How dictatorships are created

[Guest Charlie Brown]

Pretty damned ironic, your lecturing me to "live and let live." The entire genesis of this discussion is the fact that quite a few people can't seem to live with the fact that Matthew and I are not going to stand for the pledge unless and until some attitudes change. You live and let live, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions.

No, I will not stop. There is more reason for concern than you think in my opinion. We may have turned the corner with Obama's election, but under Bush our liberties were significantly restricted. The executive branch took on increased powers and was allowed to spy on us without any meaningful check from either of the other branches of government. The right to habeas corpus was dimininished. Bush and Cheney argued for and were advancing a "unitary executive" theory, which is just a fancy phrase for one man controlling everything. Not a step toward dictatorship, you say? Then what would you call it? And now you want me to be quiet. Uh-huh.

Furthermore, if you follow these threads carefully you will see that I am not the one to initiate these discussions. I opened this topic, but only in response to an especially vicious post from so-called "Patriot," who cannot seem to abide any dissent.

Just because you like saying the pledge doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Chocolate cake feels good too, but if you eat too much of it too often, you have a problem. I was six years old when JFK was elected. At that time Americans used to think beyond their own personal comfort when they thought about politics. I hope we'll get back to that. Meanwhile, the pledge is a product of our laws. It's not like a group of folks just decide to get together and have a picnic.

It's easy for you to say "live and let live." You are in the majority, you are safe. I stick my neck out a little every time I post here. You don't even have the guts to post your real name, so don't even think about complaining about what I should post and not post. I will continue to post here as long as KOTW's administrators allow me to do it. It's not your call to make.

Struck a nerve, did I?

[Guest Paul]

Struck a nerve, did I?

Yes you did. Ignorance strikes a very raw nerve with me.

[Guest Lincoln Logger]

Actually, the reason for opening a new topic was to have a discussion on how dictatorships arise. That’s a new subject so I opened a new topic.

But as usual, you assume that you know more about my motives than I do. And of course, we’re not going to discuss the topic. You’re just going to take another opportunity to insult me, anonymously of course.

As for Matthew, I did my job rather well, but the credit really is his. He is talented. That kind of courage and perceptiveness cannot be trained. But thanks for the unintended compliment.

Meanwhile, we have a new president about to take office, but are stuck with two more months under the lamest of lame duck presidents and a lame duck Congress. We are entering the most difficult economic period since the Great Depression, have two wars going on, and have an urgent need to retool and restructure our entire economy. Every citizen will be affected. Surely you have better things to do than insult me.

You’re not going to get me to stop. I got used to this crap when you tried to shut me up two years ago. “Autonomous” is absolutely right about the anthropological lessons here; you have no idea that you’re behaving just like monkeys.

What works with most people doesn’t work with Matthew and me. That’s why we do it the way we do it. Attack me, and I’ll just post twice as often. You boneheads never learn, do you?

It still amazes me to this day that you use the word "train" as how you parent your children. For someone so eloquent in your words I am sure it is not by accident. However the flatuance of your post and you and the boy still amuses me as a reader of someone of KOTW. I know how much you like to hear himself. And that post a few days ago about you stopping the entire name calling, I guess "bonehead" does not count. I hope to hear two posts from you: one as you and probably another from you as Bern. I don't mind. I knew what you meant buy post twice as much anyway and so do a lot of people here.

[Guest Guest]

It still amazes me to this day that you use the word "train" as how you parent your children. For someone so eloquent in your words I am sure it is not by accident. However the flatuance of your post and you and the boy still amuses me as a reader of someone of KOTW. I know how much you like to hear himself. And that post a few days ago about you stopping the entire name calling, I guess "bonehead" does not count. I hope to hear two posts from you: one as you and probably another from you as Bern. I don't mind. I knew what you meant buy post twice as much anyway and so do a lot of people here.

As always, you have absolutely nothing to say. You just attack everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Guest Guest]

It still amazes me to this day that you use the word "train" as how you parent your children.

It amazes me that you think there’s something wrong with it.

