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Will Kearny have a "Christmas Tree" this year ?


Guest Conservative Christian
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You're such a liar, and a hypocrite. This is all about religion. "Put Christ back into Christmas." "Christ is the reason for the season." All your favorite slogans prove what a liar you are. If you didn't think Christmas was about religion, you wouldn't be whining about the fact that some people call it a holiday tree. "Christmas has nothing to do with religion." Yeah, right.

And the Constitution has everything to do with this issue. The First Amendment, made applicable to the states and all municipalities by the Fourteenth Amendment, mandates equal protection for everyone. That means that no religion, or religious view, can be promoted over others. That is why a governmental entity cannot have just a Christmas display. They have to include everyone.

That is as it should be. You lying ends exactly where your whining begins. Government can celebrate the holidays, so long as it includes everyone. You don't want everyone included. You want Christian dominance. That is why you right wingers keep insisting that the United States was founded as a Christian nation, even though our Constitution is entirely secular, by the Framers' choice, and one of our earliest treaties says explicitly that in no sense is the United States a Christian nation. You don't like that. You don't like the fact that school children aren't forced to recite prayers from a religion they don't believe in any more. You prefer the hypocrisy that we've practiced all too often. But your numbers are dwindling and ours are on

the rise. Don't worry, though. We believe that you should continue to be free to worship as a Christian if you want to, even if your actions call into question whether you really care about the main teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. In other words, you can call yourself a Christian even though what you really are is a hypocrite

Poor boy, you're confused. How can Christmas represent or be a religion when they don't have a church. ? Have you ever seen a Christmas church ? And since there's no such thing

as a Christmas church, then "seperation of church and state" doesn't apply. I hope this isn't too much for you to comprehend.

First off, learn to nest your posts.

To the content, such as it is: You're an idiot. Religion is what they do in church - like celebrate Christmas mass or service, recite the Apostles' creed or "the Lord's prayer". "I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord . . ." Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists and others don't believe that; it's not of their religion. The prayer isn't a religion but it is religious, and distinctively Christian - Catholic, in fact. If a congregation of Muslims prayed for the destruction of the Christian infidels, would you say "don't worry, that's not a religion?"

I hope these distinctions aren't too difficult for you to grasp. Moron.

By the way, I don't mean to be unduly insulting calling you an idiot and a moron. It's just that the words fit.

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I am very angry over Kearny ignoring Christmas. CHRISTMAS is a FEDERAL HOLIDAY !! I am deeply offended that Kearny has

decided to display a nonsensical holiday tree. And I don;t want to hear any crap about being sued, the White House displays a

Christmas Tree every year. I wish the mayor would grow a pair and stand up to the idiots that somehow think it is a religious symbol.

If it isn't a religious symbol, then why are you so upset? New Year's Day is a federal holiday, too - are you upset that the Town of Kearny doesn't put up any symbols for it? You're upset because you want the government to promote the Christian holiday called Christmas. (Gee, why do those words sound so similar?) Who do you think you're kidding?

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I am very angry over Kearny ignoring Christmas. CHRISTMAS is a FEDERAL HOLIDAY !! I am deeply offended that Kearny has

decided to display a nonsensical holiday tree. And I don;t want to hear any crap about being sued, the White House displays a

Christmas Tree every year. I wish the mayor would grow a pair and stand up to the idiots that somehow think it is a religious symbol.

It's the same tree! You're whining about what the mayor calls it.

The White House calls its tree both a Christmas tree and a holiday tree. The evening before its lighting, President Obama and his staff had a Kosher meal to commemorate the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah. Government can commemorate the various religions, as long as it doesn't favor one over or to the exclusion of the others. Kearny can put up a Christmas tree but then it would also have to put up a display for all the other religions, including Humanism and Buddhism. It's not unreasonable for the town to honor all the holidays by putting up a tree and saying it's for everyone.

The Town of Kearny isn't your church. Stop trying to turn it into one.

