"Preaching" in class?

[Bryan]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters:

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

3. To deliver (a sermon).

v. intr.

1. To deliver a sermon.

2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

[ElneClare]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach[/url]

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bryan I have taken the time to answer you, but I don't expect it will help talk the scales off you spin on wither Mr P was preaching in class or not.

I put in bold the uses of the word preach that cover were a teacher can not talk about their Faith or Religion in a public classroom. Notice that both defininions 3 in the American Heritage Dict. and 2 from Dictionary.com, both start with the words "To advocate".

Mr P words his statements in a way that makes it clear that he feel his religion is the Truth and non-believer will go to Hell.

2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach[/url]

Mr P. also goes on in the Oct 10 tape, to claim that he has made the safety of his students his priority.

Seems to me that in his view that would include "Saving" them from their sinful ways and accepting Jesus as their Savior. While this is acceptable in a church or street corner, Constitutional Law has clearly stated over the years that it is not allow in a public classroom setting.

I don't plan to respond to any of your responds to this post. I learn long ago that it is useless to try to argue with people who try to use logic to cover the fact that their position is weak. So I will refrain from getting in to o verbal war of words with you over the meaning of a word, as you seem to like to use again an again.

PS. I hope the misspelling of the word Dictionary was a typo on your part. While Google would like to correct spelling inside quotes I will not, as there are several spell checkers that work with browsers available online for free. My spelling is so bad that I spell check every post I make now online.

[Guest Guest]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. This is where Paul will run into trouble in a jury trial. Unless Strifey is on the jury and The Crying Judge from FL is on the bench.

[Guest Paul]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He means what the US Supreme Court means, and also the Kearny Board of Education in the policy it is set to adopt: He may not express a view in class supporting a religious opinion. It's not just my opinion. It's the law.

[God Save Us From Christians]

To claim that Christianity is the only true faith, and that people who don't accept Jesus as savior are going to hell is what is forbidden in class.

You can play all your semantic games, Bryan, but the fact remains that P. should keep his religious views to himself or his fellow Baptists.

[Stixx3969]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe next you can give us the official definition of "splitting hairs"

[Strife767]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seriously hope Paszkiewicz's side, if they're stupid enough to take the issue to court, attempts this line of reasoning. I'm sure the judge could use a good laugh at such an obvious straw-grasping exercise.

There is no question that the first quote in my signature, among other things on the class recordings, are preaching.

[Calybos]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

I'd say most of them. Any of the definitions that mention "sermon" or "gospel" would qualify, since that would violate the religious neutrality required by the Constitution.

[Guest Dingo Dave]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try just about all of the above.

Bryan, you've lost the plot.

[Guest Guest]

LaClairs or LaClair supporters: 

What sense of "preaching" is forbidden in class?

Preach

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).

2. to deliver (a sermon).

3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

–verb (used without object)

4. to deliver a sermon.

5. to give earnest advice, as on religious or moral subjects or the like.

6. to do this in an obtrusive or tedious way.

(American Heritage Dictonary)

  1. To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

  2. To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

  3. To deliver (a sermon).

v.  intr.

  1. To deliver a sermon.

  2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach

IOW, when Matthew accuses Paszkiewicz of "preaching" his views, what does he mean by it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul doesn't know what preaching is, his actions show that he probably never stepped in a church before.

[Guest qetzal]

Prediction (submitted when 9 posts were visible): when Bryan responds, it will be to argue semantics.

[Bryan]

I put in bold the uses of the word preach that cover were a teacher can not talk about their Faith or Religion in a public classroom.  Notice that both defininions 3 in the American Heritage Dict. and 2 from Dictionary.com, both start with the words "To advocate".

Typically when people choose the words they use in communication, they have one particular meaning in mind.

Sometimes definitions overlap somewhat, but even so it is typically possible to pick one that comes closest to representing the intended meaning.

This shouldn't be difficult.

Mr P words his statements in a way that makes it clear that he feel his religion is the Truth and non-believer will go to Hell.

2. To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preach[/url]

So you think the above definition fits your description of Paszkiewicz's words?

I don't plan to respond to any of your responds to this post.  I learn long ago that it is useless to try to argue with people who try to use logic to cover the fact that their position is weak.

I'm dealing with the position of others, here.

The illogic of your position is duly noted. You seem to affirm that if I find logical problems with your argument (such as fallacies), your argument is good anyway.

Is that reasonable?

[Bryan]

He means what the US Supreme Court means, and also the Kearny Board of Education in the policy it is set to adopt: He may not express a view in class supporting a religious opinion. It's not just my opinion. It's the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Maybe there's a special definition of "religious opinion" in play?

If so, perhaps Paul can express it in words instead of turning to rhetorical Jell-O by pawning the definition off on the thoughts or unspecified words of others?

[Guest Guest]

He means what the US Supreme Court means, and also the Kearny Board of Education in the policy it is set to adopt: He may not express a view in class supporting a religious opinion. It's not just my opinion. It's the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Paul - I don't know if you've discussed it, but it seems like a lot of people don't seem to understand Marbury and the judiciary's role in interpreting the Constitution. Hence, those who google "Constitution" and read it find the proscriptions at issue hard to find.

