The Muslim student P thinks is bound for hell

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Mr. P should apologize to the community and ask for forgiveness.  His zealot attitude about Jesus flies in the face of what Jesus stood for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I’m sorry to have to disagree with you D.A., but in my opinion, Mr. P's attitude actually agrees quite well with what Jesus preached and stood for. Many people seem to be under the mistaken impression that the gospel Jesus was a tolerant and gentle man, who accepted the differences in other people’s religious opinions and philosophies. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. Please go back and carefully re-read your Bible.

Jesus was actually a fanatical and intolerant cult leader, who ranted and raved against anyone who did not agree with his claims and teachings. Throughout the Gospels, he was consistently both rude and angry towards anyone who contradicted him, or who didn’t understand what he was trying to say.

Jesus showed absolutely no love or respect for his ideological opponents. He even condemned the populations of several entire towns to Hell because they did not accept his grandiose claims.

Read these passages from the New Testament.

Matthew 11:20-24

Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

And;

Luke 10:8-16

Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,`Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

And;

Luke 19:27-28

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me." And when he had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.

And;

Matthew 23:15

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."

Does this sound peaceful and tolerant to you, or does it sound fanatical and cultish?

Unfortunately, this kind of verbal abuse was typical of Jesus’ approach towards unbelievers.

When we actually examine the attitude and behavior of the gospel Jesus, we no longer need to wonder why his followers come across as being violent, angry and intolerant. They are simply following Jesus’ example.

[Guest Patriot]

Someone I know once said "No one can make a fool out of you. You can only make a fool out of yourself." Mr. P's defenders seem to forget that Mr. P is being harmed by his own words. I have no power to paint him. His own words and actions paint him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone I know once said "Some people are such pathethic creatures that they gain a sense of importance by bloviating on internet message boards". While most people would be bored senseless by such endless drivel, others become obsessed by it, to the point where it becomes the focal point of their lives.

[Guest Paul]

I’m sorry to have to disagree with you D.A., but in my opinion, Mr. P's attitude actually agrees quite well with what Jesus preached and stood for. Many people seem to be under the mistaken impression that the gospel Jesus was a tolerant and gentle man, who accepted the differences in other people’s religious opinions and philosophies. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. Please go back and carefully re-read your Bible.

Jesus was actually a fanatical and intolerant cult leader, who ranted and raved against anyone who did not agree with his claims and teachings. Throughout the Gospels, he was consistently both rude and angry towards anyone who contradicted him, or who didn’t understand what he was trying to say.

Jesus showed absolutely no love or respect for his ideological opponents. He even condemned the populations of several entire towns to Hell because they did not accept his grandiose claims.

Read these passages from the New Testament.

Matthew 11:20-24

Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent.  "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

And;

Luke 10:8-16

Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,`Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

And;

Luke 19:27-28

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me."  And when he had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.

And;

Matthew 23:15

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."

Does this sound peaceful and tolerant to you, or does it sound fanatical and cultish?

Unfortunately, this kind of verbal abuse was typical of Jesus’ approach towards unbelievers.

When we actually examine the attitude and behavior of the gospel Jesus, we no longer need to wonder why his followers come across as being violent, angry and intolerant. They are simply following Jesus’ example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave: On the other hand, there are many pearls of wisdom in the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. Many people prefer to listen to those, and ignore ones like those you just posted. Of course, that only works if one doesn't accept the narrative literally, but draws out the spiritual lessons where they are.

[Guest Paul]

Someone I know once said "Some people are such pathethic creatures that they  gain a sense of importance by bloviating on internet message boards".  While most people would be bored senseless by such endless drivel, others become obsessed by it, to the point where it becomes the focal point of their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When your son has the courage to take an unpopular stand for the right reasons, let me know about it.

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Dave: On the other hand, there are many pearls of wisdom in the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. Many people prefer to listen to those, and ignore ones like those you just posted. Of course, that only works if one doesn't accept the narrative literally, but draws out the spiritual lessons where they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you offer me a few examples that;

A] Hadn't already been said by someone else before him,

B] Are not just mundane platitudes which anyone with a bit of common sense would not already follow, and

C] Which are of any practical use in our modern society?

