Just Wondering

[Guest Guest]

It may make you feel uncomfortable, however, I bet you don't mind when you need to buy something and that's the money you have to use, do you? Well, you can argue, you can say whatever you want. The fact is that "In God We Trust" is there, whether you like it or not! Also, "One Nation under GOD" is also there. Sorry people, you can feel uncomfortable, but there is not much you can do it about it...deal with it! ONE NATION UNDER GOD and IN GOD WE TRUST!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So is THE FIRST AMENDMENT. It's there whether you like it or not. The teacher broke the law and needs to be fired. Deal with it!

[Guest Guest]

You know that those are quite recent additions to currency, added in something like 1957.  I personally think their addition was a mistake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In God We Trust was on silver dollars at least as early as 1878.

[Guest Guest]

I've always wondered...... when an athiest touches a coin inscripted with "In God We Trust", does his fingers burn ??   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. They just giggle at 2005 nickels that depict a bison penis on the flip side.

No doubt some are relieved it is not Liberty's exposed female breast.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

Sorry, My post above is almost identical to yours! Great minds must work alike!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed...theirs do, too, but I blame FOX for that. Such stupidity must be contagious

But indeed, it's the best way...for some reason, when religious people use all these fallacies against atheists, they never realized they can be used to argue for ANYTHING.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

What if Islam is right? What the Pastafarians are right? What if the Matrix is right? What if Star Wars is actual history?

Christianity is exactly as likely as all the above, unless you happen to posess some evidence no one else ever heard of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if you are wrong. Take a chance, not me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...

the whole point of the above was to demonstrate that 'what if' does not work properly. You need to show that it is actually likely to happen in the first place. As long as Christianity cannot show itself to be more believable than Star Wars (which also has a far cooler plot), I am disinclined to believe in it.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

In God We Trust was on silver dollars at least as early as 1878.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct. I think the Civil war showed the first examples of it, in an attempt to boost national morale.

It was, however, only shown on paper money when the National Motto was changed.

[Guest Guest]

Damn right! May Muhammad be your savior! Why follow Jesus when he was just a lesser prophet compared to the greatest prophet of all Muhammad?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice try at an instigation, but true Muslims (not the fundamentalist freaks) revere Jesus as an individual, and would be far too humble than to post in such a manner. Then again, you could be a fundamentalist freak (responding in kind to a Christian fundamentalist freak).

[Guest Guest]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they). But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse).

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history). So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another?

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week). I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess. That's what keeps me tolerant. And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : ) ).

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization. I am saying that I believe. And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven. I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion? Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

[Guest Guest]

What if Zeus never disguised himself and walked among us? Think about it!

What if Muhammad never experienced the Isra and Mi'raj? Think about it!

What if the halls of Valhalla never echoed with the songs of heroes? Think about it!

What if the Pope is not the vicar of Christ? Think about it!

What if Vishnu doesn't possess six divine glories? Think about it!

What if Ganja is not a sacrament that stings the heart of the wicked? Think about it!

Yeah, and what if the flying spaghetti monster isn't real? Think about it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Paszkiewicz's Christianity is right, sentient beings will suffer in eternal torment. This is said to be a loving god's concept of justice. Think about it.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they).  But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse).

While it is true that atheists, including me, have been insensitive several times, please do not think it without reason. The U.S. has an exceedingly negative attitude towards atheists and atheism. To give you an example:

"I do not believe atheists should be considered patriots or even citizens. This is one nation under God."

A person can say that...and get elected into the presidency. That was George H.W. Bush. And, while it is the fundamentalists who are its perpetrators, it is often the regular, run-of-the-mill Christians who act as their enablers. Often, it is exactly these moderates that decide 'ah, what harm can organized prayer do?', or 'why not teach the controversy?'. In every conflict, regular Christians invariably side with the fundamentalist mob.

Another thing to consider. Atheists might often sound like an intolerant lot, but ask yourself: what do you believe in? Christians, by and large, seem to believe that nonchristians are apparently not just wrong in their beliefs (or lack thereof), but wrong enough to suffer forever. Does it really get more intolerant than that? We may criticise a belief...but we do not take it so far to believe one should be tortured forever.

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history).  So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another?

Yes, we can if you agree to keep your Bible and Commandments where they belong...in your church and, if you want, in your heart. But not in the public's court or the public's schools. It is the fundamentalists who will never be able to do the same or accept that.

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week).  I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess.  That's what keeps me tolerant.  And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : )  ). 

The principles you picked are good ones, and if Jesus exists/once existed...who knows? He might be/have been proud

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization.  I am saying that I believe.  And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven.  I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

As is your right. I may not agree with you, but I acknowledge your right to believe whatever you want to.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Yes, I can believe that you can come to an alternate conclusion. I simply happen to believe you are wrong, but as long as you don't bother others with it, there's little harm in it.

Many a Christian has lead a life of excellence, both moral and intellectual...nothing is stopping you from doing the same (though ironically, the greater the person, the less stringent their faith). In the meanwhile, keep your heart open for any evidence.