If you Google “moral training,” you’ll get 197,000 hits. Here are the first few:

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles24/schoo...agement-5.shtml

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1013486

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=psc.005.0310a

http://books.google.com/books?id=65pJAAAAI...4&ct=result

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w66004p5v735r235/

http://connection.ebscohost.com/content/ar...EEC79B35.ehctc1

http://www.archive.org/details/educationforchar00sharuoft

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...96E9C946697D6CF

Time after time after time, you troglodytes show your ignorance trying to bring Paul down. Your time would be more productively spent in other ways.

[Guest Lincoln Logger]

It amazes me that you think there’s something wrong with it.

If you Google “moral training,” you’ll get 197,000 hits. Here are the first few:

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles24/schoo...agement-5.shtml

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1013486

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=psc.005.0310a

http://books.google.com/books?id=65pJAAAAI...4&ct=result

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w66004p5v735r235/

http://connection.ebscohost.com/content/ar...EEC79B35.ehctc1

http://www.archive.org/details/educationforchar00sharuoft

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...96E9C946697D6CF

Time after time after time, you troglodytes show your ignorance trying to bring Paul down. Your time would be more productively spent in other ways.

Someone needs to send out a "WAAAAaaa" gram to all those on kearny on the web. I so very happy he knows how to google. Wonderful waste of time he must have. Speaking of time spent productively. Another one of the name callings that his highness Paul holds dominion over. It was Paul that invited the comment. He said he would post back and I guess Paul just did.

[Guest Lincoln Logger]

That’s not how democracy works. At the old town hall meetings, everyone who stood up to speak was known to the community. In fact, the right to speak arose directly from being a member of the community. Everyone who participated put her name behind everything she said.

Most newspapers won’t publish your letter unless you sign your name. That’s a way of keeping letters responsible and to the point. People are less likely to say ridiculous things if they have to put their name to it. It doesn’t say much for the participants here that almost no one’s identity is known. Even the right to vote is premised on being identified as an eligible member of the community.

You have no credibility here. Nothing you write is worth anything, except strictly for its substantive content. Your claims of fact are meaningless because you refuse to identify yourself. The name-calling and invective could be coming from a lunatic or a psychotic. For all I know, you could be a radical Islamic terrorist posting here to undermine our democratic system. Do I think that? No, but I do stand by the observation that you have no credibility without your own name.

Now you think everyone posting here is an Islamic terrorist. All we need is Paul on a ship doing his best Captain Bligh mutiny imitation. The last I looked Kearny on the WEB was not a town hall meeting. It is nothing more than a blog for people to express what they feel, good or bad. This is not a newspaper the last I looked? If you are so adamant a information not getting out, how to you explain Watergate. Deep Throat never had a name yet he exposed the Government for what it was, just as we expose Paul and Matthew for what they really are. If you want the truth sometimes you need to ask the people who were there at the time. Let's see how many names he calls in his next post or does he not want to come across as a lunatic or psychotic - and those are his words too.

[Guest Guest]

Paul,

I understand what you are saying. You, your son, and the rest of your family have the right not to stand for the pledge. That does not mean you do not respect our country and all those who came before us so that you are able to make that choice.

I choose to stand, just like I choose to pray. Our differences do not make one of us right and the other wrong. We are both Americans and I personally am glad that we are able to have differences or we would be in Nazi Germany wearing our brown shirts.

How about the fact that not standing for the pledge is just plain rude.

[Guest Guest]

Someone needs to send out a "WAAAAaaa" gram to all those on kearny on the web. I so very happy he knows how to google. Wonderful waste of time he must have. Speaking of time spent productively. Another one of the name callings that his highness Paul holds dominion over. It was Paul that invited the comment. He said he would post back and I guess Paul just did.

It's never about the issues. Lipstick on pigs. Just attack your adversary. Completely ignore the fact that you're wrong, as usual.

[Guest Guest]

How about the fact that not standing for the pledge is just plain rude.

Wrong. Forcing people to do it is rude. Refusing to be forced is patriotic and even heroic.

