Merry Christmas

[Guest 2smart4u]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc. May you denounce the Dark Side

and enter the light. Pouring the Kool-aid down the drain is a good start.

[Autonomous]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

  the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc.  May you denounce the Dark Side

  and enter the light. Pouring the Kool-aid down the drain is a good start.

77087[/snapback]

Wow-even your own sacred holiday isn't sacred to you.

[Guest Guest]

Wow-even your own sacred holiday isn't sacred to you.

77147[/snapback]

Rage produces a blinding darkness. The amazing thing is, he thinks it's light.

[Strife767]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

  the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc.  May you denounce the Dark Side

  and enter the light.

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insiduously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to seperate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" --Aleksander Solzhenitsyn

Probably way over your head, but worth sharing for those you can actually read the above and understand it.

[Guest Guest]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

  the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc.  May you denounce the Dark Side

  and enter the light. Pouring the Kool-aid down the drain is a good start.

77087[/snapback]

What specifically makes them an atheist?

[Guest Guest]

Wow-even your own sacred holiday isn't sacred to you.

77147[/snapback]

Huh? Did you read the post?

[WilliamK]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

  the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc.  May you denounce the Dark Side

  and enter the light. Pouring the Kool-aid down the drain is a good start.

77087[/snapback]

Merry Christmas to you too, 2smart.

[Strife767]

I would like to wish "Merry Christmas" to all readers of KOTW, especially

  the atheists: Strife, Paul, Bern, etc., etc.  May you denounce the Dark Side

  and enter the light. Pouring the Kool-aid down the drain is a good start.

77087[/snapback]

Keep in mind that most families don't buy/have/erect a nativity scene, but just about everyone's got a Christmas tree (which is a tradition originating from Yule, a pagan holiday).

In other words, the holiday is what's made of it. I personally love this time of year, and atheists are not nearly the only people who enjoy it without bothering with any theistic 'baggage'.

In conclusion, whatever.

[Guest Guest]

Keep in mind that most families don't buy/have/erect a nativity scene, but just about everyone's got a Christmas tree (which is a tradition originating from Yule, a pagan holiday).

In other words, the holiday is what's made of it. I personally love this time of year, and atheists are not nearly the only people who enjoy it without bothering with any theistic 'baggage'.

In conclusion, whatever.

77213[/snapback]

Spin it any way you like Strifey, the Christmas exists for one reason.

[Guest Guest]

Keep in mind that most families don't buy/have/erect a nativity scene, but just about everyone's got a Christmas tree (which is a tradition originating from Yule, a pagan holiday).

How do you know this? Are you looking in peoples windows?

Prove it!

[Guest 1776]

Keep in mind that most families don't buy/have/erect a nativity scene, but just about everyone's got a Christmas tree (which is a tradition originating from Yule, a pagan holiday).

In other words, the holiday is what's made of it. I personally love this time of year, and atheists are not nearly the only people who enjoy it without bothering with any theistic 'baggage'.

In conclusion, whatever.

77213[/snapback]

That would be then a "Yule Tree" correct? After all calling it a Christmas Tree would just be adding to all that bothersome "theistic baggage"

Pagan, paganism is a loosely defined, broad term with many different applications.

Pagans were/are usually polytheistic. "Pagans" believe everything has a spirit. There are gods and goddesses for all things in nature and the physical and spiritual compliment one another; find a balance. Some choose to be atheistic in nature.

As Christians were being slaughtered in record numbers it seemed wise I imagine to blend in rather then stand out, if survival for future generations of Christians was the goal. When in Rome......do as the Romans.

"Pagans" might take a small clipping, a few branches, something token to bring into the home and welcome the coming of spring, the rebirth of the living world.

They would be more inclined to decorate "living" things - trees, outdoors.

The Christmas tree as we know it is a relatively modern invention.

By the bye ...

"We have placed too much hope in political and social reforms, only to find out that we were being deprived of our most precious possession: our spiritual life. "

You do the math

Spirituality is a core element of the human life. You choose how you want to embrace it.

.........or whatever.

Borrowing from Carl Sagan:

"...What does seventy million years mean to beings who live only one-millionth as long? We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it is forever."

and after being asked, "Now that you have successfully debunked everything that we have been taught to believe about the human role and origin in the Universe, what is there left for us?" His answer was "Do something worthwhile with this amazing life while you have it!"

