Evolution

[Guest Guest]

Right. I forgot to include Mother Nature among serendipity, natural selection, trial and error, happenstance, random selection and hit or miss

At least you're consistent in your lies. These are still all things that no life scientist claims has anything to do with evolution, despite restating them.

Unfortunately for you, in reality, unlike your dreamworld, things don't become true just by you saying them over and over. You're still completely wrong, and you still don't know the first thing about what the Theory of Evolution is and isn't.

[Guest Paul]

Right. I forgot to include Mother Nature among serendipity, natural selection, trial and error, happenstance, random selection and hit or miss (just don't

include God in there or the atheists get their panties in a bind).

There is not one instance in your Bible in which Jesus acted the way you are acting here; not one instance when he met someone's sincere question with ridicule, much less ignorant ridicule.

The point made is that evolution is not mere chance. It's not serendipity, mere happenstance, random selection or "hit and miss." Natural selection is involved in the process. Natural selection could be seen as similar to trial and error, except that trial and error suggests someone consciously setting up the trial, which is not what is happening.

For you, these terms are all interchangeable, because you don't understand evolution. You refuse even to think about it, so you can't possibly understand it. So you throw these terms out as though they all meant the same thing, throw in an ignorant remark about people whose ideas and modes of thought you don't understand, then congratulate yourself that you have vanquished the enemy of God - your conception of God being nothing more than your own opinion.

What you don't do is respond in any way, shape or form to the post with which I opened this discussion. As I've observed before, if you wish to have any kind of intelligent discussion, or contribute to this board in any meaningful way, you must engage the other person's points. When you refuse to do that, you demonstrate a profound disrespect, which is completely contrary to the teachings of the person you claim to follow. There's a word for that: hypocrite.

I truly wish you would engage in an intelligent and thoughtful way. There is much for eveyone to learn and to gain.

Here, in brief form, is a summary of the overwhelming case for evolution.

1. The fossil record proves evolution. If you visit the fourth floor of the American Museum of Natural History at 79th Street and Central Park West in Manhattan, you will see one of the best teaching exhibits in the world. Paleontologists have identified how seemingly minor changes, in a bone in the inner ear or the mobility of the ankle joint - to cite only two examples - conveyed survival advantages, which led to the evolution of new species. As we trace the evolutionary record through fossils, not one piece is out of place.

2. Dating of fossils proves evolution. We do not just have fossils. We have dating methods that tell us how old they are. Every time scientists discover another fossil and date it, they give anyone who doubts the reality of evolution another opportunity to find an example that would prove the theory wrong. If, for example, scientists found human remains that pre-dated any other vertebrate, according to the dating methods, such a discovery would throw evolutionary theory or the science of dating physical objects into complete chaos. In science, this is called falsifiability. The theory makes predictions, and has been tested millions of times. Not once, in all those millions of times, has a fossil been dated in a way that contradicts evolutionary theory. On the contrary, all the dating verifies the functional story we see by looking at the fossil record in gross observation.

3. The genetic record proves evolution. Evolutionary theory leapt ahead by light years with the development of microbiology. We can trace the development of species through DNA, RNA, genes and chromosomes. As with the dating of fossils, a break in the pattern would disprove the theory, but yet again, after millions of genetic samples have been taken, evolutionary theory has a perfect record of verification. Anyone who doubts evolutionary theory should understand the enormous amount of information we now have, and the number of tests, any one of which could have proved the theory false. Just the opposite, all the testing has proved the theory true.

4. Evolution has been replicated. A common canard among those who would dispute evolutionary theory is that no one ever saw a monkey turn into a human. Of course not. Even if humans had descended from monkeys (we have a common ancestor), it doesn’t happen that way. Evolution occurs over many generations. We cannot see evolution happening among complex species like our own because a single generation takes at least fifteen years or so to occur. However, the same evolutionary principle applies to simpler species, and among those, scientists have replicated evolution in the laboratory. The most famous example is the drosophila fruit fly, which is commonly used for research. There are others, and as the science continues to advance, there will be more.

5. Evolutionary theory is so reliable that we use it in practical applications in two of our most important fields of science: biology and its cousin discipline medicine. As a result, life expectancies in the developed world have increased by more than a decade in recent years. Much of this is due to advances in medicine and biology as a direct result of evolutionary theory.

