Guest Guest Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 How you think people of other faiths would react if Christians decided to put forth an agenda to hijack other religions Holy Days. For example: Ramadan will be X-Adan Krishna Janmashtami will be X-Janmashtami Rosh Hashanah will X-Rosh Yom Kippur will be X-Kippur Alban Elfed will be X-fed Navratri will be X-Atri Samhain will be X-Hain Hanukkah will be X-Ukah Just to change a few. Hmmm seems ridiculous dosnt it? I have news for you: Christians have put forth an agenda to hijack other religions' high holy days. During the period when Christianity rose to dominance in Europe, that is exactly what "Christians" did. But hey, now that the people you like are in control, the ends justify the means, right? Amazing how people can so easily overlook their own biases. Oh, you be sure to let us know when any part of your fantasy comes true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 How you think people of other faiths would react if Christians decided to put forth an agenda to hijack other religions Holy Days. For example: Ramadan will be X-Adan Krishna Janmashtami will be X-Janmashtami Rosh Hashanah will X-Rosh Yom Kippur will be X-Kippur Alban Elfed will be X-fed Navratri will be X-Atri Samhain will be X-Hain Hanukkah will be X-Ukah Just to change a few. Hmmm seems ridiculous dosnt it? Your high holy day became commercialized, which is the main reason people started calling it x-mas. Most of the business owners and consumers who commercialized it were Christian. It isn't likely that they were doing it to insult other Christians or demean the faith. In fact, some people called it "x-mas" to distinguish the commercial elements of the season from the sacred religious holiday. There are always going to be some people who will criticize or demean something. But this discussion was about the mayor and our town council. They haven't done any of that. In fact, the mayor is Catholic, and I think the council members are all Christian too. The other thing this discussion was about was calling the tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree. That's not demeaning or ridiculous either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However: Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. I love my life, and the fact that others can have life too. But I am one of the lucky ones who lives to evaluate it. The amount of pointless suffering experienced by other living beings is incalculable, so mainly we don't think about it. We avoid thinking about it. Only a maniac would design a universe, and living beings, this way if he was omnipotent. #22 *Guest* Guests Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:33 PM Guest, on 04 Jan 2014 - 09:08 AM, said: Please allow me to present two premises for discussion. #1 Premise #1: If the universe evinces purposeful design, there must have been a designer. Premise #2: The universe does evince purposeful design. Conclusion : Thus the universe must have had a designer. #2 Premise #1: If the universe evinces traits of non-design, there is no designer. Premise #2: The universe does evince non-design. Conclusion: Thus the universe had no designer. Which premise seems more probable? "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However: Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. I love my life, and the fact that others can have life too. But I am one of the lucky ones who lives to evaluate it. The amount of pointless suffering experienced by other living beings is incalculable, so mainly we don't think about it. We avoid thinking about it. Only a maniac would design a universe, and living beings, this way if he was omnipotent." How can you say we don't have any framework to evaluate the question? Look around observe life and nature! That is your framework! Observe the world in which you live and compare the two conclusions. And your opinion that only a maniacal omnipotent would design this wonderful world we live in is very sad! And that's just my opinion! And you comment regarding consciousness is patently false! How could anyone possibly know whether consciousness pre-existed matter or not? Where is your evidence? Where is your physical proof? Or are you accepting a theory that has been put forth by a group of individuals with no real physical proof? Wouldn't that take some degree of BLIND FAITH on your part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Your high holy day became commercialized, which is the main reason people started calling it x-mas. Most of the business owners and consumers who commercialized it were Christian. It isn't likely that they were doing it to insult other Christians or demean the faith. In fact, some people called it "x-mas" to distinguish the commercial elements of the season from the sacred religious holiday. There are always going to be some people who will criticize or demean something. But this discussion was about the mayor and our town council. They haven't done any of that. In fact, the mayor is Catholic, and I think the council members are all Christian too. The other thing this discussion was about was calling the tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree. That's not demeaning or ridiculous either. Actually you are incorrect...people ASSumed that "X"-mas was intended to name the seaon and leave the religious tone out...In Actuality the "X" is the Greek symbol for Christ. The "A-Mas" people saw was from the Greek Orthodox xhurch... so keep using "X-Mas" sparky, it makes me laugh every time you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I feel nothing but sorrow for atheists, poor lost souls. I used to think that, too. In fact, I told an atheist friend in high school that I felt sorry for her. Then I grew up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 How can you say we don't have any framework to evaluate the question? Look around observe life and nature! That is your framework! Observe the world in which you live and compare the two conclusions. And your opinion that only a maniacal omnipotent would design this wonderful world we live in is very sad! And that's just my opinion! And you comment regarding consciousness is patently false! How could