KHS Uniform Committee Meeting

[Guest Paul]

When this topic was first posted, it was in reference to inforcing a dress code in the high school. It seems like evry other topic, religion and politics have been injected. Look, I see some of these kids going to school, some are dressed properly and the others look like they are going to a rave. Some of the girls look like they are on Project Runway, with the skimpy clothes and heavy duty makeup. Should there be a dress code? I believe that it should go back to the way it was when I was in high scool, girls had to wear dresses and look like girls and the boys had to wear a shirt tucked in their pants I think we grew up fine and did not feel like we were forced, it was just the way it was. I would also like to respond to the post about standing for the pledge, I love my country, I am proud to be an American, I also have the upmost respect and gratitude for those who served us in the military and those who are there now, including my son. So I WILL STAND FOR THE PLEDGE, BECAUSE I DO PLEDGE MY ALLEGIANCE, my country gave me freedom, they protect me from harm and give me the right to say what I want, so to stand for Old Glory is a small price to pay. As far as religion, it should be left in the home and in church, it has no business anywhere else, if you want to pray then it can be done, privately or quietly, and I am a devout catholic, my dad always said," Never discuss religion or politics with anyone, they are private matters" so I leave you with that!

I don't doubt that your father is or was a wonderful man, but I disagree with him. I think we should discuss the things that are most important. The problem is, we've lost the art of discussing these things thoughtfully and respectfully. The result isn't peace, but the often quiet and often not-so-quiet distrust and even contempt that we see here day after day and month after month.

Austin Dacey, who has become a friend of ours, has written an excellent new book called The Secular Conscience. In it, he discusses the privacy fallacy, which is essentially the argument you just made. Look up the book up on line (http://www.amazon.com/Secular-Conscience-Belief-Belongs-Public/dp/1591026040) and buy a copy. You can read the first chapter as a sample by just going to the link posted above and opening the sample. Then let's talk about it, thoughtfully and respectfully. That's what a board like this should be about.

[Guest Paul]

He's not being forced to pledge. He can simply stand. Part of having manners means not everything is always about your own personal crusade.

This isn’t about one high school student not standing for the pledge of allegiance. It’s too far under your skin to be only about that. What’s really going on here?

Every culture has its myths. In the United States, we’ve had the myth of American invincibility, manifest destiny, unfailing beacon of justice and a few others.

What do people desperately want to believe, such that Matthew’s simple little protest can challenge it so – to such an extent that you cannot abide even one person daring to say that the emperor’s clothes might not be what you think they are? What are you afraid to your core might not be true?

If we find the answer, we will find an important part of the American soul. If we find that, then we will become a more honest, a stronger and a better people and nation.

[Guest Guest]

But he is getting a lot of shit for not standing for the pledge, something he has every right to do. Popular expressions are not the reason freedom exists in this country. Popular stuff doesn't need protection. Unpopular stuff does. Matthew makes a statement about the unconstitutionality of the current, post-1954 pledge of allegiance and that is his right.

I have no doubt that if you COULD force him to pledge, you would.

So why should the pledge be about doing what everyone else is doing? Good reasons only, please.

Oh poor Matt has to take shit for his actions.

As for reasons, see Speedy's post.

[Guest Guest]

I agree with you 100%. You stand for the pledge as I do because we love our country and we respect

those who have died defending our flag. We stand and pledge our allegiance because we live free

in the greatest country on earth. Then there's Paul and his brainwashed son, to them it's meaningless,

it's offensive and it's contrary to their leftist mentality. Like I've told Paul in a previous post, if every

adult male in the U.S. past and present was like him, we'd all be speaking German. Fortunately, you

and I and those like us outnumber the Paul & sons of the U.S.

You gotta love it. 99.9999% of the people, who are all doing exactly the same thing at precisely the same time are free, while the one kid who dares to challenge it and be different is brainwashed.