Listen to the message ... live your life, make it worthwhile and then you're gone

[Guest Guest]

That would be then a "Yule Tree" correct? After all calling it a Christmas Tree would just be adding to all that bothersome "theistic baggage"

Pagan, paganism is a loosely defined, broad term with many different applications.

Pagans were/are usually polytheistic. "Pagans" believe everything has a spirit. There are gods and goddesses for all things in nature and the physical and spiritual compliment one another; find a balance.  Some choose to be atheistic in nature.

As Christians were being slaughtered in record numbers it seemed wise I imagine to blend in rather then stand out, if survival for future generations of Christians was the goal.  When in Rome......do as the Romans.   

"Pagans" might take a small clipping, a few branches, something token to bring into the home and welcome the coming of spring, the rebirth of the living world. 

They would be more inclined to decorate "living" things - trees, outdoors. 

The Christmas tree as we know it is a relatively modern invention.

By the bye ...

"We have placed too much hope in political and social reforms, only to find out that we were being deprived of our most precious possession: our spiritual life. "

You do the math

Spirituality is a core element of the human life.  You choose how you want to embrace it.

.........or whatever.

Borrowing from Carl Sagan:

"...What does seventy million years mean to beings who live only one-millionth as long? We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it is forever."

   

and after being asked, "Now that you have successfully debunked everything that we have been taught to believe about the human role and origin in the Universe, what is there left for us?" His answer was "Do something worthwhile with this amazing life while you have it!"

Listen to the message ... live your life, make it worthwhile and then you're gone

77280[/snapback]

You're making great points, but you're being overly sensitive. That defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Strife is also making excellent points about a holiday whose followers have encased it in dogma. That dogma, too, defeats spirituality.

It's easy to criticize the person who tells the emperor he has no clothes, but that's just killing the messenger. I doubt that he'd be making these points if people weren't trying to force their traditions on him, tweaking him, taunting him, etc. Spirituality isn't about placing blame, but unfortunately sometimes it has to be done, especially when a topic is opened with something so nasty aas this one was. If a culture is being misled by its own traditions, sooner or later someone ought to say something.

[WilliamK]

How do you know this? Are you looking in peoples windows?

77267[/snapback]

Of course. Many people position their Christmas trees next to a front window for the express purpose of having them visible from outside. Noticing them does not make you a peeping tom.

[Guest Paul]

That would be then a "Yule Tree" correct? After all calling it a Christmas Tree would just be adding to all that bothersome "theistic baggage"

Pagan, paganism is a loosely defined, broad term with many different applications.

Pagans were/are usually polytheistic. "Pagans" believe everything has a spirit. There are gods and goddesses for all things in nature and the physical and spiritual compliment one another; find a balance.  Some choose to be atheistic in nature.

As Christians were being slaughtered in record numbers it seemed wise I imagine to blend in rather then stand out, if survival for future generations of Christians was the goal.  When in Rome......do as the Romans.   

"Pagans" might take a small clipping, a few branches, something token to bring into the home and welcome the coming of spring, the rebirth of the living world. 

They would be more inclined to decorate "living" things - trees, outdoors. 

The Christmas tree as we know it is a relatively modern invention.

By the bye ...

"We have placed too much hope in political and social reforms, only to find out that we were being deprived of our most precious possession: our spiritual life. "

You do the math

Spirituality is a core element of the human life.  You choose how you want to embrace it.

.........or whatever.

Borrowing from Carl Sagan:

"...What does seventy million years mean to beings who live only one-millionth as long? We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it is forever."

   

and after being asked, "Now that you have successfully debunked everything that we have been taught to believe about the human role and origin in the Universe, what is there left for us?" His answer was "Do something worthwhile with this amazing life while you have it!"

Listen to the message ... live your life, make it worthwhile and then you're gone

77280[/snapback]

Interesting how people read each other. You "sound" upset with Strife (S), but yet if I read you correctly you're chastising S on the same grounds S is being critical of others. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Did you intend to suggest that S was being too critical of theism? If so, how do you square that with being critical of S?

I read Sagan as a deeply spiritual person. He was also an atheist as I understand it, deeply critical of theism and its baggage. I understand his comments to mean "live life to the fullest and don't be distracted by what you can't know and especially by what isn't real."