Any serious replies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope this satisfies it.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

Nice try at an instigation, but true Muslims (not the fundamentalist freaks) revere Jesus as an individual, and would be far too humble than to post in such a manner.  Then again, you could be a fundamentalist freak (responding in kind to a Christian fundamentalist freak).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh...I think the sarcasm was pretty obvious there...

[Guest Guest]

What if Islam is right? What the Pastafarians are right? What if the Matrix is right? What if Star Wars is actual history?

Christianity is exactly as likely as all the above, unless you happen to posess some evidence no one else ever heard of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if you are wrong. Take a chance, not me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And what if YOU are wrong? Why don't YOU take a chance?

[oldfart56]

If Paszkiewicz's Christianity is right, sentient beings will suffer in eternal torment. This is said to be a loving god's concept of justice. Think about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHAT IF?OR WHY NOT! DID YOU EVER SEE GODS FACE? DID YOU EVER FEEL HIM?DID YOU HEAR HIS VOICE? WELL YOU DID!" AND SO DID I" BUT YOU REJECT HIM NOT "I" ! NOT I!! DID YOU EVER READ THE BIBLE? DO YOU THINK AFTER 2000 YEARS FOLK CAN STILL BE FOOLED? ARE YOU THE ONLY SMART PERSON IN THE WORLD?PLEASE DO NOT FOOL YOUR SELF!MANY FAR SMARTER THAN YOU "KNOW HIM" THE HOLY SPRIT IS REAL! OUR ICONS OF TIME AND POWER KNEW IT AND "HIM"! YOU WILL NOT REWRITE HISTORY NOR COULD ANY WHO TRIED! READ LEARN AND LIVE! BUT MOCK THIS POST IF YOU WILL AND SEE HOW LITTEL THINGS CHANGE! BUT PRAY AND SEE WHAT WILL!!! THE REASON FOR THE SEASON +JESUS CHRIST+ MARRY CHRIST MASS

[Guest Guest]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they).  But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse). 

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history).  So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another? 

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week).  I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess.  That's what keeps me tolerant.  And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : )  ). 

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization.  I am saying that I believe.  And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven.  I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I admire your tolerance and I think you are close to making a breakthrough. The logical progression of the acceptance of other religions is the realization that all religious thought are simply metaphors for sense of awe and mystery that we all share. Metaphors are not vessels of truth. By their very definition they can't be truths. They are man-made constructions that give form to things that have none. The same as art or even symbols of love and commitment.

To argue that you are one metaphor believer or another is silly. It's like saying "music is the the only art. Poetry is false" It's like saying "a diamond means I love you but a an old cigar band means nothing"

Throw off the mantle of seeing the world through a single, confining metaphor and the sense of wonder and awe grows exponentially.

[Guest Patriot]

And just where on that coin is it specified just WHAT God is being referred to?

Your arrogance is truly amazing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is only one God, think Christmas.

[Guest Guest]

Correct. I think the Civil war showed the first examples of it, in an attempt to boost national morale.

It was, however, only shown on paper money when the National Motto was changed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is there actually an official nationl motto? If so I believe it's "E Pluribus Unum".

[Guest Guest]

It may make you feel uncomfortable, however, I bet you don't mind when you need to buy something and that's the money you have to use, do you? Well, you can argue, you can say whatever you want. The fact is that "In God We Trust" is there, whether you like it or not! Also, "One Nation under GOD" is also there. Sorry people, you can feel uncomfortable, but there is not much you can do it about it...deal with it! ONE NATION UNDER GOD and IN GOD WE TRUST!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may make YOU feel uncomfortable but there have been thousands of names for and concepts of God throughout history and NOWHERE is it specified just what God those mottos refer to..........................and rightly so.

[Guest Paul]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they).  But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse). 

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history).  So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another? 

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week).  I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess.  That's what keeps me tolerant.  And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : )  ). 

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization.  I am saying that I believe.  And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven.  I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Without in any way categorizing my own religious beliefs, you're being entirely categorical in your treatment of a group of people. Just as Christians are not all the same, neither are atheists.

[Guest Not a Christian.]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they).  But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse). 

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history).  So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another? 

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week).  I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess.  That's what keeps me tolerant.  And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : )  ). 

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization.  I am saying that I believe.  And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven.  I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a non-Christian, and not an Atheist either, I THANK YOU for the most intelligent post I've read about this in a LONG time.

Yes, there are many intelligent, humble, creative people who "for all the right reasons" have decided to accept the Christian story as the true one.

This is good. It shows me that they have the ability to weigh evidence and make a choice.

Just like Mr. Ellison in Minnesota weighed the evidence as an adult and chose to follow Islam as his personal moral compass.

I have no trouble with people who choose to follow Christianity as their moral compass. What irks me is when those people, mostly Christians since I live in the USA, start telling me how superior their faith is to my own, how I and others who do not subscribe to their faith are doomed, etc.

Yes, living in a Christian dominated culture is quite annoying at times, especially when self-annointed leaders such as Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Mark Foley, James Dobson, et al, spew such righteousness out of one side of their mouths, and such hatred out of the other side. When children are taught to bow down and worship a carboard cutout of President Bush at Jesus Camp, I begin to worry about child abuse and brainwashing.