[Guest Guest]

Really s**ks for people like my brother. He's going to be part of the first senior class with uniforms. There has got to be a better way. Perhaps the first year should only require underclassmen to wear uniforms so those who have gone without uniforms for 11 years of public school don't have to suffer in their last year of school. I just hope this leads to lighter punishments for not having your school I.D. I got three detentions for drawing a mustache on mine when I was a junior. Wtf?

It's because of idiots like you messing with your ID that they are requiring uniforms. You just don't get it.

[Guest Guest]

This isn’t about one high school student not standing for the pledge of allegiance. It’s too far under your skin to be only about that. What’s really going on here?

Every culture has its myths. In the United States, we’ve had the myth of American invincibility, manifest destiny, unfailing beacon of justice and a few others.

What do people desperately want to believe, such that Matthew’s simple little protest can challenge it so – to such an extent that you cannot abide even one person daring to say that the emperor’s clothes might not be what you think they are? What are you afraid to your core might not be true?

If we find the answer, we will find an important part of the American soul. If we find that, then we will become a more honest, a stronger and a better people and nation.

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

[Guest Guest]

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

It may be lonely, but it's not without meaning.

As for having a desperate need to have everyone see things the same way, you still don't answer why it's so important to you that everyone do exactly the same thing at the same time.

[Guest Guest]

I agree with you 100%. You stand for the pledge as I do because we love our country and we respect

those who have died defending our flag. We stand and pledge our allegiance because we live free

in the greatest country on earth. Then there's Paul and his brainwashed son, to them it's meaningless,

it's offensive and it's contrary to their leftist mentality. Like I've told Paul in a previous post, if every

adult male in the U.S. past and present was like him, we'd all be speaking German. Fortunately, you

and I and those like us outnumber the Paul & sons of the U.S.

It’s no surprise that you would completely distort Matthew’s reasons for what he does. He has never said it's meaningless or offensive. In fact, he has made it very clear that he does not believe that. But of course, that means nothing to you. You’re not the least bit interested in the truth. All you’re interested in is telling yourself that you’re right, and you don’t what you have to do to do it, even if it means lying about someone else.

If anyone is interested in Matthew’s reasons for it, he wrote an excellent letter before any of his other stories broke. You can find it at http://barnson.org/node/640. In part, he wrote:

“When I sit out the McCarthy-era version of the Pledge, it is not because I do not care about, respect or love my country. Just the opposite, it is because I do. . . .

“I do not sit because standing is too hard, or because reciting the Pledge takes too long. It would be much easier to stand and not have people telling me I am "unpatriotic," a Communist, or spitting on America. Most of these comments have not been made by students, but teachers and staff members, the adults who are supposed to be teaching us citizenship! Standing would indeed be a small act. Sitting is the big one.

“My protest is to save my freedom and yours. The minute my protest is no longer respected is the minute all our freedoms begin to disappear.

“That is why I do it. If you wish to criticize me for it, the least you can do is not misrepresent my reasons.”

[Guest Guest]

QUOTE (Guest @ May 6 2008, 02:21 PM)

But he is getting a lot of shit for not standing for the pledge, something he has every right to do. Popular expressions are not the reason freedom exists in this country. Popular stuff doesn't need protection. Unpopular stuff does. Matthew makes a statement about the unconstitutionality of the current, post-1954 pledge of allegiance and that is his right.

I have no doubt that if you COULD force him to pledge, you would.

So why should the pledge be about doing what everyone else is doing? Good reasons only, please.

Oh poor Matt has to take shit for his actions.

As for reasons, see Speedy's post.

Speedy said this: “I would also like to respond to the post about standing for the pledge, I love my country, I am proud to be an American, I also have the upmost respect and gratitude for those who served us in the military and those who are there now, including my son. So I WILL STAND FOR THE PLEDGE, BECAUSE I DO PLEDGE MY ALLEGIANCE, my country gave me freedom, they protect me from harm and give me the right to say what I want, so to stand for Old Glory is a small price to pay.”