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Guest Good Grief

Some people say that government should sponsor prayer and other expressions of religion (like if you put up a tree you have to call it a “Christmas tree”) because “the United States was founded as a Christian nation.” It wasn’t, but even if it had been, that wouldn’t mean it was right for government to favor one religion, or one religious view, over another. The Constitution was written and adopted by white men only – no Hispanics, no blacks, no Asians and no women. For a long time, our country legalized the enslavement of an entire race of people, and denied women the right to vote. Our ancestors did it but that doesn’t make it right.

What do people mean when they say “we want our country back”? Unfortunately, some people mean they want us to go back to the days when we said one thing but did another. If we are serious about religious freedom and equality for everyone, then people should stop crying that government isn’t putting up Christmas displays any more. You don’t need government to do that. That’s what churches are for, and your living room, and your front lawn – or your back lawn if you like, or your porch. It's not like we don't have Christmas trees all over the place. Pressuring government to promote your religion just because you’re in the majority is very dangerous for you, because if things keep going as they are now, Christians won’t always be in the majority. Then what? And it’s not right, no matter what the future may hold, or what our country did in the past.

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. . .

Poor boy, you're confused. How can Christmas represent or be a religion when they don't have a church. ? Have you ever seen a Christmas church ? And since there's no such thing

as a Christmas church, then "seperation of church and state" doesn't apply. I hope this isn't too much for you to comprehend.

Poor moron, you can't even post properly.

Obviously, you’ve been listening to the right wing re-make of the First Amendment, so it’s no surprise that you don’t understand it – not that you would anyway. Separation of church and state doesn’t just mean that the government can’t put up a church by city hall. All expressions of religious belief are subject to legal scrutiny. For example, public school children used to be subjected to daily prayers and/or Bible readings. The Supreme Court declared that unconstitutional in School District of Abington Tp. v. Schempp in 1963. You may not like it but it is the law. Most Americans understand and agree that government should stay out of religion. Yet year after year, some people – in this country, usually Christians who have been in the majority and become accustomed to getting favorable treatment – whine and complain that you’re not being treated as though you owned the town, the state or the country any more. You turn back-flips to argue that all the symbols of Christianity aren’t part of the Christian religion, even though plainly they are. But you cannot sell that argument in court, because it’s ridiculous; and you cannot change the well-established law that keeps government’s long nose out of religion. Reasonable people won’t let you do that.

The Town of Kearny and all governmental units in the USA, including the White House, are required to abide by the law. Stop whining about it. If you want to celebrate Christmas, go to church or do it in your home. You don’t need the government to promote your religion, and if you had any sense you wouldn’t want it to – because if you succeed in getting government into religion . . . do I really have to tell you, who hates government so much, what is likely to happen? If you had any sense at all, you would stop trying to use the government to advance your religion.

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Guest 2smart4u

A philosopher? You telling me Christianity is a cult that worships a philosopher? He's not the Redeemer, Savior, Son of God, etc!?

I've also never seen a "Christianity" church, have you?

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The holiday is called Christmas it is a federal holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus! This is fact not up for debate! On December 25th we celebrate the birth of an amazing individual who has had a great impact on society for the last 2000 plus years! Like it or not again this is fact! I do not begrudge any other religion or lack there of their right to believe what they believe! A large portion of this world celebrates the birthday of what we believe to be one of the great figures in history and we call it Christmas and one of our enduring symbols is the Christmas Tree! We celebrate Martin Luther Kings birthday should we change the name of that federal holiday to civil rights day? No of course not because the day is a celebration of the man and the tremendous impact he has had on countless individuals and who made this country a far better place! What is different about the celebration of Christs life and the symbols that represent that day? If we cannot celebrate the birth of Christ in public places because he is affiliated with a religion then how can we celebrate A Christian minister Dr. Kings birthday? We do it because we recognize the man and what he has meant to this world! Yes I was talking about both men!!! Where is the difference?

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I've also never seen a "Christianity" church, have you?

You are the very definition of "idiot." Do you really think that adding a suffix to "Christian" changes the affiliation?

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"I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord . . ." Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists and others don't believe that; it's not of their religion. The prayer isn't a religion but it is religious, and distinctively Christian - Catholic, in fact.