Where are the other Christians like yourself, who know the meaning behind the scriptures rather than trying to interpret them literally? Why aren't more Christians like yourself standing up and taking back your faith from the radicals?

Why are the radicals on the fringes of the spiritual divide (Christian and Muslim and Atheist) causing so much grief all over the world?

The "I'm right so you must be wrong" mentality is the cause for all this grief. Why can't I be right and you be right also?

Again, thanks for the most intelligent post on believing in Christianity I've seen in a long time.

[Calybos]

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YOU can believe whatever you like; all we ask is that the government remain neutral on the matter, as required by the Constitution. And which, apparently, a lot of zealots have a problem with when it comes to public schools and public buildings. Then they resort to the whine that "Anything less than full federal endorsement of my faith is discrimination, and it violates My Rights."

That's both stupid and hypocritical; unsurprisingly, a lot of us find that annoying.

[Strife767]

Wow - that question sure got all of you Atheists to post!

I'm a Christian, but I find it hard to associate myself with the fundamentalists that insist that if you do not believe in Jesus, you go to Hell (those poor aboriginal cultures in the losts rainforests never had a chance, did they).  But I also find Atheists to be equally insensitive to my personal beliefs as well (referring to them as superstitions or worse).

As an atheist, I feel compelled to defend this. Listen, it's nothing personal, but if you are going to believe in a "god," then you had better be prepared to hear that belief called a superstition, because that is what it is. To call it a superstition is not a personal attack--I know it might seem that way because of your emotional attachment to your beliefs, but it isn't--look at it objectively. Believing that one will go to "hell" or "heaven" when they die depending on certain actions taken in life, is exactly as (no more, no less) superstitious as believing that walking under a ladder will bring bad luck. Neither of those has any real proof behind them, and both are believed by people on a 'faith basis'--that is, treating it as fact in the absence of that evidence.

Some of the previous posts have acknowledged that there is a chance that Christianity is the truth (albeit running neck and neck with the possiblity that Star Wars represents mankind's history).  So if it is possibly true and possibly false, can't we just agree that I believe in one possibility and you believe in another?

Of course--the vast majority of atheists, myself included, have no problem at all with that. The thing is, it really tends to get on an atheist's nerves when a Christian/Muslim/whatever starts to take it beyond that--to start telling others that their way is the way, etc. At that point, that person deserves to be reminded just exactly what they've put all their faith in--call it putting a zealot in his/her place.

I can understand your sensitivity in living in a Christianity dominated culture (believe me, the posts by some defending Christianity almost had me lighting candles last week).  I am also cognizant that had I been born somewhere else, to some other parents, I may not have the beliefs that I possess.  That's what keeps me tolerant.  And, at the end of the day, I am comfortable that even if I am wrong, my decision to live my life in accordance with the principles of Jesus that I have drawn from the Bible (love, consideration, tolerance, integrity, etc.) is by no means the worst way to spend my days (not that I'm very good at it, but I'll save those issues for my therapist : )  ).

Sure, perfectly fine and commendable. While I disagree that following the teachings of an old book is the only road to those same virtues, I'm glad you aspire to them in any case. That's what ultimately matters when it comes to people interacting with each other.

And to those who would say otherwise, I am not using the "if I'm wrong, what do I lose" rationalization.

Good. Pascal's Wager is a load of baloney, as you probably realize. *chuckles*

I am saying that I believe.  And my reason for believing is not because I'm looking to book a suite in Club Heaven.  I believe because I look around me and everything I see gives me reason to believe that there is someone greater than mankind in the Universe.

That's fine.

So, while you guys are burning off your fingers paying for sandwiches at the local deli, and your kids ears' are melting while the pledge is delivered daily in school (sarcasm), I respectfully ask whether Atheists can handle that an educated, reasonable individual might have likewise examined all of the evidence, read the same anti-theist literature, and come to an alternate conclusion?  Or am I doomed to a life of dim-witted delusion because I believe in God?

Any serious replies?

While I cannot understand how one can reach a conclusion with no real evidence, it is your life. You may live it as you wish. The only time I will be 'intolerant' of a religion is when a member of one starts proselytizing and/or mistreating fellow human beings because of it. I think I'm fully justified in that sort of a response to bigotry--disagree if you like.

Is that genuine enough for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Strife767]

If Paszkiewicz's Christianity is right, sentient beings will suffer in eternal torment. This is said to be a loving god's concept of justice. Think about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

www.evilbible.com said it well within its "God is Impossible" section:

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

I have to say--if one believes in a just (and onmipotent) god, one cannot believe in the concept of hell.

[Guest Guest]

There is only one God, think Christmas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes indeed. Allah is great!

[Strife767]

There is only one God, think Christmas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Couldn't have said it any better than the poster who this guy is replying to:

Your arrogance is truly amazing.

[Guest A. V. Blom]

There is only one God, think Christmas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And to think you have the gall to accuse anyone of being close-minded.