That’s fine for Speedy, but it doesn’t answer the question. Matthew declines to stand for the pledge because he loves his country, is proud to be an American, has the utmost respect and gratitude for those who served in the military and those who are there now, including Speedy’s son. So he declines to stand for the pledge because allegiance to one’s country involves defending its basic principles, including freedom. His country gave him freedom, protects him from harm and gives him the right to say what he wants and stand or not stand, so he exercises that right and honors Old Glory, the Constitution and all Americans by not standing. When he does that, he reminds people that what the flag really stands for is our freedom. The main difference between Matthew and everyone else is that there’s evidence that Matthew is actually thinking.

You're obviously not thinking. If you were, you wouldn't confuse the shit Matthew has to take with the people who make him take it. Matthew knows that ignorant people make him take shit for doing what he thinks is right. That doesn't justify their doing it. He is taking his moral responsibility, and all the lumps that go with it. They're not. They are insulated by popular opinion, so they think they can get away with giving him shit. Doesn't make it right. He is displaying courage. They aren't.

As the other Guest said, give me some good reasons why Matthew shouldn’t do exactly what he’s doing.

[Guest Guest]

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

Upholding the Constitution has very little meaning according to this pathetic person. Might doesn't make right.

[Guest Guest]

Oh poor Matt has to take shit for his actions.

And another fool attempts to substitute an immature quip for an actual, thoughtful response.

[Guest Guest]

WELL PUT .GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Over 4,000 "blessed" in Iraq. Thanks, God.

Grow up.

[Guest 2smart4u]

This isn’t about one high school student not standing for the pledge of allegiance. It’s too far under your skin to be only about that. What’s really going on here?

Every culture has its myths. In the United States, we’ve had the myth of American invincibility, manifest destiny, unfailing beacon of justice and a few others.

What do people desperately want to believe, such that Matthew’s simple little protest can challenge it so – to such an extent that you cannot abide even one person daring to say that the emperor’s clothes might not be what you think they are? What are you afraid to your core might not be true?

If we find the answer, we will find an important part of the American soul. If we find that, then we will become a more honest, a stronger and a better people and nation.

Discombobulated Kool-Aid musings.

[Guest Paul]

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

Your premises are false.

1. Most crusades worth fighting are lonely.

2. Conformity is a very big deal, especially now in the United States. You can’t have it both ways, making it such a big deal that you go crazy when even one person sits quietly and doesn’t participate; but for that person, you say, it shouldn’t be a big deal. You can’t see your own biases or your own double standard.

3. We’re not the ones forcing anyone. All Matthew is doing is sitting quietly while others do as they please to do. Why should that threaten you? You’re the ones who want to force something. So you have it exactly backwards. You’re the ones with the power. Why can’t you accept someone like me, or Matthew?

If you understood evolutionary biology and its applications to human social systems, you would understand that pressure to conform is among the strongest pressures placed on the individual. That may have been necessary in tribal societies where people literally lived or died depending on whether they conformed to group norms. In a more advanced society like ours, conformity is necessary up to a point, but not for these kinds of symbolic exercises. We’ve over-socialized our genetic predispositions, and as a result, history is littered with nations and cultures that have spun down into dictatorships and tyrannies. Yet no matter how many times we see this pattern being repeated, we keep making the same mistakes. Why can’t we see how completely unnecessary these rituals are? I’m not saying don’t have them. I’m just saying lighten up about them. Don’t demand that everyone participate all the time. When you do that, you take all the meaning out of it.

It is true that I am trying to persuade others to my point of view. So are you. Is there something wrong with that?

You didn’t address my question: “What do people desperately want to believe, such that Matthew’s simple little protest can challenge it so – to such an extent that you cannot abide even one person daring to say that the emperor’s clothes might not be what you think they are? What are you afraid to your core might not be true?”

[Guest Paul]

I just have a simple question and I was wondering what you views were of miracles? What is your explanation of them? You seem to have strong thoughts on religion and from what I know of miracles they are unexplained?

That’s a good question. My answer depends on what you mean by a miracle. I’ll start with the most traditional way of looking at it.