In fact, the Protestant denominations do not accept or recite the Apostles' creed because it includes a statement about the "one holy, catholic and apostolic church." The Creed is religious and so is the Protestants' refusal to recite it.

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Guest 2smart4u

The holiday is called Christmas it is a federal holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus! This is fact not up for debate! On December 25th we celebrate the birth of an amazing individual who has had a great impact on society for the last 2000 plus years! Like it or not again this is fact! I do not begrudge any other religion or lack there of their right to believe what they believe! A large portion of this world celebrates the birthday of what we believe to be one of the great figures in history and we call it Christmas and one of our enduring symbols is the Christmas Tree! We celebrate Martin Luther Kings birthday should we change the name of that federal holiday to civil rights day? No of course not because the day is a celebration of the man and the tremendous impact he has had on countless individuals and who made this country a far better place! What is different about the celebration of Christs life and the symbols that represent that day? If we cannot celebrate the birth of Christ in public places because he is affiliated with a religion then how can we celebrate A Christian minister Dr. Kings birthday? We do it because we recognize the man and what he has meant to this world! Yes I was talking about both men!!! Where is the difference?

There is no difference. You make an excellent point with the comparison of MLK. You should send this to the loony mayor who thinks he's being progressive with his ridicious holiday tree.

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Guest 2smart4u

Judaism has never been the dominant religion in the USA or in Kearny. That's why no one raises a fuss about the Menorah. The dominant religion is the one most likely to be abusive toward those who do not subscribe to it.

However, you make an excellent point. If the town is displaying a Menorah and other symbols representing various religious points of view, then there's no reason why it can't call the tree a Christmas tree. But then if towns are going to do that, can they properly display just a tree, if virtually by definition it's a Christmas tree? These distinctions begin to sound silly when anyone tries to draw a clear line - because there isn't a clear line to draw - but they're not silly. What also isn't silly is protection of people whose religious views are not those of the majority; it's very important if we truly value liberty and justice for all. What is silly is the Christian majority whining that its accustomed dominant position isn't catered to any more; that's dangerously myopic hypocrisy. And here we are, arguing about it again because someone who calls him/herself "Kearny Christian" thinks the government should promote the Christian religion. It can't be that way if we truly value our country's most basic and most cherished ideals. Equal treatment for everyone is what matters.

The white house displays a "Christmas Tree" and millions of people of all religions admire it. But the mayor of Kearny feels it will offend someone ??? Really ?

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Guest 2swmart4u

Some people say that government should sponsor prayer and other expressions of religion (like if you put up a tree you have to call it a “Christmas tree”) because “the United States was founded as a Christian nation.” It wasn’t, but even if it had been, that wouldn’t mean it was right for government to favor one religion, or one religious view, over another. The Constitution was written and adopted by white men only – no Hispanics, no blacks, no Asians and no women. For a long time, our country legalized the enslavement of an entire race of people, and denied women the right to vote. Our ancestors did it but that doesn’t make it right.

What do people mean when they say “we want our country back”? Unfortunately, some people mean they want us to go back to the days when we said one thing but did another. If we are serious about religious freedom and equality for everyone, then people should stop crying that government isn’t putting up Christmas displays any more. You don’t need government to do that. That’s what churches are for, and your living room, and your front lawn – or your back lawn if you like, or your porch. It's not like we don't have Christmas trees all over the place. Pressuring government to promote your religion just because you’re in the majority is very dangerous for you, because if things keep going as they are now, Christians won’t always be in the majority. Then what? And it’s not right, no matter what the future may hold, or what our country did in the past.

You write like you're in the 8th grade. Let me guess, you are in the 8th grade !