6. Evolutionary theory is the organizing principle for modern biology. That is how important it is. It is the principle that brings together all of biology, to such an extent that biologists are virtually unanimous in saying that modern biology cannot be understood without evolution; or to put it another way, biologists could still do some biology without evolution, but they could not understand it. Because evolutionary theory advances understanding, exponentially, beyond what would be possible without it, most biologists and most scholars of intellectual history say that it is among the greatest discoveries in history. Many say it is the greatest and most important of all, because it profoundly alters what we know about ourselves. Perhaps that is why some people oppose it so vehemently.

7. Evolutionary theory applies to all organic and quasi-organic systems. Every dynamic system that survives by reproduction in any form operates on the evolutionary principle. For example, social interactions are governed by evolutionary principles. All other things being equal, if an aspect of human behavior conveys a disadvantage, it will tend to disappear from the population; if it conveys an advantage, it will tend to spread. That is why political candidates pander and lie, why news media spoon-feed us entertainment instead of presenting real news and why religions tend to offer comforting stories: We reward them for it, and as a result those behaviors thrive and “reproduce.” An entire discipline, called game theory, has been developed from this understanding, has attracted some of the most brilliant minds in the world, and has been applied to everything from simple children’s games to business transactions to arms negotiations.

8. As our fund of knowledge increases, verification of evolutionary theory becomes progressively stronger. Because it makes accurate predictions, evolutionary theory has opened entire disciplines, and brought others from a barely coherent infancy into the realm of genuine science.

9. If we discarded what we have learned from evolutionary theory, our modern standard of living would not be possible. People who argue against evolution simply do not understand it. They assume that we would enjoy the advantages of modern life without it, but the truth is, we would not. No doubt, some of evolution’s critics have benefited from medical advances that evolutionary theory made possible. Fortunately for them, we do not withhold medical care from those who say they reject the very things that made it possible, but if we did, opposition to evolutionary theory would collapse very quickly.

I have used the word theory several times. Most people do not understand what the word means, so they say things like “that’s just a theory, it can’t be proved.” A theory can be proved. A theory may also be a fact. Evolutionary theory is both. It is a proven fact. A “theory” is an organized explanation for a set of phenomena, based on evidence and reason. Newton’s theory of gravity is a theory. If you have read the above with a misunderstanding of what a theory is, I can only invite you to read again with the proper definition in mind.

No doubt we will see the usual litany of smart-aleck remarks and non-responses from those who do not wish to know the truth if it conflicts with what they wish to believe. I can only invite them to have some courage, take a deep breath, read, think and evaluate. It's not going to go away just because you refuse to believe it.

And whether you accept it or not, it is very important to the kind of life we have chosen to live together. Think about how we are bound together socially whether we like it or not. This isn’t possible without evolution.

This is a lengthy exposition for a forum like this, but it barely scratches the surface of this vast and exciting subject. I invite anyone who doubts the truth of evolutionary theory to get out of their comfort zones long enough to study it – not what its most ignorant detractors write about it, but what its practitioners have written about it. Let them read books by Mayr, Gould, Eldridge, and dozens of others. Then let them re-evaluate their views. If they study with an open mind and a modicum of intelligence, they will embrace one of the most well-established and useful principles in all of science.

[Guest TheoryCat]

Right. I forgot to include Mother Nature among serendipity, natural selection, trial and error, happenstance, random selection and hit or miss (just don't

include God in there or the atheists get their panties in a bind).

You can believe whatever you want. We just get annoyed when you try to teach your fairy tales to our children. I can understand why you're so angry about it though-how many court cases has your side lost again?

[Guest TheoryCat]

Right. I forgot to include Mother Nature among serendipity, natural selection, trial and error, happenstance, random selection and hit or miss (just don't

include God in there or the atheists get their panties in a bind).

(emphasis mine)

I suppose one out of seven isn't bad.

Never mind-it s**ks. We don't believe in Mother Nature any more than we believe in the Tooth Fairy, Mohammed, Superman, or Jesus. But please-feel free to show how happenstance, random selection, or serendipity play a part in the theory.

[Guest Kearny Christian]

(emphasis mine)

I suppose one out of seven isn't bad.

Never mind-it s**ks. We don't believe in Mother Nature any more than we believe in the Tooth Fairy, Mohammed, Superman, or Jesus. But please-feel free to show how happenstance, random selection, or serendipity play a part in the theory.

None of them play a part, only God. And it's not a theory (that's for mortals), it's God's plan.

[Guest Guest]

None of them play a part, only God. And it's not a theory (that's for mortals), it's God's plan.