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Dave: On the other hand, there are many pearls of wisdom in the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. Many people prefer to listen to those, and ignore ones like those you just posted. Of course, that only works if one doesn't accept the narrative literally, but draws out the spiritual lessons where they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you offer me a few examples which;

A] Hadn't already been said by someone else before him,

B] Are not just mundane platitudes which anyone with a bit of common sense would not already follow, and

C] Which are of any practical use in our modern society?

[Guest KearnyKard]

Someone I know once said "Some people are such pathethic creatures that they  gain a sense of importance by bloviating on internet message boards".  While most people would be bored senseless by such endless drivel, others become obsessed by it, to the point where it becomes the focal point of their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen, Brother !!

[Guest Guest]

Someone I know once said "No one can make a fool out of you. You can only make a fool out of yourself." Mr. P's defenders seem to forget that Mr. P is being harmed by his own words. I have no power to paint him. His own words and actions paint him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And it seems on more than one occasion Paul has made a fool of himself. It comical to see his royal fatness sit there day after day looking for someone to sue next.

[Strife767]

Dave: On the other hand, there are many pearls of wisdom in the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.

However, none of them are unique to those teachings, nor did they 'occur' first in them, I've learned. Most people don't seem to be aware of that. For example, the ethic of reciprocity (the "Golden Rule") is first seen as early as 1970 BCE.

[Guest Paul]

Could you offer me a few examples that;

A] Hadn't already been said by someone else before him,

B] Are not just mundane platitudes which anyone with a bit of common sense would not already follow, and

C] Which are of any practical use in our modern society?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well now wait a minute, Dave. I didn't say they were unique to Jesus of Nazareth. We're on the same side of these issues, but this time you're guilty of reacting. You're acting as though you want to force me into a corner. Why would you want to do that?

My favorite NT stories include the good samaritan, the person who was a greater hero because though poor gave all she could give and of course the Golden Rule. There are many others. They are of great value in any society and for that reason are not merely "mundane platitudes." The fact that they can be and are told in different ways and in different places does not diminish their value and their wisdom.

We have to give credit where it is due. That means seeing and appreciating the contributions made by those with whom we disagree on some important issues.

[Guest Paul]

[someone I know once said "Some people are such pathethic creatures that they  gain a sense of importance by bloviating on internet message boards".  While most people would be bored senseless by such endless drivel, others become obsessed by it, to the point where it becomes the focal point of their lives.]

Amen, Brother !!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You folks sure are worried about how I spend my time. Have you ever wondered why you're so worried about that, and what it means that you're so pre-occupied with it?

[Calybos]

Someone I know once said "Some people are such pathethic creatures that they  gain a sense of importance by bloviating on internet message boards".  While most people would be bored senseless by such endless drivel, others become obsessed by it, to the point where it becomes the focal point of their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which explains why you're still here sniping even though every "argument" you've made has been shot down. With very little apparent effort.

I'm still enjoying the irony of a fool who hates freedom and the Constitution calling himself "patriot."

[Guest guest]

Really? I thought he just wanted him to admit his mistake, apologize and promise not to do it again. Then everyone could move on. Why hasn't Mr.P done this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hasn't the school board reprimanded the teacher and told him not to let it happen again? I haven't heard of him doing it again, so he must have 'listened' to the orders of the school board. So let's put an end to repreating this old story over and over; and get on with other 'problems' in Kearny; that is "unless he does it again".... Then the'd be a 'reasom' to 'reasurrect' the story.

Because, if he has shown that, he has heeded the orders of the school board and has not been reported as having done it 'again'; then the only people who keep beating a dead horse and won't let the matter die, is the student and his parents; who seem to not care whetheeer everyone's LOCAL TAXES, WATER, ETC GO UP BECUSE OF ALL OF THE LEGAL FEES THE TOWN IS P[AYING . since the teacher hasn't done a 'repeat " performance and has 'chosen' to take the instructions of the school board in order to keep his job; the MATTER should be DONE WITH, as long as the teacher gave no reson for a 'repeat' by showing that he took the board's advice.

[Guest Dingo Dave]

Well now wait a minute, Dave. I didn't say they were unique to Jesus of Nazareth. We're on the same side of these issues, but this time you're guilty of reacting. You're acting as though you want to force me into a corner. Why would you want to do that?