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The holiday is called Christmas it is a federal holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus! This is fact not up for debate! On December 25th we celebrate the birth of an amazing individual who has had a great impact on society for the last 2000 plus years! Like it or not again this is fact! I do not begrudge any other religion or lack there of their right to believe what they believe! A large portion of this world celebrates the birthday of what we believe to be one of the great figures in history and we call it Christmas and one of our enduring symbols is the Christmas Tree! We celebrate Martin Luther Kings birthday should we change the name of that federal holiday to civil rights day? No of course not because the day is a celebration of the man and the tremendous impact he has had on countless individuals and who made this country a far better place! What is different about the celebration of Christs life and the symbols that represent that day? If we cannot celebrate the birth of Christ in public places because he is affiliated with a religion then how can we celebrate A Christian minister Dr. Kings birthday? We do it because we recognize the man and what he has meant to this world! Yes I was talking about both men!!! Where is the difference?

The difference is at least twofold. Most of the world and much of the United States rejects Christianity as its religion. "None" is the fastest growing religious affiliation in the United States. There are wonderful things in Christianity but there are many horrid things, too. At best, the narratives about Jesus are myths; at worst, they are plainly and obviously false. People do not rise from the dead. A perfect god would have no need to send a savior to keep people from entering a hell he created. And if there was a god who sent his only son to die so that we could all be saved (from the hell he created) by believing in him, the entire world would have heard of him then, not millennia later. The fact that native peoples all over the world had never heard the story when European missionaries first encountered them is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the main events of the Jesus story never happened. If you look at it carefully and objectively, the story is silly. It never happened.

By contrast, we have an indisputable record of the life and works of Dr. King. We have video recordings, in stark contrast to the sparse writing about Jesus, which do not begin to appear until decades after he supposedly died. King wasn't perfect and he didn't claim to be God. So his day isn't a religious celebration. That's one difference. It's the celebration of a national hero whom whose life and works are not subject to question. We know they are real. That's another difference.

You're free to believe the Christian narrative. But don't try to force it on those of us who see it for what it is, when we all know how divisive religion can be. That's another thing that isn't open to doubt: the disastrous effects when government tries to force religion on people.

No doubt someone will be shocked at what I've written about the Christian narrative. Don't blame me. It's your story. All I did was tell the truth. And the reaction you're likely to see is another reason why theistic religion does not belong in government.

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The holiday is called Christmas it is a federal holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus! This is fact not up for debate! On December 25th we celebrate the birth of an amazing individual who has had a great impact on society for the last 2000 plus years! Like it or not again this is fact! I do not begrudge any other religion or lack there of their right to believe what they believe! A large portion of this world celebrates the birthday of what we believe to be one of the great figures in history and we call it Christmas and one of our enduring symbols is the Christmas Tree! We celebrate Martin Luther Kings birthday should we change the name of that federal holiday to civil rights day? No of course not because the day is a celebration of the man and the tremendous impact he has had on countless individuals and who made this country a far better place! What is different about the celebration of Christs life and the symbols that represent that day? If we cannot celebrate the birth of Christ in public places because he is affiliated with a religion then how can we celebrate A Christian minister Dr. Kings birthday? We do it because we recognize the man and what he has meant to this world! Yes I was talking about both men!!! Where is the difference?

Differences between Dr. Martin Luther King and Jesus of Nazareth . . . hmmmm . . . let's see.

1. King was a real person. We have contemporaneous accounts of his life, including video footage. We have nothing about Jesus for decades after he supposedly died.

2. People don't worship King. He isn't the central object of a religion.

Just because you call it a Christmas tree and celebrate Christmas doesn't mean that anyone else must.

Everyone has a religious affiliation, even atheists, whose religious affiliation is with other atheists, or "none." Just because a great historic figure had religious beliefs doesn't mean that we can't celebrate his life.

Just because people made a holiday doesn't mean that the thing they celebrate is real. The White House sponsors Easter egg hunts, too. Does that mean that the Easter bunny is real?

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Post 32 is a lesson in illogic.

Declaring a holiday doesn't make the object of the holiday real.

What has made a difference over the past 2000 years, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill, is what people think about Jesus and the lessons they draw from his life. This is equally true whether he ever lived or not, and whether the stories about him are true or not.

You can celebrate your religion and its symbols anywhere and anytime you like but you can't force other people to celebrate with you, especially when they don't share your beliefs. You can call it a Christmas tree while others call it a holiday tree. For them, that's what it is. What is the problem?