[Guest Paul]

Now you think everyone posting here is an Islamic terrorist. All we need is Paul on a ship doing his best Captain Bligh mutiny imitation. The last I looked Kearny on the WEB was not a town hall meeting. It is nothing more than a blog for people to express what they feel, good or bad. This is not a newspaper the last I looked? If you are so adamant a information not getting out, how to you explain Watergate. Deep Throat never had a name yet he exposed the Government for what it was, just as we expose Paul and Matthew for what they really are. If you want the truth sometimes you need to ask the people who were there at the time. Let's see how many names he calls in his next post or does he not want to come across as a lunatic or psychotic - and those are his words too.

This is a hoot. So you think you're Deep Throat, operating under cloak of secrecy to expose the evil lawyer and his evil son. Yes indeed, we have the vast power of the presidency to bring you down for disloyalty, so you have to keep your identity a secret for the good of the republic. Honestly, do you ever actually think about what you write before you post it?

A forum like this can be a vehicle for democracy. It all depends on how people handle it. You don't see it, so naturally it doesn't mean anything to you. That's too bad. The internet has opened up a lot of possibilities, but it's only as good as we make it.

And of course, you completely distorted what I wrote, as usual.

[Guest Paul]

Someone needs to send out a "WAAAAaaa" gram to all those on kearny on the web. I so very happy he knows how to google. Wonderful waste of time he must have. Speaking of time spent productively. Another one of the name callings that his highness Paul holds dominion over. It was Paul that invited the comment. He said he would post back and I guess Paul just did.

You made a point and someone proved that you were wrong. Instead of acknowledging the fact and learning from it, you insist on attacking me. Go ahead, attack me all you want. That doesn't harm me. What harms me, and everyone, is your ignorance and your unwillingness to reconsider your views or learn anything.

I wouldn't care except that you have a vote, just like I do. What you're doing is harming our country and our civilization. If too many people "think" like you do, democracy and our very civilization as we know it will be undone.

[Guest Patriot]

You made a point and someone proved that you were wrong. Instead of acknowledging the fact and learning from it, you insist on attacking me. Go ahead, attack me all you want. That doesn't harm me. What harms me, and everyone, is your ignorance and your unwillingness to reconsider your views or learn anything.

I wouldn't care except that you have a vote, just like I do. What you're doing is harming our country and our civilization. If too many people "think" like you do, democracy and our very civilization as we know it will be undone.

That's right, Logger, you have a vote and you must always vote strictly along the Democratic line like a good zombie or else we'll all become Nazis and our civilization will be doomed.

[wu-su]

There are so many things flying around here, I need to put things in perspective courtesy of Wikipedia:

Dictatorship is a form of government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed - concerns the source of the governing power (where the power comes from).

Dictatorship (government without people's consent) is a contrast to Democracy (government whose power comes from people).

Totalitarianism (government controls every aspect of people's life) corresponds to Liberalism (government emphasizes individual right and liberty).

Though the definitions of the terms differ, they are related in reality as most of the dictatorship states tend to show totalitarian characteristics.

Now, what about the Absolute Monarchy that exists in Kearny? Any comments?

[Guest Paul]

There are so many things flying around here, I need to put things in perspective courtesy of Wikipedia:

Dictatorship is a form of government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed - concerns the source of the governing power (where the power comes from).

Dictatorship (government without people's consent) is a contrast to Democracy (government whose power comes from people).

Totalitarianism (government controls every aspect of people's life) corresponds to Liberalism (government emphasizes individual right and liberty).

Though the definitions of the terms differ, they are related in reality as most of the dictatorship states tend to show totalitarian characteristics.

Now, what about the Absolute Monarchy that exists in Kearny? Any comments?

When you force people to say things they do not believe, or even put pressure on them to do it, that is a step away from freedom and toward dictatorship, especially when it is completely unnecessary. We can own businesses and our homes and our cars. We enjoy most of the freedoms everyone else enjoys. But the expectation people have built up regarding the pledge is one step toward a less free society, which is more vulnerable to dictatorial control. The proof of that pudding is in the reaction to Matthew's quiet act of non-participation. Teachers, who should have known better, assumed they could force him to participate. They did not understand the law, or what it means to live in a free society. The fact that they did not understand scares the hell out of me. Forced recitals are used by dictators, not by a free people who value personal independence and the right to think for oneself.