My favorite NT stories include the good samaritan, the person who was a greater hero because though poor gave all she could give and of course the Golden Rule. There are many others. They are of great value in any society and for that reason are not merely "mundane platitudes." The fact that they can be and are told in different ways and in different places does not diminish their value and their wisdom.

We have to give credit where it is due. That means seeing and appreciating the contributions made by those with whom we disagree on some important issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Paul,

I did not ask these questions with the intention of backing you into a corner. That would be unproductive. I asked them in order to highlight the fact that Jesus' reputation for being a wise and level-headed sage and philosopher, is in my opinion, highly overrated.

Some of Jesus' admonishments such as to love our neighbours, and to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, were and are good precepts to follow, but were not original with Jesus.

Both Rabbi Hillel and Apollonius of Tyana taught much the same sorts of concepts long before Jesus came on the scene, and without all the threats of eternal damnation for not obeying, which accompanied Jesus' teachings.

Other of Jesus' teachings, such as not to resist evil; to take no thought for tomorrow; that we are to give to anyone who asks or begs from us; that we should all practice a strict form of communism; that it is preferable not to marry; that it is possible to commit thought crimes; that we should hate our parents if they are not members of the cult; that we should place a higher value on the cult leader than on our families; that we should amputate body parts if they somehow cause us to sin , and that we should even hate our own lives; do in my opinion, far outweigh any of the good stuff that he might have taught.

We must also keep in mind the motivating reason which Jesus gave for following these admonishments, which was "So that your father in heaven will reward you". In other words, either do all of these things or be condemned to an eternity in Hell. I’m sorry, but I simply cannot view these kinds of ideas as being truly moral.

The following brief excerpt from an online article, pretty well sums up my thoughts on the matter of Jesus’ status as a sage.

“Much has been said by Christians, and Christian theologians, about the supposed originality and beauty of the ethical teachings of Jesus. The quotation below, by the Christian historian, Philip Schaff (1819-1893), is a typical example:

“It is universally admitted...that Christ taught the purest and sublimest of ethics, one which throws the moral precepts and maxims of the wisest men of antiquity far into the shade.”

There is only one problem with the statement above: it is simply not true!

Where his ethical teachings are attractive, they were not original.

Where his teachings were original, they are repugnant.

It is clear that when the glasses of faith are taken off, the ethical teachings of Jesus are neither unique nor sublimely beautiful. As a teacher of ethics Jesus cannot be considered one of the greats. At best, he was an ‘also-ran’.” - http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/ethics.html

I’m sorry if this comes across as sounding somewhat harsh and uncompromising. I know that we agree on many issues, and I respect your right to disagree with me on this particular one.

I genuinely appreciate your efforts to accommodate the views of others within your community, and if I were in your position, I would probably approach these issues with considerably more tact and decorum than I have so far displayed on these forums as well.

My motivation for asking these questions was to try to cause people to examine some of their preconceptions, as well as to elicit some feedback and stimulate some thoughtful conversation. Sometimes ‘shock tactics’ can achieve this goal, sometimes not.

If some of what I have written causes people to stop and reflect, then I feel that I have gone some way towards achieving this goal.

[Guest Guest]

When your son has the courage to take an unpopular stand for the right reasons, let me know about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see your son following through with all this. I see his lawyer daddy trying to do damage control by constantly blogging hoping someone will listen to his feeble attempts to discredit someone. I haven't seen one of the boys posts here in some time ?

And who are you do dictate what is and what is not the right reason?

If this subject is so unpopular than why is it right?

[Guest Guest]

Then why did he ignore my invitation to speak and work a miracle together? That is exactly how I put it to him. Why don't you ask him why he ignored the invitation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it was after the fact. Because you son had already backstabbed him once already.

Oh so now you want to be a miracle worker? Wondering what you charge for that one?

[Strife767]

Because it was after the fact. Because you son had already backstabbed him once already.