[Strife767]

That would be then a "Yule Tree" correct? After all calling it a Christmas Tree would just be adding to all that bothersome "theistic baggage"

It's also canned a tannenbaum. The terms are interchangeable--I suspect it only ever got started getting called a "Christmas tree" as a result of Christian 'assimilation' efforts of pagan holidays, which was common in the early days of Christianity. After all, Yule used to be celebrated following the lunar calendar, so it was about late December to early January. But it was in fact the process of Christianization that moved it to December 25th in order to correspond with what now is called Christmas. Of course, doing that makes it a lot easier to get people to acknowledge your holiday, but makes it a lot harder to get people to celebrate it the way you want them to.

Pagan, paganism is a loosely defined, broad term with many different applications.

I'm aware of that--I used the word along with the general meaning "not Christian, Jewish, or Islamic (in a religious context)".

Pagans were/are usually polytheistic. "Pagans" believe everything has a spirit. There are gods and goddesses for all things in nature and the physical and spiritual compliment one another; find a balance.  Some choose to be atheistic in nature.

You're confusing paganism (which is a lot broader than the narrow definition you provided) with Wicca, I think.

As Christians were being slaughtered in record numbers it seemed wise I imagine to blend in rather then stand out, if survival for future generations of Christians was the goal.  When in Rome......do as the Romans.   

"Pagans" might take a small clipping, a few branches, something token to bring into the home and welcome the coming of spring, the rebirth of the living world. 

They would be more inclined to decorate "living" things - trees, outdoors. 

The Christmas tree as we know it is a relatively modern invention.

The 1500s isn't THAT modern. And whatever you're talking about above isn't what the tree started as; the first trees were actual fir trees, not just a few branches (indeed, that's what "tannenbaum" is German for, and the tradition of the tree is Germanic in origin).

Not sure what the point of your post was, but I'll reiterate that anyone can enjoy this time of year for any number of reasons--"Christmas" as we know it is not something even close to exclusively Christian, and even atheists may call it that instead of "Yule" or whatever else for no other reason than force of habit. Once more, whatever.

[Strife767]

How do you know this? Are you looking in peoples windows?

Prove it!

77267[/snapback]

All you have to do is see (and this wouldn't even count the families that go and cut down a real tree) what sells faster in stores, and what there's higher demand for. If it was close, then it would take more, but it's pretty obvious that more Christmas trees are sold than nativity scenes. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those with nativities had trees too!

[Strife767]

Spin it any way you like Strifey, the Christmas exists for one reason.

77261[/snapback]

Yes, I'm sure no one thinks of anything but baby Jeebus at their Christmas parties.

http://www.history.com/minisites/christmas...age?pageId=1252

[Guest Guest]

What specifically makes them an atheist?

77166[/snapback]

Fundie Lunatics consider anyone who doesn't share their viewpoint to be an atheist and God-hater.

[Guest 2smart4u]

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insiduously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to seperate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" --Aleksander Solzhenitsyn

Probably way over your head, but worth sharing for those you can actually read the above and understand it.

77163[/snapback]

I don't equate atheism with evil, you do.

[Strife767]

I don't equate atheism with evil, you do.

77326[/snapback]

Excuse me, but you were the one specifically referring to atheists as people who were on the "Dark Side," stupid. Or did you forget what you wrote already?

[Guest Guest]

Interesting how people read each other. You "sound" upset with Strife (S), but yet if I read you correctly you're chastising S on the same grounds S is being critical of others. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Did you intend to suggest that S was being too critical of theism? If so, how do you square that with being critical of S?

I read Sagan as a deeply spiritual person. He was also an atheist as I understand it, deeply critical of theism and its baggage. I understand his comments to mean "live life to the fullest and don't be distracted by what you can't know and especially by what isn't real."

77299[/snapback]

So enlighten us, what "isn't real".

[Guest Guest]

Yes, I'm sure no one thinks of anything but baby Jeebus at their Christmas parties.

http://www.history.com/minisites/christmas...age?pageId=1252

77316[/snapback]

Showing the bias again. The very thing you criticize so many writers for here.

They can think of anything they like, it doesn't change the fact of why Christmas exists.

[Strife767]

Showing the bias again.

Explain the bias in the post you responded to, please. I'm not seeing it.

They can think of anything they like, it doesn't change the fact of why Christmas exists.

