the SA Press Association (Sapa) reported. The visit was to promote the Nelson Mandela Legacy Trust, which supports Mandela's African-based charities.

http://www.southafrica.info/what_happening...bush-180505.htm

Obviously your manties are in a twist. Your arguments are some of the most pathetic arguments ever.

[Guest *Autonomous*]

Obviously your manties are in a twist. Your arguments are some of the most pathetic arguments ever.

I dunno, this one has to come close:

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=85770

[Bryan]

I dunno, this one has to come close:

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=85770

Heh. Way to go with the sour grapes. The link you supplied features a relatively brilliant reductio ad absurdum that sinks the silly argument (by you) to which I had replied.

[Guest *Autonomous*]

Heh. Way to go with the sour grapes. The link you supplied features a relatively brilliant reductio ad absurdum that sinks the silly argument (by you) to which I had replied.

Modest as ever. If you read my reply you'd realize there's no sour grapes-just vast amounts of amusement.

[Bryan]

Modest as ever. If you read my reply you'd realize there's no sour grapes-just vast amounts of amusement.

I'd have to read your post uncharitably to believe that you failed to understand how your argument was brought low by the reductio ad absurdum.

If you were merely amused instead of airing sour grapes it speaks poorly of your intelligence. But I'll take your word for it, if you insist.

[Guest *Autonomous*]

I'd have to read your post uncharitably to believe that you failed to understand how your argument was brought low by the reductio ad absurdum.

If you were merely amused instead of airing sour grapes it speaks poorly of your intelligence. But I'll take your word for it, if you insist.

I note you won't respond to my actual response to your post in the other thread, troll. But feel free to think your pathetic confirmation bias indicates intelligence. You're such a brilliant troll, after all!

[Bryan]

I note you won't respond to my actual response to your post in the other thread, troll. But feel free to think your pathetic confirmation bias indicates intelligence. You're such a brilliant troll, after all!

Heh. All you did in your reply was confirm what you've re-confirmed in this thread: You didn't get it:

Three weeks and that's what you come up with? Obviously you aren't objecting to anything I said, you're making an ad hominem in a passive-aggressive manner. You don't even directly address anything I said.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=85834

So since you've got nothing, there's not much left for you to do but throw the "troll" label around a bit. Nice work, Autonomouse.

[Guest *Autonomous*]

Heh. All you did in your reply was confirm what you've re-confirmed in this thread: You didn't get it:

Three weeks and that's what you come up with? Obviously you aren't objecting to anything I said, you're making an ad hominem in a passive-aggressive manner. You don't even directly address anything I said.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=85834

So since you've got nothing, there's not much left for you to do but throw the "troll" label around a bit. Nice work, Autonomouse.

Please, oh wise one, explain how any of these:

I don't believe you're correct.

I don't believe you're dealing seriously with the issue that Gene and I were discussing.

I don't believe you have any idea what you're talking about.

Obviously I'm not objecting to anything you say ...

***

This illustrates the disingenuousness of some atheists.

actually addresses what I said. They comment on me, not my opinion.

I note that you left out this part of my post:

This illustrates the disingenuousness of some theists.

To address the point you almost made, here's the definition of object as a verb from dictionary.com:

10. to offer a reason or argument in opposition.

11. to express or feel disapproval, dislike, or distaste; be averse.

12. to refuse or attempt to refuse to permit some action, speech, etc.

There are a few options between "accept" and "object" unless you wish to redefine the terms.

Typical troll tactic.

[Bryan]

Please, oh wise one, explain how any of these:

actually addresses what I said. They comment on me, not my opinion.

Do I need to lead you by the hand to the dictionary definition of "reductio ad absurdum" or something?

I explained it.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=86122

You didn't get it, and you still don't get it.

I note that you left out this part of my post:

Typical troll tactic.

You're correct. Pursuing an irrelevancy as you did (engaging in an absurdity instead of a reductio ad absurdum) is a typical troll tactic. Leaving irrelevancies out of a reply is simply proper message board etiquette. But I think we can cut you a break since your trollish reaction appears to stem from the fact that you don't get it.