anyone possibly know whether consciousness pre-existed matter or not? Where is your evidence? Where is your physical proof? Or are you accepting a theory that has been put forth by a group of individuals with no real physical proof? Wouldn't that take some degree of BLIND FAITH on your part? That's right, it is just your opinion. And since neither you nor anyone else knows the ultimate nature or shape of reality, none of us has any framework for evaluating the question. It means that no one knows what the ultimate context of reality is. Are there really four dimensions, three of space and one of time, or are there more dimensions? No one knows. Are time and space really linear, as we experience them? Einstein already proved that wasn't true, they are relative. Does time have a beginning and an end? Does space? Or are they infinite? Either way, you run into a wall - a contradiction - if you try to extend your supposition in linear modes of thought that reflect our observation of nature. That is what is meant by "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question." The only conclusion we can draw is that there are things we don't understand. But once you admit that we don't understand them, you can only posit the existence of a creator by contradicting your admission of the ignorance that is part of the human condition. You posit a conscious being predating and creating matter. Every known conscious entity derives its consciousness from a physical, organic brain. Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all, so you posit a conscious entity predating the physical universe. That supposition is based solely on your wish that it be so, and is completely contrary to everything we know about consciousness for the reasons just explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Actually you are incorrect...people ASSumed that "X"-mas was intended to name the seaon and leave the religious tone out...In Actuality the "X" is the Greek symbol for Christ. The "A-Mas" people saw was from the Greek Orthodox xhurch... so keep using "X-Mas" sparky, it makes me laugh every time you do. So go ahead and laugh, bucko. That way maybe you'll stop whining about people calling it "X-mas." Meaning is a function of intent. Our intent today is not the same as the ancient Greeks. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as the ancient Greeks meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christian majority Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The tree at town hall in Kearny was up and decorated on the Winter Solstice, which is approximately three or four days before Christmas. In fact, the tree was up and decorated for approximately a month, during which time many holidays occurred. But you complain only about Christianity being slighted in some way, which clearly shows that your complaint is only a reflection of your bias. We have one decorated tree at town hall, which is up during everyone's holiday. Yet you seem to think it's exclusive to your religion, as though you owned it, and no one else gets to use it. You don't even see the other people and their religions. In your myopic view, it's as though they don't even exist. That seems to be a common pattern among some (certainly not all) people who call themselves Christians. They don't even understand their own religion. The history of Paganism and Christianity is an interesting one. Elaine Pagels has an interesting book on the subject, as do others. In the fourth century, Christians took the Pagan holiday as their own, then shut the Pagans out of it. Christianity's history is not always a peaceful one. So you might want to be careful about arguing that someone else has stolen your religious symbol. In fact, early Christians are the ones who stole the Pagan holiday. And let's all be thankful that nothing like that is going on in Kearny. The town is just trying to have a nice little display that includes everyone, why do you have to ruin it by whining that it isn't just for you? So what do you propose? Shall we have an entire forest of trees on the lawn at town hall, one tree for each religion? I like the idea of one tree to celebrate all the holidays. That way we can all celebrate them together, as one community, even though we don't all subscribe to the same religion. E pluribus unum - from many, one. Good idea, don't you think? If you would just stop looking at religion as a way of dividing people, and think of it as a way to bring people together, the "problem" that doesn't exist except in your head would go away. And you'd be so much happier, as would our entire community. Let's all pull together. Such ignorance. It is a CHRISTMAS TREE, period. We're not sharing our CHRISTMAS TREE with atheists, moon worshipers, goat worshipers or any other misguided fools I expect Kearny to come to their senses beginning next year and display a Christmas tree or there may be protests in front of town hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However: Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness." Do anyone of us have the framework to discuss the theory you present regarding consciousness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The day is whatever people make of it. Much of what it has become is due to commercialism. The most important thing is, you are free to celebrate it as you choose, and it shouldn't bother you if others either celebrate it in their own way, or don't celebrate it at all. No matter how you twist and turn this "discussion," there are some people who want to force others to do things their way. That's not freedom. It's not even Christian. I have to disagree with you that the day is mine to celebrate as I see fit! That at its core makes no sense! That means we should deconstruct every holiday we don't believe in and twist it and change it into something to suit our belief or lack of belief system. If this was not agenda driven people would just treat December 25th as just another day in the holiday season, but they don't they make a concerted effort to try to change the meaning of the day. And as much as you try you cannot change the meaning of the celebration of Christmas! Take away the commercialism take away Santa, presents and all the trappings and you have what we are fighting for A day to celebrate the birth of Christ! I do not begrudge you your right not to believe, I am not shoving down your throat Christianity, as when I celebrate the Fourth of July I'm not forcing you to believe in a system for the people and by the people! I'm recognizing the day and what it stands for! No more no less! What don't you understand about that? Or do you understand all to well??