What most people don’t understand is that when we call something a miracle, we’re making assumptions about what is usual or natural and we’re drawing conclusions based on anything from a rumor to an observed occurrence or set of occurrences.

So when you read about miracles in the Bible, it’s important to remember that those accounts were written by primitive people with primitive understandings of the world. For example, the Bible presents accounts of demonic possession. Most likely those were cases of epilepsy or some other pathology. People draw conclusions before they have all the facts. We all know that, but yet people are reluctant to apply what we know to things they want to call “miracles.” If those things happened today, we would recognize what was going on, but thousands of years ago people drew conclusions that seemed most reasonable to them at the time. Problem is, they were drawing conclusions from ignorance, like a person shooting in the dark. So I don’t give any credence to those accounts.

It’s also important to understand how the human brain processes information. We don’t see everything we think we see. For example, if you see bits and pieces of an image you’re familiar with, your brain will literally fill in the pieces of information that were not transmitted through visual observation, and you memory will be that of seeing the entire image, even though you didn't. That is how many so-called miracles often come to be reported. People fill in bits of data they did not observe. When you look for any scientific confirmation, it’s not there.

Of course, that depends on what you’re talking about. If you gave a specific example of a “miracle,” we could discuss it specifically.

I look at miracles a little differently. For me, a miracle is something that happens, which is far beyond what we expected to happen or perhaps imagined possible. For example, when I experienced being born again, that was a miracle, but it’s all explainable in natural terms.

At the same time, I also agree with Albert Einstein, who said there are only two ways of looking at things. One is that nothing is a miracle. The other is that everything is a miracle. When I learned to live and look at the world the second way, it opened my life and made it better, and I think it made me a better person. In this sense, miracles are more about our attitudes than anything else – but if we’re going to take that approach, it’s important to distinguish between what’s going on objectively and what we are experiencing subjectively. Most people refuse even to consider that very important distinction.

As a suggestion, if you want to continue a discussion on this subject, open a new topic for it.

[Guest Patriot]

You gotta love it. 99.9999% of the people, who are all doing exactly the same thing at precisely the same time are free, while the one kid who dares to challenge it and be different is brainwashed.

So by you're loony left Kool-Aid mentality, standing to pledge allegiance to the flag; honoring all those

who have died defending the flag, respecting all that our flag and our country stands for, somehow means

you're not free ?? Disrespecting the heroes who raised the flag over Iwo Jima and countless other battles

in all our countries wars is OK because you're not "free" if you put your hand over your heart.

[Guest Guest]

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

You make me laugh. You accuse them of wanting everyone to think like them, but you can't even tolerate one person's dissent.

[Guest Guest]

Then he's being forced to stand. Any way you cut it, you're forcing people to participate in something that should come from the heart - and it would if you would stop forcing it.

It's interesting how you can only see it one way. When a person stands up for what he believes, that's not merely a personal crusade. He's making a point. Why must every single person do exactly the same thing? Why can't you understand that such things happen only in dictatorships?

You would have a better point if he wasn't an American citizen. That would be standing out of respect for the participants and the meaning of the exercise to them. As a citizen, he has a greater right to express himself about whether things like this are a good idea. It's called dissent; he is disagreeing with an overwhelming majority. In a democracy, we get to do that. He's doing what he believes is right. What skin is it off your nose, and what damage does it do to the country that he reminds us of our right to dissent? He's doing something very important, especially these days.

What you're really saying is that there is no room for even one person to disagree with the majority. Just where do you think that leads?

If he can't find it in his heart to swear alleigance to this great country that is giving him this great opportunity in his young life than he should get the hell out.

You would have a better point if he wasn't an American citizen.

I've seen more respect from non-citizens on this matter than from Jr.

One day Jr will grow up and see that life in the USA is far better than what the closed minded people who bred him and taught him make it out to be.

I am a vet and I realize I put my life on the line for "people" like you to espouse thier thoughts.

