Angry Christians

[Guest Guest]

"It's not a theory. It's a fact. There are no known conscious entities that have no organic brain. "

How do yo know?

[Guest Guest]

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

You're writing about Einstein without understand what he wrote. He did not believe in a supreme being. In his conception, God was the natural order of the universe, not a being that created the universe. On that subject, he wrote: "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems." He also wrote: "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Furthermore, his speculations in his statement about God not playing dice were proved incorrect.

On the subject of religion, you should read the great man's writings more carefully. Einstein espoused a natural piety, a reverence for nature. That is what he was referring to in his comments about science being lame without religion. He was saying that without values grounded in a reverence for nature, or reality, science has no compass. Notably, you ignore the second part of that statement: "religion without science is blind." He was saying that uninformed, scientifically ignorant religion knows nothing. Einstein was religious but he did not believe in a god. His religion was that of natural piety, as alluded to earlier. Stephen Hawking has explained Einstein’s views and added a more up-to-date understanding of the universe to them.

[Guest Guest]

We will be circulating a petition around Kearny soon, demanding the mayor call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. We will demand the mayor put an end to this foolish holiday tree nonsense which is nothing more than political correctness run amuck. As close as can be determined, Kearny is at least 80% Christian and we demand the return of our Christmas tree.

Demand all you want. The Town of Kearny is governed by the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. So even if you force the mayor to call the holiday tree a Christmas tree, the town will still have to have a display that does not favor Christianity over other religious perspectives. Mayor Santos is too intelligent and too well-schooled in Constitutional law (which was his field of practice) not to know that.

You don't seem to understand that the majority does not rule on matters of religion. Religion is an individual personal right, and every citizen has a constitutional right to have the government treat his religion equally. The fact that Christians are a majority in this town is of no legal consequence. Religion is not up for a vote. What will it take for you to get that through your head?

If you ever did get a mayor who was willing to violate the U.S. Constitution to promote your religion, you would face a legal challenge, which you would lose. In the process, you would cost the Town of Kearny many thousands of dollars, as David Paszkiewicz and the Board of Education did a few years ago. And as happened then, you would lose.

[Guest Guest]

"Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all"

How do you know this, please tell me where I can find physical proof not just your rantings! Seriously I would love to see the proof. Oh and instead of repeating posit why not use postulate?

Are you serious? Human beings are conscious. Our consciousness is a product of a functioning brain. When the brain dies, consciousness ceases. That is why we put dead people in a box and bury them six feet underground - or cremate them, or whatever - because they're dead. Being dead, they have ceased to experience anything or be aware of anything. Their consciousness is gone, and therefore for all practical purposes, so are they.

Consciousness comes from a functioning brain. When the brain ceases to function, consciousness ends. It's the same with every species. Those with brains are conscious. Those without brains are not conscious. And those whose brains have ceased to function are no longer conscious. If you really don't understand this, I'll give you a reading list. For now, start with Daniel Dennett's book Consciousness Explained. If you still don't understand, I'll give you some links.

[Guest Guest]

"Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all"

How do you know this, please tell me where I can find physical proof not just your rantings! Seriously I would love to see the proof. Oh and instead of repeating posit why not use postulate?

Yikes! This is such an obvious point . . . but I'll assume you're serious and answer your question.

You're conscious right now, reading this, right? Why are you conscious? It's because your brain is working, firing impulses across synapses, etc. All of that is physical. It's the only way consciousness is known to exist.

Look at it from the other direction. What if your brain stopped working? Would you be conscious? No, you wouldn't. You would be dead.

You were given a very simple challenge: provide a counterexample, and you'll prove what you call "rantings" wrong. Provide one example of something that is conscious without having a physical body, and brain. If you can do that, you will go down in history as having made one of the greatest discoveries ever. If you can't, then you're the one who is ranting.

[Guest Guest]

Wow you are so smart!!! You know such big words! I for one am very impressed!

No problem. I'll simplify it so you can understand it.

To think, you have to have a brain.

[Guest Guest]

We will be circulating a petition around Kearny soon, demanding the mayor call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. We will demand the mayor put an end to this foolish holiday tree nonsense which is nothing more than political correctness run amuck. As close as can be determined, Kearny is at least 80% Christian and we demand the return of our Christmas tree.

Oh, for goodness' sake. If you're going to call yourself a Christian, act like it.

[Guest Kerny Christian]

"Only a maniac would design a universe, and living beings, this way if he was omnipotent."