Backstabbed? There is no excuse, none whatsoever, for Paszkiewicz to not be aware that what he was doing was wrong (he teaches US HISTORY, for crying out loud). Instead of showing humility at being caught, he, thinking there was no proof, tried to lie his way out of it and make himself out to be the victim, acting like the direct quotes Matthew had questioned him about were 100% invented and false.

[Strife767]

Hasn't the school board reprimanded the teacher and told him not to let it happen again?  I haven't heard of him doing it again, so he must have 'listened' to the orders of the school board.  So let's put an end to repreating this old story over and over; and get on with other 'problems' in Kearny;

Do you really think that a mere "don't do it again" is enough for someone who, after saying the stuff he said in class:

1. Refuses to apologize

2. Acts as if he did nothing wrong, instead trying to paint Matthew as the 'bad guy'

3. Blatantly lied about his actions

4. Continues to spew his anti-science nonsense in class (remember him comparing global warming to Hitler's propaganda machine?)

And do not forget about the growing number of 'testimonials' coming out about Paszkiewicz saying equally outrageous things in previous years.

This is no fluke. I don't think he deserves another chance, just because this happens to be the first time he is definitively 'caught.'

the only people who keep beating a dead horse and won't let the matter die, is the student and his parents; who seem to not care whetheeer everyone's LOCAL TAXES, WATER, ETC GO UP BECUSE OF ALL OF THE LEGAL FEES THE TOWN IS P[AYING.

If Paszkiewicz and the Board do what they should do, this matter will end quickly, without litigation. Ball's in their court--if this matter goes to a courtroom, it is their fault for being too stubborn to do the right thing on their own.

since the teacher hasn't done a 'repeat " performance and has 'chosen' to take the instructions of the school board in order to keep his job; the MATTER should be DONE WITH, as long as the teacher gave no reson for a 'repeat' by showing that he took the board's advice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This would be appropriate if this was a fluke or something like that. But it isn't.

[Guest Habab]

Then why did he ignore my invitation to speak and work a miracle together? That is exactly how I put it to him. Why don't you ask him why he ignored the invitation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my country we do not go back to the same area once we know that there was a snake in it?

[Foger]

I guess is Mr. P. that has the media on speed dial? I don't think so.

You are the one that has been in every news broadcaster, you are the one taking you son to visit schools out of this area to talk about this and looking to recruit support. Because you know here the only support your get is from Strife and the mayor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is being blogged about, all over the country. I first read about this issue at bluejersey.net, by poster njdem:

http://www.bluejersey.net/showDiary.do?diaryId=4057

I would offer if the Kearny School Board had done the right thing when this problem first occured, the issue would have wilted on the vine. But the School Board has behaved in such a way as to garner national attention.

Now that the national spotlight is on Kearny, will the School Board conitnue to embarass?

Progressives from across NJ are looking at Kearny to see how this goes down. SO if you dont want people from out of the area )Kearny) to flock to your town like flies on a dead bird in the street, clean up your street.

[Guest Paul]

Dear Paul,

I did not ask these questions with the intention of backing you into a corner. That would be unproductive. I asked them in order to highlight the fact that Jesus' reputation for being a wise and level-headed sage and philosopher, is in my opinion, highly overrated.

Some of Jesus' admonishments such as to love our neighbours, and to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, were and are good precepts to follow, but were not original with Jesus.

Both Rabbi Hillel and Apollonius of Tyana taught much the same sorts of concepts long before Jesus came on the scene, and without all the threats of eternal damnation for not obeying, which accompanied Jesus' teachings.

Other of Jesus' teachings, such as not to resist evil; to take no thought for tomorrow; that we are to give to anyone who asks or begs from us; that we should all practice a strict form of communism; that it is preferable not to marry; that it is possible to commit thought crimes; that we should hate our parents if they are not members of the cult; that we should place a higher value on the cult leader than on our families; that we should amputate body parts if they somehow cause us to sin  , and that we should even hate our own lives; do in my opinion, far outweigh any of the good stuff that he might have taught.

We must also keep in mind the motivating reason which Jesus gave for following these admonishments, which was "So that your father in heaven will reward you". In other words, either do all of these things or be condemned to an eternity in Hell. I’m sorry, but I simply cannot view these kinds of ideas as being truly moral.