But the smugness in all your statements proves you have no respect for anyone but(or) yourself.

[Guest Gues]

Uniforms seem to be the important issue at KHS.

It hides poor SAT scores, high drop out rates, lowering HSPA scores and administration that know little about educational issues.

Bingo.

A great diversion, keeping them safe for another year.

[Guest Melanie]

The same can be said of you. Why do the pledge, and dress codes, and Christmas displays get under your skin so much. It's really no big deal, right?

What really bothers you is that people that think like you are 1 out of tens of thousands. You don't like it and you want everyone to come over to your way of seeing things.

You are fighting a very lonely crusade with very little meaning.

If it's no big deal, then why do you call people vile names if they don't do it?

[Guest Guest]

So by you're loony left Kool-Aid mentality, standing to pledge allegiance to the flag; honoring all those

who have died defending the flag, respecting all that our flag and our country stands for, somehow means

you're not free ?? Disrespecting the heroes who raised the flag over Iwo Jima and countless other battles

in all our countries wars is OK because you're not "free" if you put your hand over your heart.

No, you see, that's your problem. You're too stupid to be able to see what conclusions an argument does or does not support. So I'll try to put it in simple enough terms for you to understand.

If you stand to pledge allegiance because you want to, then you are free.

If you decline to stand because you think that makes an important point, then you are free.

If you stand to pledge allegiance because you think you must, then you are not free.

If you cannot decline to stand because people make you so miserable that you don't dare cross them, then you are not free.

That's really not so hard, is it.

[Guest Guest]

If he can't find it in his heart to swear alleigance to this great country that is giving him this great opportunity in his young life than he should get the hell out.

You would have a better point if he wasn't an American citizen.

I've seen more respect from non-citizens on this matter than from Jr.

One day Jr will grow up and see that life in the USA is far better than what the closed minded people who bred him and taught him make it out to be.

I am a vet and I realize I put my life on the line for "people" like you to espouse thier thoughts.

But the smugness in all your statements proves you have no respect for anyone but(or) yourself.

You have no idea what living in a free country means. You say you want it, then you deny everything it means.

Read what you're writing. He's expressing his thoughts, which is what you say you put your life on the line to defend. Yet when he does it, you refuse even to acknowledge that he is a "person."

Talk about smug.

[Guest Guest]

So by you're loony left Kool-Aid mentality, standing to pledge allegiance to the flag; honoring all those

who have died defending the flag, respecting all that our flag and our country stands for, somehow means

you're not free ?? Disrespecting the heroes who raised the flag over Iwo Jima and countless other battles

in all our countries wars is OK because you're not "free" if you put your hand over your heart.

No one has said that.

Try making your argument without making stuff up.

[Guest Guest]

1. If he can't find it in his heart to swear alleigance to this great country that is giving him this great opportunity in his young life than he should get the hell out.

2. You would have a better point if he wasn't an American citizen.

I've seen more respect from non-citizens on this matter than from Jr.

3. One day Jr will grow up and see that life in the USA is far better than what the closed minded people who bred him and taught him make it out to be.

4. I am a vet and I realize I put my life on the line for "people" like you to espouse thier thoughts.

5. But the smugness in all your statements proves you have no respect for anyone but(or) yourself.

1. He is already sticking his neck out defending freedom. If you don't cherish his freedom, you're as free to leave as he is.

2. I disagree. A non-American doesn't participate in our political process. For a non-American not to stand would be disrespectful, because there would be no reason for it - unless he wanted to show support for people like Matthew.

3. I think Matthew has already grown up, far more than you have, it seems. You don't even have the decency to call him by his name. As for close-minded, you're the one who thinks everyone has to do exactly the same thing.

4. Good God, do you hear yourself? If that's what you fought for, then be happy he's honoring your service by exercising the freedom you fought to preserve.

5. If you had any sense of respect, you wouldn't be calling him "Jr."

[Guest Guest]

You make me laugh. You accuse them of wanting everyone to think like them, but you can't even tolerate one person's dissent.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done.