Free speech, foreign concept to Canessa!

[Guest ahem]

Atleast he was preaching Judaism or the Koran. We'd have burned him at the stake by now, right? This isn't an argument about the seperation of church and state, it's about the seperation of Christianity and state. You people wouldn't like it if Mr. P. had said "well, because you're christian, according to my religion you belong in hell." god no. that's awful, but he's a christian. and no matter how crazy, backwards, outdated, and scary some christian practices and beliefs are, we still respect that religion, why? becuase well, it's american or some shit.

[Guest Steve_C]

BOO hOO! Christianity must really really bother you, huh? Man, I wonder why Atheisim or any other religion don't bother me at all...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not much for reading comprehension are you.

I was raised Catholic. So I know what's Jesus' teachings were.

Vmunchie doesn't seem to get it. I don't see any turning of the cheek.

I see alot of slapping from him. If christians truly followed his teachings

we wouldn't have teachers preaching in class and then lying and intimidating students.

Live and let live... but keep your demented twisted science and politics aways from the kids.

Dinosaurs and the bloody Ark? Idiocy.

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Paul wrote:

You won't see a divide in Mr. Paszkiewicz's church, I suspect, but what you will see is an answer that will curdle your blood if you really think about it. It shocks me that people can't see how obvious it is that no morally superior, supreme being would do as Mr. Paszkiewicz believes. Not that Mr. P's answer is a surprise to anyone. We're all pretty much aware what it is. That doesn't mean we must agree with it. Which of your children would you be willing to suffer in eternal torment if you had the power to stop it?

Indeed!

How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?

How could any Christian parent claim that they will be happy residing in Heaven, while believing that that their 'non-saved' children will at the same time be writhing in unending agony in the gruesome Hell which this monster god of theirs specifically created for the purpose of inflicting harm on them?

I have asked this very same question to members of my own family, and have received some very disappointing responses. So far, none of my family has said that they would speak out in protest to their god on my behalf, if by some remote chance the doctrine of Hellfire did turn out to be true. Their overwhelming desire for eternal salvation seems to have blinded their consciences to the suffering of others. Even to the suffering of an immediate family member! They are so shit-scared of being sent to God’s Gulag themselves, that they show themselves willing to sell a member of their own family down the river, in order not to jeopardize their own salvation. This is true of every Christian I have ever met. I know these concepts are not usually framed in as stark terms as this, but when you boil away all the fluff and the feathers, this is exactly what the Christian endorsement of Hellfire amounts to.

I have heard it said that anyone who endorses the concept of Hell deserves to be sent there themselves.

Do Christians ever consider the possibility that perhaps the only the people who will ultimately be judged worthy of entrance into heaven, are the ones who have the guts to speak out against this monstrous notion of eternal damnation? Can you imagine the look on many Christian's faces when they approach the pearly gates expecting admission, only to find their arses being sent the other way for having endorsed the concept of Hell during their own lives?

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Christians virtually rubbing their hands together in anticipation of some infidel like me being roasted on their celestial barbeque. Even the more moderate Christians, by refusing to speak out against this doctrine, are tacitly endorsing it.

Come on you moderate Christians (if there is such a thing), if you disagree with the doctrine of eternal Hellfire, then please have the guts and the common human decency to speak out against it to your clergyman, and to your more sadistic brethren, and to your god.

[Guest Patriot]

"Jeus saves" is no more a fragment than "Spot runs."

Universalism has never been an orthodox doctrine (in terms of mainstream Christianity).

Mostly likely, Paul, you haven't pondered the issue to any depth.  Thinkers way better than you or me have thought about and written on the topic in depth.  The arguments for the incompatibility of a loving god with an eternal hell are not easy to fashion without succumbing to fallacious argumentation (I know not one).

Which parent is perfectly just?

Paszkiewicz nailed it.  Why you can't see the problem his answer poses for your argument should come as a shock to all. 

The Ba'al worshipers are delighted to hear you say that. They have sons and daughters to burn.

No state can avoid meddling in religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ? Beautiful !! And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust". What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

[Guest bewildered]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It says that the people that originally put "In God We Trust" on our money used religion to push their political agendas. Just like the George Bush is doing today.

[Strife767]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".