77359[/snapback]

"In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival." --http://tinyurl.com/y83wg8

[Guest 1776]

It's also canned a tannenbaum. The terms are interchangeable--I suspect it only ever got started getting called a "Christmas tree" as a result of Christian 'assimilation' efforts of pagan holidays, which was common in the early days of Christianity. After all, Yule used to be celebrated following the lunar calendar, so it was about late December to early January. But it was in fact the process of Christianization that moved it to December 25th in order to correspond with what now is called Christmas. Of course, doing that makes it a lot easier to get people to acknowledge your holiday, but makes it a lot harder to get people to celebrate it the way you want them to.

I'm aware of that--I used the word along with the general meaning "not Christian, Jewish, or Islamic (in a religious context)".

You're confusing paganism (which is a lot broader than the narrow definition you provided) with Wicca, I think.

The 1500s isn't THAT modern. And whatever you're talking about above isn't what the tree started as; the first trees were actual fir trees, not just a few branches (indeed, that's what "tannenbaum" is German for, and the tradition of the tree is Germanic in origin).

Not sure what the point of your post was, but I'll reiterate that anyone can enjoy this time of year for any number of reasons--"Christmas" as we know it is not something even close to exclusively Christian, and even atheists may call it that instead of "Yule" or whatever else for no other reason than force of habit. Once more, whatever.

77314[/snapback]

no denying the similarities, not here for a history lesson of the one true way or any broader picture (whose got the time for that here), not a flaming thread, just a friendly one. "whatever" snap! enough

Christmas

- Christ / mas

- Christ / Mass

- Mass = ritual of worship (in Christian religion, a celebration of the last supper,

the reception of the Eucharist)

- Christ's Mass - a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, the Holy Eucharist.

It can mean nothing else.

Don't carry my theistic baggage, i'm not asking you to.

You don't have to celebrate my holiday - my way. It's more than just a "holiday" to me anyway. But you do have to tell me what is celebrated, if not that - by that name.

If it be yule, or just solstice or maybe Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. Perhaps a celebration of Eid al-Adha. Call it that.

Happy extreme commercialism month? That's it.

Really, if you think for a moment, what is to be enjoyed about a frozen, barren, dark (relatively speaking) frenetic time of the year?

In no order here...

Tomato - Tomatoe, Paganini or Puccini - December 21 or 22 (props), Winter Solstice, beginning of the rebirth of the earth / December 25, Birth of Christ, beginning of the reconciliation of the peoples of the earth.

...or whatever else for no other reason than force of habit.

"... In God We Trust" " ... the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?"

it's just a force of habit - but that's just me, no big deal .... to me.

Tannenbaum - very nice German Fir tree, yes?

16th 17th 18th ok, it's all relative.

Trust me, pagans come in all flavors, but they all taste just like chicken.

Peace brother.

[Guest Guest]

no denying the similarities, not here for a history lesson of the one true way or any broader picture (whose got the time for that here), not a flaming thread, just a friendly one.  "whatever" snap! enough

Christmas   

-  Christ / mas 

-  Christ / Mass

-  Mass = ritual of worship (in Christian religion, a celebration of the last supper,

  the reception of the Eucharist)

-  Christ's Mass - a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, the Holy Eucharist.

It can mean nothing else.

Don't carry my theistic baggage, i'm not asking you to.

You don't have to celebrate my holiday - my way. It's more than just a "holiday" to me anyway. But you do have to tell me what is celebrated, if not that - by that name. 

If it be yule, or just solstice or maybe Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. Perhaps a celebration of Eid al-Adha. Call it that.

Happy extreme commercialism month? That's it.

Really, if you think for a moment, what is to be enjoyed about a frozen, barren, dark (relatively speaking) frenetic time of the year? 

In no order here...

Tomato - Tomatoe,  Paganini or Puccini -    December 21 or 22 (props), Winter Solstice, beginning of the rebirth of the earth / December 25, Birth of Christ, beginning of the reconciliation of the peoples of the earth.

"... In God We Trust"  " ... the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?" 

it's just a force of habit - but that's just me, no big deal .... to me.

Tannenbaum - very nice German Fir tree, yes?

16th 17th 18th ok, it's all relative.

Trust me, pagans come in all flavors, but they all taste just like chicken.

Peace brother.

77394[/snapback]

I might agree with you if not for the fact that people are fighting about it all over the world, all the time. That means it's a problem, which reasonable people cannot ignore.