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Pity the poor atheists who cling to serendipity and happenstance to explain the wonder and beauty of the universe.

[Guest Guest]

"The very fact that you think you have to fight for it puts the lie to everything you've written."

That makes absolutely no sense!

[Guest Guest]

"Only a maniac would design a universe, and living beings, this way if he was omnipotent."

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

If Einstein could accept the idea of a Creator or God who are you to question him?

[Guest Guest]

It's not a theory. It's a fact. There are no known conscious entities that have no organic brain.

Prove me wrong with a counterexample if you can.

Still waiting for an answer. Of course, the correct is "there aren't any counterexamples. All that is conscious has an organic brain."

Watching people run away from the truth is fascinating. Everyone knows this is true but put it up against some people's religion, and watch them do everything they can to ignore the fact.

[Guest Guest]

"None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However:
Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness."
Do anyone of us have the framework to discuss the theory you present regarding consciousness?

NO!!!!

Of course we do. We have the framework of everything we know. Read it again.

[Guest Guest]

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

The Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry is misleading. Einstein characterized himself as an agnostic on this question, mainly because he was put off by the atheists he knew. But when you read what he said and wrote on the subject of a god, it is clear that he did not believe in a supreme being. Spinoza was a pantheist, who saw God as nature. In his time, this was a radical departure from theism, which virtually everyone espoused. So when Einstein expressed his belief in "Spinoza's God," he was saying that he thought a unity of all things was important. So he used the word God but he didn't mean what most people mean by it. He made that very clear, repeatedly. In short, he believed in the unity of nature and called it God. By the way, when you lift a quotation from somewhere else, you should cite your source. The above is lifted word-for-word from a site called "Evidence for God."

[Guest Guest]

You're writing about Einstein without understand what he wrote. He did not believe in a supreme being. In his conception, God was the natural order of the universe, not a being that created the universe. On that subject, he wrote: "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problemthe most important of all human problems." He also wrote: "[/size]I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[/size]"[/size] Furthermore, his speculations in his statement about God not playing dice were proved incorrect.

On the subject of religion, you should read the great man's writings more carefully. Einstein espoused a natural piety, a reverence for nature. That is what he was referring to in his comments about science being lame without religion. He was saying that without values grounded in a reverence for nature, or reality, science has no compass. Notably, you ignore the second part of that statement: "religion without science is blind." He was saying that uninformed, scientifically ignorant religion knows nothing. Einstein was religious but he did not believe in a god. His religion was that of natural piety, as alluded to earlier. Stephen Hawking [/size]has explained Einsteins views and added a more up-to-date understanding of the universe to them.[/size]

All you do is contradict yourself! Was there a designer or not? You can't have it both ways!!! And stop trying to dazzle us with your brilliance and answer the facking question!!!

[Guest Guest]

"Still waiting for an answer. Of course, the correct is "there aren't any counterexamples. All that is conscious has an organic brain."

How do you know this???? Please explain!!!

[Guest Guest]

You prove me wrong! You can't!

If you understood one thing about science or logic, you would understand the value of a counterexample. I've made a categorical statement: all conscious entities have a brain. Example: you. You're conscious because you have a brain. We're all that way. So are our cats, dogs, horses, pigs, even fish - everything that is conscious has a functioning organic brain. If you provide one counterexample, you disprove the argument. That's how it's done. There is no counterexample, and you can't think of one. If you could, you would name it.

[Guest Guest]

The Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry is misleading. Einstein characterized himself as an agnostic on this question, mainly because he was put off by the atheists he knew. But when you read what he said and wrote on the subject of a god, it is clear that he did not believe in a supreme being. Spinoza was a pantheist, who saw God as nature. In his time, this was a radical departure from theism, which virtually everyone espoused. So when Einstein expressed his belief in "Spinoza's God," he was saying that he thought a unity of all things was important. So he used the word God but he didn't mean what most people mean by it. He made that very clear, repeatedly. In short, he believed in the unity of nature and called it God. By the way, when you lift a quotation from somewhere else, you should cite your source. The above is lifted word-for-word from a site called "Evidence for God."

That my misguided friend is your interpretation! And from what I've read and researched about Einstein you couldn't be more wrong! And as soon you quote all your sources so will I! I'm sorry ,you have not presented an original thought in this whole thread you are just regurgitating the info your Daddy has fed you Matt ! Sad for a supposedly smart young boy you have never thought for yourself! And don't try to argue we know its you!!!

[Guest Guest]

"It's not a theory. It's a fact. There are no known conscious entities that have no organic brain. "

How do yo know?