"A number of theists also protest the use of ["In God We Trust" on currency]. United States President Theodore Roosevelt argued against the requirement of the motto on coinage...because he thought it sacrilegious to put the name of God on something so common as money. Indeed, a number of commandments forbidding the trivial use of God's name can be found in the Bible, such as Exodus 20:7, Deuteronomy 5:11, and Leviticus 19:12." --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Have theists really no shame in taking their God so lightly?

Also, it's just a matter of time before the rash acts of knee-jerking theists are undone. Look, the "one nation under God" thing is already in its dying breaths as part of our Pledge of Allegiance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk_Grove_Uni...trict_v._Newdow

[Strife767]

these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You think this is a "Christian nation," huh? Okay, I'll let you prove it.

Get a law to be passed that enforces the first Commandment (I'll even quote chapter and verse 'cause I have reasonable doubt that you even know exactly where in the Bible the Commandments are: Exodus 20:2-3 and Deuteronomy 5:6-7). Go ahead, try it. It would do you good to learn something about this nation first-hand.

If such a law were ever passed, then I would believe this to be a Christian nation. But as long as something as serious to a Christian as one of the Ten Commandments remains nothing to anyone in this country who doesn't want to acknowledge it, I'd have to say you're SOL in your delusions.

...the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

[Guest Patriot]

Paul wrote:

Indeed!

How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?

How could any Christian parent claim that they will be happy residing in Heaven, while believing that that their 'non-saved' children will at the same time be writhing in unending agony in the gruesome Hell which this monster god of theirs specifically created for the purpose of inflicting harm on them?

I have asked this very same question to members of my own family, and have received some very disappointing responses. So far, none of my family has said that they would speak out in protest to their god on my behalf, if by some remote chance the doctrine of Hellfire did turn out to be true. Their overwhelming desire for eternal salvation seems to have blinded their consciences to the suffering of others. Even to the suffering of an immediate family member! They are so shit-scared of being sent to God’s Gulag themselves, that they show themselves willing to sell a member of their own family down the river, in order not to jeopardize their own salvation. This is true of every Christian I have ever met. I know these concepts are not usually framed in as stark terms as this, but when you boil away all the fluff and the feathers, this is exactly what the Christian endorsement of Hellfire amounts to.

I have heard it said that anyone who endorses the concept of Hell deserves to be sent there themselves.

Do Christians ever consider the possibility that perhaps the only the people who will ultimately be judged worthy of entrance into heaven, are the ones who have the guts to speak out against this monstrous notion of eternal damnation? Can you imagine the look on many Christian's faces when they approach the pearly gates expecting admission, only to find their arses being sent the other way for having endorsed the concept of Hell during their own lives?

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen Christians virtually rubbing their hands together in anticipation of some infidel like me being roasted on their celestial barbeque. Even the more moderate Christians, by refusing to speak out against this doctrine, are tacitly endorsing it.

Come on you moderate Christians (if there is such a thing), if you disagree with the doctrine of eternal Hellfire, then please have the guts and the common human decency to speak out against it to your clergyman, and to your more sadistic brethren, and to your god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dingo, I think you've been spending too much time in the outback playing with your wallabe, you're starting to ramble.

[Guest Paul]

How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?

How could any Christian parent claim that they will be happy residing in Heaven, while believing that that their 'non-saved' children will at the same time be writhing in unending agony in the gruesome Hell which this monster god of theirs specifically created for the purpose of inflicting harm on them?

Do Christians ever consider the possibility that perhaps the only the people who will ultimately be judged worthy of entrance into heaven, are the ones who have the guts to speak out against this monstrous notion of eternal damnation?

Can you imagine the look on many Christian's faces when they approach the pearly gates expecting admission, only to find their arses being sent the other way for having endorsed the concept of Hell during their own lives?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are excellent questions. Don't expect any intelligent answers from the fundamentalists. (Since there aren't any intelligent answers consistent with a defense of the concept of hell.)

[Guest Guest]

Come on you moderate Christians (if there is such a thing), if you disagree with the doctrine of eternal Hellfire, then please have the guts and the common human decency to speak out against it to your clergyman, and to your more sadistic brethren, and to your god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You unwittingly imply that none are doing so. It must be so wonderful to be omniscient - perhaps we should start the church of Dingo Dave?

[Bern]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When the fathers of our country and our great constitutional founders were alive their motto was "E Pluribus Unum" - which was put on the Great Seal of the United States. Out of many, one. No such thing as "In God We Trust".