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Christians secularized Christmas by commercializing it and mixing it with Santa Claus and his reindeer, and quite a few other things. If you want your high holy day to be seen as sacred, then don't trivialize it yourself. Don't blame other people for what you did to your own religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 None of those religions has ever been culturally dominant here. Make any of them dominant in a nation committed to religious liberty for everyone, and have the adherents to the dominant religion force their religion on everyone as many Christians have done here, and the same thing will happen. Or maybe you would like a law banning use of the word "x-mas." Hmmm? Yea you have no agenda!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However: Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness." Do anyone of us have the framework to discuss the theory you present regarding consciousness? It's not a theory. It's a fact. There are no known conscious entities that have no organic brain. Prove me wrong with a counterexample if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I have to disagree with you that the day is mine to celebrate as I see fit! That at its core makes no sense! That means we should deconstruct every holiday we don't believe in and twist it and change it into something to suit our belief or lack of belief system. If this was not agenda driven people would just treat December 25th as just another day in the holiday season, but they don't they make a concerted effort to try to change the meaning of the day. And as much as you try you cannot change the meaning of the celebration of Christmas! Take away the commercialism take away Santa, presents and all the trappings and you have what we are fighting for A day to celebrate the birth of Christ! I do not begrudge you your right not to believe, I am not shoving down your throat Christianity, as when I celebrate the Fourth of July I'm not forcing you to believe in a system for the people and by the people! I'm recognizing the day and what it stands for! No more no less! What don't you understand about that? Or do you understand all to well??? If you maintain that I cannot celebrate when and as I choose, then by your own admission, you are trying to force me to do it your way. Every day is ours to celebrate as we see fit. Nothing is stopping you and other Christians from celebrating Christmas as a high holy day but you have no right to force that on others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Such ignorance. It is a CHRISTMAS TREE, period. We're not sharing our CHRISTMAS TREE with atheists, moon worshipers, goat worshipers or any other misguided fools I expect Kearny to come to their senses beginning next year and display a Christmas tree or there may be protests in front of town hall. Well, that's mighty Christian of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I have to disagree with you that the day is mine to celebrate as I see fit! That at its core makes no sense! That means we should deconstruct every holiday we don't believe in and twist it and change it into something to suit our belief or lack of belief system. If this was not agenda driven people would just treat December 25th as just another day in the holiday season, but they don't they make a concerted effort to try to change the meaning of the day. And as much as you try you cannot change the meaning of the celebration of Christmas! Take away the commercialism take away Santa, presents and all the trappings and you have what we are fighting for A day to celebrate the birth of Christ! I do not begrudge you your right not to believe, I am not shoving down your throat Christianity, as when I celebrate the Fourth of July I'm not forcing you to believe in a system for the people and by the people! I'm recognizing the day and what it stands for! No more no less! What don't you understand about that? Or do you understand all to well??? The very fact that you think you have to fight for it puts the lie to everything you've written. You don't have to fight at all. You have complete freedom to celebrate and worship as you see fit. Kearny has plenty of churches if you want to attend a mass or service. But it seems to bother you if everyone else doesn't make your holiday special too. You make it very clear that you think December 25th is special, and that everyone must see it that way. If you don't see how that amounts for forcing your belief system on others, then you're just not being honest with yourself, or with anyone else. The Fourth of July is a completely different matter. It is not a religious holiday. It is a secular national holiday commemorating the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and our declaration of freedom from Great Britain. As such, it makes sense that government will support it. But even then, no one can be forced to join in. If someone wants to use the day to commemorate stamp collecting, no harm will be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question. However: Consciousness pre-existing matter is contrary to everything we know about consciousness." Do anyone of us have the framework to discuss the theory you present regarding consciousness? NO!