Martin Luther King's status as a minister has nothing to do with why we celebrate him. People aren't excluded from being honored because of their religion.

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Guest 2smart4u

The Kearny town hall must be a very jolly place at Christmas. No one allowed to say "Merry Christmas", only happy holidays allowed.

If you give someone a card, make sure it says "happy holidays", no "Merry Christmas" cards permitted. And nobody smile ! It's

not appropriate for a Grinch to smile.

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All the arguing, which goes on every year on this subject, is really about one thing. Some people who call themselves Christian but don't much act like it want everyone else to be forced to celebrate their holiday. By federal law, Christmas day is a national holiday. But so what? Just because we have that law doesn't mean it's right. Practically no one minds a day off, and making December 25th a day off makes sense because most people take it off anyway. But religion isn't up for a majority vote, so there's no perfect solution. It's a compromise, not an endorsement of the Christian religion over the other religions, which would be unconstitutional.

Our country has come a long way since the 1800s when Christmas was made a national holiday. In those days, slavery had just been ended but African-Americans still were treated - poorly would be too mild a word. Women didn't yet have the right to vote. Prejudices were easier to maintain because people didn't come into contact with people from other cultures much. But now we see people from every culture and every religious persuasion, on TV if nothing else, so we see our own prejudices more clearly. Calling it a holiday tree is just a way of respecting everyone.

So it comes down to this. The people who get their panties in a twist about "happy holidays" and a "holiday tree" expect everyone else to worship their idea of God. So they try to force a certain way of speaking and even thinking about a freaking tree, for crying out loud, on everyone. That's not respectful and it's not right. It would be nice if they would stop it, because the more they try to force their religion on the people who do not agree with them, the harder those people will fight back. And as long as the so-called Christians who don't really act like it are the ones making it an issue, they are the ones who are to blame for the division they are causing at a time when we should all be celebrating together, each of us in our own way. Because that's the only way it can really be a celebration. The holier-than-thous should think about that.

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The white house displays a "Christmas Tree" and millions of people of all religions admire it. But the mayor of Kearny feels it will offend someone ??? Really ?

So you're taking back all the rotten stuff you said about President Obama, since it isn't true? The White House is trying to make everyone happy, which is what should happen with displays like this. They call it both a holiday tree and a Christmas tree, and they also celebrate other religious traditions. As we've been trying to tell you, it's OK as long as no religion is being placed above the others. If Kearny has displays from other religions, too, there wouldn't be anything wrong calling it a Christmas tree. But there's nothing wrong with calling it a holiday tree either. The mayor is also trying to make everyone happy, by including everyone. You and your fellow nutcakes keep acting like that's some sort of crime.

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The Kearny town hall must be a very jolly place at Christmas. No one allowed to say "Merry Christmas", only happy holidays allowed.

If you give someone a card, make sure it says "happy holidays", no "Merry Christmas" cards permitted. And nobody smile ! It's

not appropriate for a Grinch to smile.

Oh come on, that's not close to the truth. As usual, you're non-objective to the point of lying.

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All the arguing, which goes on every year on this subject, is really about one thing. Some people who call themselves Christian but don't much act like it want everyone else to be forced to celebrate their holiday. By federal law, Christmas day is a national holiday. But so what? Just because we have that law doesn't mean it's right. Practically no one minds a day off, and making December 25th a day off makes sense because most people take it off anyway. But religion isn't up for a majority vote, so there's no perfect solution. It's a compromise, not an endorsement of the Christian religion over the other religions, which would be unconstitutional.

Our country has come a long way since the 1800s when Christmas was made a national holiday. In those days, slavery had just been ended but African-Americans still were treated - poorly would be too mild a word. Women didn't yet have the right to vote. Prejudices were easier to maintain because people didn't come into contact with people from other cultures much. But now we see people from every culture and every religious persuasion, on TV if nothing else, so we see our own prejudices more clearly. Calling it a holiday tree is just a way of respecting everyone.