If anyone has posted to this issue, is there a link?

[Guest Guest]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Maybe there's a special definition of "religious opinion" in play?

If so, perhaps Paul can express it in words instead of turning to rhetorical Jell-O by pawning the definition off on the thoughts or unspecified words of others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bryan - you are a very, very, very bright individual. As an exercise in debate, I would love to see you make the argument FOR the LaClair family. I would also love to see Paul and Strife make the argument FOR Mr. P.

This was a technique frequently used by Hereclitius (who penned "Much knowledge does not teach wisdom."). He stated that - quite often - the end result only solidified the arguments in his mind - but at least it gives him the opportunity to consider the claim from the otherside of the fence and look for previously unseen opportunities to compromise and resolve difficult issues.

Give it a shot - I think your insights into the contrary argument would be compelling.

[Strife767]

Paul doesn't know what preaching is,

His definition correlates to that used by the Supreme Court.

his actions show that he probably never stepped in a church before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that's mature. The funny part is how many people are more than willing to preach _outside_ of church. Paszkiewicz is living proof that one can be plenty exposed to preaching regardless of church attendance.

[Strife767]

Prediction (submitted when 9 posts were visible): when Bryan responds, it will be to argue semantics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lol, good call. XD

[Strife767]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Wow, do you honestly think that the concept of murder being morally wrong originated in religion? And even if it did, do you honestly think that there is no way to reach a moral conclusion against murder without religion? What ridiculous notions--to state that a decision that murder is morally wrong is inherently religious is just so amazingly ludicrous.

[Guest Paul]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Maybe there's a special definition of "religious opinion" in play?

If so, perhaps Paul can express it in words instead of turning to rhetorical Jell-O by pawning the definition off on the thoughts or unspecified words of others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That murder is wrong is not merely a religious opinion. It is also a secular value. You're making a fool of yourself, Bryan.

[an American in Texas]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Maybe there's a special definition of "religious opinion" in play?

If so, perhaps Paul can express it in words instead of turning to rhetorical Jell-O by pawning the definition off on the thoughts or unspecified words of others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bryan, since you like logic, let me point out that your post is a good example of a fallacy of definition, in this case, an over-narrow definition.

It is true that "murder is wrong" is a religious opinion. It is, however, not JUST a religious opinion. In fact, most religions and all secular law systems (at least those with which I have any familiarity) also define murder as a wrong.

If "murder is wrong" were merely a religious opinion, unique to one sect or branch of Christianity (for example), then I would agree it should not be taught in public schools.

But your false dilemma (teach or not teach) fails because your definition and its implication (prohibition of murder is ONLY a religious opinion) is too narrow.

Leigh

[an American in Texas]

YAUG said: "Paul doesn't know what preaching is, his actions show that he probably never stepped in a church before. "

Paul's churchgoing habits -- or lack thereof -- are none of our business.

But I'm a churchgoer myself, brought up in the Southern Baptist church and now a faithful communicant of the United Methodist Church.

And I can tell you, I've heard less hellfire and brimstone preached from many a pulpit (even in the Southern Baptist days) than Mr. P managed to cram into a class supposedly on U.S. history.

Leigh

[Calybos]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Incorrect. It is a philosophical opinion held by many cultures and religions that murder is wrong. If it were SOLELY a religious opinion, then obviously teaching the same would be 'religious instruction.'

A better analogy would be a history teacher announcing that eating pork is sinful.

[Guest Guest]

Does the law express itself in the same unfortunate terms you chose?

It is a religious opinion that murder is wrong.

(Exodus 20:13)

Any disagreement?

Is it OK in a public school to support that religious opinion in class?

Maybe there's a special definition of "religious opinion" in play?

If so, perhaps Paul can express it in words instead of turning to rhetorical Jell-O by pawning the definition off on the thoughts or unspecified words of others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you have to mention Exodus to voice anything about murder? The Bible mentions incest too. Do you want that taught?

Isn't there a difference between teaching something and endorsing something?

Certainly there is no argument against teaching about the Pilgrims, the Protestant movement, the Crusades, Gregor Mendel, Papal history, persecution of the Jews...

I'd like to see how you focus your insight on the mention of these subjects:

- Evolution

- HPV

- Sex

- Homosexuality

I am glad there are stewards of free speech such as yourself.

[Guest Guest]

YAUG said: "Paul doesn't know what preaching is, his actions show that he probably never stepped in a church before. "

Paul's churchgoing habits -- or lack thereof -- are none of our business.

But I'm a churchgoer myself, brought up in the Southern Baptist church and now a faithful communicant of the United Methodist Church.

And I can tell you, I've heard less hellfire and brimstone preached from many a  pulpit (even in the Southern Baptist days) than Mr. P managed to cram into a class supposedly on U.S. history.

Leigh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shame! Shame! Shame!

You have to go tell your pastor he is not doing a very good job then.

Here is some food for you soul.

If you pastor isn't preaching the Gospel, perhaps he is one of the pastors Jesus is talking about in this verse.

Matthew 7:21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Bryan]

That murder is wrong is not merely a religious opinion.

It is also a secular value.

What is a "value" if it's not just another name for an opinion?

You're making a fool of yourself, Bryan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm delighted to see that you did not forget to include an insult.