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 "Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all" How do you know this, please tell me where I can find physical proof not just your rantings! Seriously I would love to see the proof. Oh and instead of repeating posit why not use postulate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Christmas has never been FORCED upon the American people. The forcing is actually coming from those trying to remove it from American culture. Christmas came to the new world with the pilgrims and has been celebrated by citizens, villages, towns, cities ever since. Now that Ive cleaned my monitor screen of the coffee that shot out my nose when I read this, Ill point out that the settlers who brought Christianity to what we now call America werent entirely respectful of the religious traditions of the native peoples. While this may shock those of you who think the history of merry Christmas is all fun and games, entire nations were converted to Christianity at gunpoint and if they tried to maintain their traditions (and their land), so-called Christians massacred them. I enjoy Christmas and all the holidays, and am not suggesting that what happened to the native peoples is happening here in Kearny today. But if you really believe that Christianity, and religion in general, hasnt been forced on people, then you should do some serious remedial reading. The wealth of information available to everyone who visits KOTW is astounding. Too bad most of us dont spend more time researching the facts before expressing our views. Below are a few suggestions. Gregory Nobles, American Frontiers: Cultural Encounters and Continental Conquest (1997). Joseph L. Coulombe, Reading Native American Literature (2011). Dennis Montgomery, 1607: Jamestown and the New World (2007). Mark Stewart, The Indian Removal Act: Forced Relocation (Snapshots in History) (2007). Joel Martin and Martin A. Nicholas, Native Americans, Christianity, and the Reshaping of the American Religious Landscape (2007). Of course, these books are just a start if you want the facts, that is. But hey, why should you listen to these guys? They may not tell you what you want to hear. Edited January 11, 2014 by KOTW Links edited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 That's right, it is just your opinion. And since neither you nor anyone else knows the ultimate nature or shape of reality, none of us has any framework for evaluating the question. It means that no one knows what the ultimate context of reality is. Are there really four dimensions, three of space and one of time, or are there more dimensions? No one knows. Are time and space really linear, as we experience them? Einstein already proved that wasn't true, they are relative. Does time have a beginning and an end? Does space? Or are they infinite? Either way, you run into a wall - a contradiction - if you try to extend your supposition in linear modes of thought that reflect our observation of nature. That is what is meant by "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question." The only conclusion we can draw is that there are things we don't understand. But once you admit that we don't understand them, you can only posit the existence of a creator by contradicting your admission of the ignorance that is part of the human condition. You posit a conscious being predating and creating matter. Every known conscious entity derives its consciousness from a physical, organic brain. Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all, so you posit a conscious entity predating the physical universe. That supposition is based solely on your wish that it be so, and is completely contrary to everything we know about consciousness for the reasons just explained. Wow you are so smart!!! You know such big words! I for one am very impressed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest English major Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 That's right, it is just your opinion. And since neither you nor anyone else knows the ultimate nature or shape of reality, none of us has any framework for evaluating the question. It means that no one knows what the ultimate context of reality is. Are there really four dimensions, three of space and one of time, or are there more dimensions? No one knows. Are time and space really linear, as we experience them? Einstein already proved that wasn't true, they are relative. Does time have a beginning and an end? Does space? Or are they infinite? Either way, you run into a wall - a contradiction - if you try to extend your supposition in linear modes of thought that reflect our observation of nature. That is what is meant by "None of us has any framework for evaluating the question." The only conclusion we can draw is that there are things we don't understand. But once you admit that we don't understand them, you can only posit the existence of a creator by contradicting your admission of the ignorance that is part of the human condition. You posit a conscious being predating and creating matter. Every known conscious entity derives its consciousness from a physical, organic brain. Therefore, your supposition is contrary to everything we know about consciousness. Consciousness does not predate matter but in fact is a product of matter. ALL the evidence we have of consciousness is that consciousness requires a living organic brain. But you want to believe that there's a god taking care of us all, so you posit a conscious entity predating the physical universe. That supposition is based solely on your wish that it be so, and is completely contrary to everything we know about consciousness for the reasons just explained. Gobbledygook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 "Only a maniac would design a universe, and living beings, this way if he was omnipotent." Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kearny Christian Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Yea you have no agenda!!! We will be circulating a petition around Kearny soon, demanding the mayor call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. We will demand the mayor put an end to this foolish holiday tree nonsense which is nothing more than political correctness run amuck. As close as can be determined, Kearny is at least 80% Christian and we demand the return of our Christmas tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 It's not a theory. It's a fact. There are no known conscious entities that have no organic brain. Prove me wrong with a counterexample if you can. You prove me wrong! You can't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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