That's right, just say it and it becomes true. You've completely lost sight of the difference between fact and fantasy.

[Guest Guest]

2dim and Kearny Christian will be posting intelligent and thoughtful responses to this any day now.

QUOTE (Paul @ Apr 12 2008, 07:08 AM)

Here, in brief form, is a summary of the overwhelming case for evolution.

1. The fossil record proves evolution. If you visit the fourth floor of the American Museum of Natural History at 79th Street and Central Park West in Manhattan, you will see one of the best teaching exhibits in the world. Paleontologists have identified how seemingly minor changes, in a bone in the inner ear or the mobility of the ankle joint - to cite only two examples - conveyed survival advantages, which led to the evolution of new species. As we trace the evolutionary record through fossils, not one piece is out of place.

2. Dating of fossils proves evolution. We do not just have fossils. We have dating methods that tell us how old they are. Every time scientists discover another fossil and date it, they give anyone who doubts the reality of evolution another opportunity to find an example that would prove the theory wrong. If, for example, scientists found human remains that pre-dated any other vertebrate, according to the dating methods, such a discovery would throw evolutionary theory or the science of dating physical objects into complete chaos. In science, this is called falsifiability. The theory makes predictions, and has been tested millions of times. Not once, in all those millions of times, has a fossil been dated in a way that contradicts evolutionary theory. On the contrary, all the dating verifies the functional story we see by looking at the fossil record in gross observation.

3. The genetic record proves evolution. Evolutionary theory leapt ahead by light years with the development of microbiology. We can trace the development of species through DNA, RNA, genes and chromosomes. As with the dating of fossils, a break in the pattern would disprove the theory, but yet again, after millions of genetic samples have been taken, evolutionary theory has a perfect record of verification. Anyone who doubts evolutionary theory should understand the enormous amount of information we now have, and the number of tests, any one of which could have proved the theory false. Just the opposite, all the testing has proved the theory true.

4. Evolution has been replicated. A common canard among those who would dispute evolutionary theory is that no one ever saw a monkey turn into a human. Of course not. Even if humans had descended from monkeys (we have a common ancestor), it doesn’t happen that way. Evolution occurs over many generations. We cannot see evolution happening among complex species like our own because a single generation takes at least fifteen years or so to occur. However, the same evolutionary principle applies to simpler species, and among those, scientists have replicated evolution in the laboratory. The most famous example is the drosophila fruit fly, which is commonly used for research. There are others, and as the science continues to advance, there will be more.

5. Evolutionary theory is so reliable that we use it in practical applications in two of our most important fields of science: biology and its cousin discipline medicine. As a result, life expectancies in the developed world have increased by more than a decade in recent years. Much of this is due to advances in medicine and biology as a direct result of evolutionary theory.

6. Evolutionary theory is the organizing principle for modern biology. That is how important it is. It is the principle that brings together all of biology, to such an extent that biologists are virtually unanimous in saying that modern biology cannot be understood without evolution; or to put it another way, biologists could still do some biology without evolution, but they could not understand it. Because evolutionary theory advances understanding, exponentially, beyond what would be possible without it, most biologists and most scholars of intellectual history say that it is among the greatest discoveries in history. Many say it is the greatest and most important of all, because it profoundly alters what we know about ourselves. Perhaps that is why some people oppose it so vehemently.

7. Evolutionary theory applies to all organic and quasi-organic systems. Every dynamic system that survives by reproduction in any form operates on the evolutionary principle. For example, social interactions are governed by evolutionary principles. All other things being equal, if an aspect of human behavior conveys a disadvantage, it will tend to disappear from the population; if it conveys an advantage, it will tend to spread. That is why political candidates pander and lie, why news media spoon-feed us entertainment instead of presenting real news and why religions tend to offer comforting stories: We reward them for it, and as a result those behaviors thrive and “reproduce.” An entire discipline, called game theory, has been developed from this understanding, has attracted some of the most brilliant minds in the world, and has been applied to everything from simple children’s games to business transactions to arms negotiations.

8. As our fund of knowledge increases, verification of evolutionary theory becomes progressively stronger. Because it makes accurate predictions, evolutionary theory has opened entire disciplines, and brought others from a barely coherent infancy into the realm of genuine science.