Because we know what produces consciousness. It's a product of the components of the organic brain, like neurons and synapses. We now have real-time MRIs that can measure activity in the brain as it processes information. Researchers can correlate that activity with specific emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc. I've read quite a bit on the subject and suggest you do the same. It isn't a matter of any controversy, and frankly, I'm surprised you would choose to argue about this. Everybody knows that consciousness comes from the brain. See also posts 54 and 55.

[Guest Guest]

Are you serious? Human beings are conscious. Our consciousness is a product of a functioning brain. When the brain dies, consciousness ceases. That is why we put dead people in a box and bury them six feet underground - or cremate them, or whatever - because they're dead. Being dead, they have ceased to experience anything or be aware of anything. Their consciousness is gone, and therefore for all practical purposes, so are they.

Consciousness comes from a functioning brain. When the brain ceases to function, consciousness ends. It's the same with every species. Those with brains are conscious. Those without brains are not conscious. And those whose brains have ceased to function are no longer conscious. If you really don't understand this, I'll give you a reading list. For now, start with Daniel Dennett's book Consciousness Explained. If you still don't understand, I'll give you some links.

You really have no clue! I'm sorry and don't mean to be condescending but your beliefs about consciousness at the end of the day will be about as accurate as the theory that the Earth is flat!!!

[Guest Guest]

The Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry is misleading. Einstein characterized himself as an agnostic on this question, mainly because he was put off by the atheists he knew. But when you read what he said and wrote on the subject of a god, it is clear that he did not believe in a supreme being. Spinoza was a pantheist, who saw God as nature. In his time, this was a radical departure from theism, which virtually everyone espoused. So when Einstein expressed his belief in "Spinoza's God," he was saying that he thought a unity of all things was important. So he used the word God but he didn't mean what most people mean by it. He made that very clear, repeatedly. In short, he believed in the unity of nature and called it God. By the way, when you lift a quotation from somewhere else, you should cite your source. The above is lifted word-for-word from a site called "Evidence for God."

Do you quote your sources? Ummmmm nope think not!!!

[Guest Guest]

Still waiting for an answer. Of course, the correct is "there aren't any counterexamples. All that is conscious has an organic brain."

Watching people run away from the truth is fascinating. Everyone knows this is true but put it up against some people's religion, and watch them do everything they can to ignore the fact.

This is your concept of your truth! If you really searched for truth you would know you know nothing!!!

[Guest Guest]

"Everyone knows this is true but put it up against some people's religion, and watch them do everything they can to ignore the fact. "

If as you say EVERYONE knows this is true you would not have anyone to argue with! Now since the term everyone is all encompassing and I disagree with you your argument is fundamentally flawed!!!

[Guest Guest]

The Encyclopedia Brittanica's entry is misleading. Einstein characterized himself as an agnostic on this question, mainly because he was put off by the atheists he knew. But when you read what he said and wrote on the subject of a god, it is clear that he did not believe in a supreme being. Spinoza was a pantheist, who saw God as nature. In his time, this was a radical departure from theism, which virtually everyone espoused. So when Einstein expressed his belief in "Spinoza's God," he was saying that he thought a unity of all things was important. So he used the word God but he didn't mean what most people mean by it. He made that very clear, repeatedly. In short, he believed in the unity of nature and called it God. By the way, when you lift a quotation from somewhere else, you should cite your source. The above is lifted word-for-word from a site called "Evidence for God."

Nope! Wrong!!!

[Guest Guest]

Are you serious? Human beings are conscious. Our consciousness is a product of a functioning brain. When the brain dies, consciousness ceases. That is why we put dead people in a box and bury them six feet underground - or cremate them, or whatever - because they're dead. Being dead, they have ceased to experience anything or be aware of anything. Their consciousness is gone, and therefore for all practical purposes, so are they.

Consciousness comes from a functioning brain. When the brain ceases to function, consciousness ends. It's the same with every species. Those with brains are conscious. Those without brains are not conscious. And those whose brains have ceased to function are no longer conscious. If you really don't understand this, I'll give you a reading list. For now, start with Daniel Dennett's book Consciousness Explained. If you still don't understand, I'll give you some links.

How do you know! So your saying nowhere in the cosmos is a consciousness without a physically constructed brain that consists of what we believe to be matter? Prove to me no consciousness outside of your narrow minded concept exists! Try as you may you can't!!!

[Guest Guest]

The day I became smart was the day I realized what I truly know as fact is nothing!!!