And even though we did not have the "In God We Trust" motto, for a new nation the US of A did exceedingly well.

"In God We Trust" was proposed in 1861 and accepted during the civil war.

[Guest Keith-Marshall,Mo.]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've said it before and I'll say it once more. If heaven is full of people like you then what is the payoff?

Tell me Patriot, what would things be like for the rest of us if you made all the rules?

[Guest Guest]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It also says UNITED States of America.

Of course YOU have never shown any interest in truth.

[an American in Texas]

DingoDave asked: "How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?"

A surprising number, Dave, of whom I am one. Come hang out with the liberal Methodists for a while -- many of us believe in universal salvation, and in fact that is what is taught at my church.

Like you, I am horrified by the idea that God -- anybody's God -- would tolerate the idea of His children suffering eternal, sadistic torture. Such a God would be unworthy of worship.

As I often ask in other forums: "Why would you tolerate in Deity that which you would unhesitatingly condemn as evil in your neighbor?"

Leigh

[an American in Texas]

And by the way, I often add: "If the fundamentalists are right, I'd rather be with the Mahatma in hell than in heaven with them and their god."

Leigh

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would appear that shiny trinkets and baubles are able to captivate your imagination to the exclusion of just about everything else my dear Pat-Rat.

As it turns out, I just happen to have a bridge for sale which I think you might be interested in buying. Are you familiar with the Brooklyn area?

[Guest Guest]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The love of money is the root of all evil.

And what was that about graven images?

*sigh*

[Guest Guest]

Tell me Patriot, what would things be like for the rest of us if you made all the rules?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ME! ME! ME!

THAT's an easy one, I want to answer!

If PatRat made all the rule, life for any reaonably intelligent person would truly be HELL on earth.

[Guest Guest]

Has anyone seen the new gold dollar coins ?  Beautiful !!  And best of all, they are inscribed with "In God We Trust".  What does that say about these Loony Lefty Atheists who clain we live in a secular society.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do realize they only changed the motto in 1956, right? I guess the sentiment of E Pluribus Unum didn't play well with the hicks.

[Strife767]

You unwittingly imply that none are doing so.

Oh, really? So when a pastor at church on Sunday urges the congregation to treat others well, he is "unwittingly imply"ing that none of them are doing so? And that's just one example.

I think you are reading what you want to read.

[Strife767]

DingoDave asked: "How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?"

A surprising number, Dave, of whom I am one.  Come hang out with the liberal Methodists for a while -- many of us believe in universal salvation, and in fact that is what is taught at my church.

Like you, I am horrified by the idea that God -- anybody's God -- would tolerate the idea of His children suffering eternal, sadistic torture.  Such a God would be unworthy of worship.

As I often ask in other forums:  "Why would you tolerate in Deity that which you would unhesitatingly condemn as evil in your neighbor?"

Leigh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I believed in a god, I would definitely think that "Heaven and Purgatory" make a lot more sense than "Heaven (and Purgatory) and Hell." Purgatory as I understand it is a concept of a place where a person's finite sins are redeemed in a finite way. That makes sense. Suffering eternally for a mere human lifetime of sin is absurd.

[Guest Dingo Dave]

DingoDave asked: "How many Christian parents are willing to show the fortitude to stand up to their religious leaders and to their god, and speak out in protest against this barbaric doctrine of eternal Hellfire for non-believers?"

A surprising number, Dave, of whom I am one.  Come hang out with the liberal Methodists for a while -- many of us believe in universal salvation, and in fact that is what is taught at my church.

Like you, I am horrified by the idea that God -- anybody's God -- would tolerate the idea of His children suffering eternal, sadistic torture.  Such a God would be unworthy of worship.

As I often ask in other forums:  "Why would you tolerate in Deity that which you would unhesitatingly condemn as evil in your neighbor?"

Leigh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Leigh,

It's encouraging to hear that not all those who label themselves as Christians, endorse the doctrine of eternal Hellfire.

Unfortunately, you and your fellow Universalists are only a tiny minority within the larger Christian community. It's also unfortunate that your views flatly contradict the numerous passages in the Bible where the doctrine of eternal suffering is explicitly and unapologetically promoted.