The following brief excerpt from an online article, pretty well sums up my thoughts on the matter of Jesus’ status as a sage.

“Much has been said by Christians, and Christian theologians, about the supposed originality and beauty of the ethical teachings of Jesus. The quotation below, by the Christian historian, Philip Schaff (1819-1893), is a typical example:

“It is universally admitted...that Christ taught the purest and sublimest of ethics, one which throws the moral precepts and maxims of the wisest men of antiquity far into the shade.”

There is only one problem with the statement above: it is simply not true!

Where his ethical teachings are attractive, they were not original.

Where his teachings were original, they are repugnant.

It is clear that when the glasses of faith are taken off, the ethical teachings of Jesus are neither unique nor sublimely beautiful. As a teacher of ethics Jesus cannot be considered one of the greats. At best, he was an ‘also-ran’.” - http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/ethics.html

I’m sorry if this comes across as sounding somewhat harsh and uncompromising. I know that we agree on many issues, and I respect your right to disagree with me on this particular one.

I genuinely appreciate your efforts to accommodate the views of others within your community, and if I were in your position, I would probably approach these issues with considerably more tact and decorum than I have so far displayed on these forums as well.

My motivation for asking these questions was to try to cause people to examine some of their preconceptions, as well as to elicit some feedback and stimulate some thoughtful conversation. Sometimes ‘shock tactics’ can achieve this goal, sometimes not.

If some of what I have written causes people to stop and reflect, then I feel that I have gone some way towards achieving this goal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave, I appreciate all your comments, and agree with many of them.

Just as a suggestion, there is a profound difference between using a historical figure's words to motivate a community, versus using those words to judge the figure. I see no point in trying to judge a historical figure so far removed from us in time. So a more relevant question is: how are the teachings being used. Of course, this varies from community to community, culture to culture. In general, though, to those who see Jesus as divine, the answer heads in one direction, to those who see him as a teacher, the answer heads in another. You're making another point, which is valid, but mainly to the extent of trying to judge the person. I'm asking: why do that? At the risk of sounding preachy myself, you may find that your writing will take on a less hostile tone if you remove yourself from any focus on using the statements attributed to Jesus as a take-off point for a wholesale judgment about him.

[Guest Paul]

I don't see your son following through with all this. I see his lawyer daddy trying to do damage control by constantly blogging hoping someone will listen to his feeble attempts to discredit someone.  I haven't seen one of the boys posts here in some time ?

And who are you do dictate what is and what is not the right reason? 

If this subject is so unpopular than why is it right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You assume it's unpopular. I disagree. From all the evidence I've seen, it is widely popular outside Kearny, in fact the support appears to be nearly uniform. Within Kearny there appears to be a small but highly vocal group of critics who've tried to deflect attention from the teacher's conduct by focusing on the student's conduct and motives, both of which are legally irrelevant.

Instead of getting all twisted around that I've asked a question you can't answer or made a comment you can't resond to with a cogent argument, put the proposition to the test. If this was a kid who held up a grocery store, would it get all this attention, or anywhere near? If not, why not? If you can't answer that question honestly, logically, reasonably and substantively, then you're not looking at this clearly. Oh, and yes, I'm entitled to say that. You don't have to agree, but I invite you to think about the question and see whether you can answer it. If you don't think Matthew was operating from the "right reason," then say why. Don't you think that's your obligation?

[Guest Paul]

Because it was after the fact. Because you son had already backstabbed him once already. 

Oh so now you want to be a miracle worker?  Wondering what you charge for that one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a vast difference between backstabbing and turning in someone who was caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

The miracle will be free, but all parties will have to lend their enthusiastic participation.

[Guest Patriot]

You folks sure are worried about how I spend my time. Have you ever wondered why you're so worried about that, and what it means that you're so pre-occupied with it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you draw the assumption that anyone's "worried" ?? The point was the obsession that some pathethic creatures have with internet message boards.

[Bern]

How do you draw the assumption that anyone's "worried" ??  The point was  the obsession that some pathethic creatures have with internet message boards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul is a prime player in this debacle. I would think he'd be interested in comments and respond since most comments are directed at him.

You seem to be posting almost as much as Paul. So what is your stake that is causing you to post so obsessively?