The slaves in our country lived under a form of dictatorship. They were owned, had no freedom. In the Soviet Union, the ideal was a dictatorship of the proletariat. A dictatorship needn't be the rule of one person. It can be the dominion of one group over others, or the subservience of one group or several groups under others. Both presidents Bush said that an atheist is not a good American. In that setting, how free are atheists and other non-theists in their own country? Put the shoe on your own foot before you answer the question. Walk a mile in your brother's shoes. How would you like being told that a Christian is not a good American?

Your proposed correspondence between totalitarianism and liberalism is strained at best. The Founding Fathers were classical liberals. Since the New Deal, liberals have favored more government involvement in the economy than conservatives, but as we see from recent events, government plays a necessary role in the economy of every modern nation. A world under the control of a few giant corporations is less free than a world run by competent but very active governments that are checked by democratic rule and the rule of law.

It's largely a question of what is necessary. In the military, strict discipline is needed. The individual soldier must suppress his individualism. That cannot be the norm in civilian life if one hopes to maintain a democracy and a truly free society. The goal is to encourage and allow as much freedom as possible, consistent with the practical needs of contemporary life.

[Guest Guest]

When you force people to say things they do not believe, or even put pressure on them to do it, that is a step away from freedom and toward dictatorship, especially when it is completely unnecessary. We can own businesses and our homes and our cars. We enjoy most of the freedoms everyone else enjoys. But the expectation people have built up regarding the pledge is one step toward a less free society, which is more vulnerable to dictatorial control. The proof of that pudding is in the reaction to Matthew's quiet act of non-participation. Teachers, who should have known better, assumed they could force him to participate. They did not understand the law, or what it means to live in a free society. The fact that they did not understand scares the hell out of me. Forced recitals are used by dictators, not by a free people who value personal independence and the right to think for oneself.

The slaves in our country lived under a form of dictatorship. They were owned, had no freedom. In the Soviet Union, the ideal was a dictatorship of the proletariat. A dictatorship needn't be the rule of one person. It can be the dominion of one group over others, or the subservience of one group or several groups under others. Both presidents Bush said that an atheist is not a good American. In that setting, how free are atheists and other non-theists in their own country? Put the shoe on your own foot before you answer the question. Walk a mile in your brother's shoes. How would you like being told that a Christian is not a good American?

Your proposed correspondence between totalitarianism and liberalism is strained at best. The Founding Fathers were classical liberals. Since the New Deal, liberals have favored more government involvement in the economy than conservatives, but as we see from recent events, government plays a necessary role in the economy of every modern nation. A world under the control of a few giant corporations is less free than a world run by competent but very active governments that are checked by democratic rule and the rule of law.

It's largely a question of what is necessary. In the military, strict discipline is needed. The individual soldier must suppress his individualism. That cannot be the norm in civilian life if one hopes to maintain a democracy and a truly free society. The goal is to encourage and allow as much freedom as possible, consistent with the practical needs of contemporary life.

I’ve never seen such a combination of pettiness and paranoia.

[Bern]

I’ve never seen such a combination of pettiness and paranoia.

What he said made lots of sense.

Too bad his words are wasted on the likes of you. And to think, your vote helps to select our leaders.

[WilliamK]

I’ve never seen such a combination of pettiness and paranoia.

What was petty or paranoid about it? Or are you merely throwing negative adjectives at something you don't like, like a monkey flinging poo?

[Guest Guest]

What he said made lots of sense.

Too bad his words are wasted on the likes of you. And to think, your vote help to select our leaders.

Took a lot of stupid to give us Bush.

Took even more stupid to give us Bush again, after he had already lied us into a completely unnecessary war.

Oh, and speaking of dictators, did you hear about the one who looked like a constipated weasel?

[Guest Guest]

Took a lot of stupid to give us Bush.

Took even more stupid to give us Bush again, after he had already lied us into a completely unnecessary war.

Oh, and speaking of dictators, did you hear about the one who looked like a constipated weasel?

Good analogy, except we're the ones with the constipation problem. January 21 is a long time to wait.