If there is no Hellfire, then what was it that the gospel Jesus meant when he himself taught the doctrine of Hell, and what is it that his torture and murder is supposed to save us from?

The gospel Jesus explicitly taught that finding yourself being thrown into Hell is a fate worse than death.

Luke 12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast you into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!"

In other words, fear Jesus and his dear old dad.

and;

Mark 16:16 " He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be damned."

If there is no Hell, then there is no need for fear, and no need for salvation. It's as simple as that.

The New Testament passages describing the fate of unbelievers are numerous and explicit. There is no escaping this fact. Jesus himself preached about Hell more often than any other New Testament figure did.

So, whilst I admire your efforts to disassociate the doctrine of Hellfire from the Christian religion, I'm afraid that you are fighting an uphill battle. It's a battle which you cannot possibly win.

The only way that the doctrine of Hell can be expunged from Christianity is to simply ignore, or flatly contradict the numerous New Testament passages which clearly teach it.

The vast majority of Christians worldwide would not consider your views, or the views of your church, to be ‘truly Christian’. They would accuse you of not being faithful to the texts themselves, or to the interpretations which all mainstream Christian communities have placed on them from the earliest of times. If you reject the notion of eternal Hellfire, then you can no longer be classified as a mainstream, orthodox Christian. Most Christians throughout the world would consider your views to be misguided and/or heretical. I don’t use the word heretical in an insulting or disparaging way, but as a simple statement of fact.

I suspect that most Christians, if asked, would tell you that you may well be condemned to Hell yourself for holding such views, and not so long ago you would have been forced to recant under the threat of persecution, or torture, or worse.

This is the unfortunate reality for any who choose to ignore or contradict what the Bible actually teaches about Hell.

[oldfart56]

Dear Leigh,

It's encouraging to hear that not all those who label themselves as Christians, endorse the doctrine of eternal Hellfire.

Unfortunately, you and your fellow Universalists are only a tiny minority within the larger Christian community. It's also unfortunate that your views flatly contradict the numerous passages in the Bible where the doctrine of eternal suffering is explicitly and unapologetically promoted.

If there is no Hellfire, then what was it that the gospel Jesus meant when he himself taught the doctrine of Hell, and what is it that his torture and murder is supposed to save us from?

The gospel Jesus explicitly taught that finding yourself being thrown into Hell is a fate worse than death.

Luke 12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast you into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!"

In other words, fear Jesus and his dear old dad.

and; wow you are good!  i can see you have had lots of time to study! so where did GOD let you down? or i will say think he did! 

Mark 16:16 " He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be damned."

If there is no Hell, then there is no need for fear, and no need for salvation. It's as simple as that.

The New Testament passages describing the fate of unbelievers are numerous and explicit. There is no escaping this fact. Jesus himself preached about Hell more often than any other New Testament figure did.

So, whilst I admire your efforts to disassociate the doctrine of Hellfire from the Christian religion, I'm afraid that you are fighting an uphill battle. It's a battle which you cannot possibly win.

The only way that the doctrine of Hell can be expunged from Christianity is to simply ignore, or flatly contradict the numerous New Testament passages which clearly teach it.

The vast majority of Christians worldwide would not consider your views, or the views of your church, to be ‘truly Christian’. They would accuse you of not being faithful to the texts themselves, or to the interpretations which all mainstream Christian communities have placed on them from the earliest of times. If you reject the notion of eternal Hellfire, then you can no longer be classified as a mainstream, orthodox Christian. Most Christians throughout the world would consider your views to be misguided and/or heretical. I don’t use the word heretical in an insulting or disparaging way, but as a simple statement of fact.

I suspect that most Christians, if asked, would tell you that you may well be condemned to Hell yourself for holding such views, and not so long ago you would have been forced to recant under the threat of persecution, or torture, or worse.

This is the unfortunate reality for any who choose to ignore or contradict what the Bible actually teaches about Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Bern]

Opps, it seems in God We Trsut was left out of some of our newest coins. I guess now we will all go to you know where.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/A...ss-Dollars.html

[Guest Dingo Dave]

oldfart56 wrote:

and;  wow you are good!  i can see you have had lots of time to study! so where did GOD let you down? or i will say think he did!

Which god?

Do you mean Zeus, or Brahma, or Shiva, or Ammon Ra, or Allah, or Ahura Mazda, or Poseidon, or.........?