So it comes down to this. The people who get their panties in a twist about "happy holidays" and a "holiday tree" expect everyone else to worship their idea of God. So they try to force a certain way of speaking and even thinking about a freaking tree, for crying out loud, on everyone. That's not respectful and it's not right. It would be nice if they would stop it, because the more they try to force their religion on the people who do not agree with them, the harder those people will fight back. And as long as the so-called Christians who don't really act like it are the ones making it an issue, they are the ones who are to blame for the division they are causing at a time when we should all be celebrating together, each of us in our own way. Because that's the only way it can really be a celebration. The holier-than-thous should think about that.

They should but they won't.

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Guest Conservative Christian

All the arguing, which goes on every year on this subject, is really about one thing. Some people who call themselves Christian but don't much act like it want everyone else to be forced to celebrate their holiday. By federal law, Christmas day is a national holiday. But so what? Just because we have that law doesn't mean it's right. Practically no one minds a day off, and making December 25th a day off makes sense because most people take it off anyway. But religion isn't up for a majority vote, so there's no perfect solution. It's a compromise, not an endorsement of the Christian religion over the other religions, which would be unconstitutional.

Our country has come a long way since the 1800s when Christmas was made a national holiday. In those days, slavery had just been ended but African-Americans still were treated - poorly would be too mild a word. Women didn't yet have the right to vote. Prejudices were easier to maintain because people didn't come into contact with people from other cultures much. But now we see people from every culture and every religious persuasion, on TV if nothing else, so we see our own prejudices more clearly. Calling it a holiday tree is just a way of respecting everyone.

So it comes down to this. The people who get their panties in a twist about "happy holidays" and a "holiday tree" expect everyone else to worship their idea of God. So they try to force a certain way of speaking and even thinking about a freaking tree, for crying out loud, on everyone. That's not respectful and it's not right. It would be nice if they would stop it, because the more they try to force their religion on the people who do not agree with them, the harder those people will fight back. And as long as the so-called Christians who don't really act like it are the ones making it an issue, they are the ones who are to blame for the division they are causing at a time when we should all be celebrating together, each of us in our own way. Because that's the only way it can really be a celebration. The holier-than-thous should think about that.

Ho-Hum zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Guest 2Smart4U

Post 32 is a lesson in illogic.

Declaring a holiday doesn't make the object of the holiday real.

What has made a difference over the past 2000 years, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill, is what people think about Jesus and the lessons they draw from his life. This is equally true whether he ever lived or not, and whether the stories about him are true or not.

You can celebrate your religion and its symbols anywhere and anytime you like but you can't force other people to celebrate with you, especially when they don't share your beliefs. You can call it a Christmas tree while others call it a holiday tree. For them, that's what it is. What is the problem?

Martin Luther King's status as a minister has nothing to do with why we celebrate him. People aren't excluded from being honored because of their religion.

Alright, already! I was way off base with my comments and flawed logic. My apologies - I understand all of the various points of view expressed here.

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Guest Merry Christmas

Some posters say Christians are forcing them to celebrate Christmas! This is just not true. If you choose, Dec. 25th could just be another day ignore it! I am not Jewish so while I respect their high holy days I do not wish to hijack them and twist their holiday into something more aligned with my belief system! I respect all other religions thats why i have no problem with the Menorah being displayed at the Town Hall, and I acknowledge the right of people not to believe! Why can't you who wish to distort the Holiday of Christmas do the same!!!

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"Conservative Christian" writes "Ho Hum zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"

That about sums it up. They don't want to think. They just want everyone to agree with them. They won't listen to reason. They have nothing intelligent to say, so they make inane and illogical remarks. They don't care what other people think or value, or even worship, but if you don't agree with them, they whine.

In fact, that about sums up this entire "discussion" and this non-issue.

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The Kearny town hall must be a very jolly place at Christmas. No one allowed to say "Merry Christmas", only happy holidays allowed.

If you give someone a card, make sure it says "happy holidays", no "Merry Christmas" cards permitted. And nobody smile ! It's

not appropriate for a Grinch to smile.

Idiots don't think it's appropriate to think straight.

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