9. If we discarded what we have learned from evolutionary theory, our modern standard of living would not be possible. People who argue against evolution simply do not understand it. They assume that we would enjoy the advantages of modern life without it, but the truth is, we would not. No doubt, some of evolution’s critics have benefited from medical advances that evolutionary theory made possible. Fortunately for them, we do not withhold medical care from those who say they reject the very things that made it possible, but if we did, opposition to evolutionary theory would collapse very quickly.

I have used the word theory several times. Most people do not understand what the word means, so they say things like “that’s just a theory, it can’t be proved.” A theory can be proved. A theory may also be a fact. Evolutionary theory is both. It is a proven fact. A “theory” is an organized explanation for a set of phenomena, based on evidence and reason. Newton’s theory of gravity is a theory. If you have read the above with a misunderstanding of what a theory is, I can only invite you to read again with the proper definition in mind.

No doubt we will see the usual litany of smart-aleck remarks and non-responses from those who do not wish to know the truth if it conflicts with what they wish to believe. I can only invite them to have some courage, take a deep breath, read, think and evaluate. It's not going to go away just because you refuse to believe it.

And whether you accept it or not, it is very important to the kind of life we have chosen to live together. Think about how we are bound together socially whether we like it or not. This isn’t possible without evolution.

This is a lengthy exposition for a forum like this, but it barely scratches the surface of this vast and exciting subject. I invite anyone who doubts the truth of evolutionary theory to get out of their comfort zones long enough to study it – not what its most ignorant detractors write about it, but what its practitioners have written about it. Let them read books by Mayr, Gould, Eldridge, and dozens of others. Then let them re-evaluate their views. If they study with an open mind and a modicum of intelligence, they will embrace one of the most well-established and useful principles in all of science.

Any day now.

[Guest TheoryCat]

None of them play a part, only God. And it's not a theory (that's for mortals), it's God's plan.

Of course, sweetie. That's why you won't be teaching it to my kids-we all know that ID is just creationism in a cheap suit.

[Guest Guest]

None of them play a part, only God.

Natural selection obviously happens. Open your eyes. A few simple facts prove it:

1. Living things reproduce.

2. Living things need resources to survive long enough to reproduce.

3. Resources are limited.

4. Survival is limited.

5. Mutations are ubiquitous.

6. From 3, 4, and 5, therefore those with harmful mutations are less likely to pass their genes on, while those with beneficial mutations are more likely to.

And thus, selection has occurred.

If you disagree with this, tell me which of the above facts are not true, and why.

And it's not a theory (that's for mortals), it's God's plan.

Could you explain why God gave us upside-down eyes and quadruped spines, then? What was the plan there, to toy with us? How intelligent could the designer possibly have been when even the creations themselves can see how flawed they are?

[Guest Kearny Christian]

Natural selection obviously happens. Open your eyes. A few simple facts prove it:

1. Living things reproduce. BY THE WILL OF GOD

2. Living things need resources to survive long enough to reproduce.

3. Resources are limited.

4. Survival is limited.

5. Mutations are ubiquitous.

6. From 3, 4, and 5, therefore those with harmful mutations are less likely to pass their genes on, while those with beneficial mutations are more likely to.

And thus, selection has occurred.

If you disagree with this, tell me which of the above facts are not true, and why.

Could you explain why God gave us upside-down eyes and quadruped spines, then? What was the plan there, to toy with us? How intelligent could the designer possibly have been when even the creations themselves can see how flawed they are?

I can't explain God's plan any more than I can explain why you're a loony atheist.

[Guest Guest]

Here, in brief form, is a summary of the overwhelming case for evolution.

1. The fossil record proves evolution. If you visit the fourth floor of the American Museum of Natural History at 79th Street and Central Park West in Manhattan, you will see one of the best teaching exhibits in the world. Paleontologists have identified how seemingly minor changes, in a bone in the inner ear or the mobility of the ankle joint - to cite only two examples - conveyed survival advantages, which led to the evolution of new species. As we trace the evolutionary record through fossils, not one piece is out of place.

2. Dating of fossils proves evolution. We do not just have fossils. We have dating methods that tell us how old they are. Every time scientists discover another fossil and date it, they give anyone who doubts the reality of evolution another opportunity to find an example that would prove the theory wrong. If, for example, scientists found human remains that pre-dated any other vertebrate, according to the dating methods, such a discovery would throw evolutionary theory or the science of dating physical objects into complete chaos. In science, this is called falsifiability. The theory makes predictions, and has been tested millions of times. Not once, in all those millions of times, has a fossil been dated in a way that contradicts evolutionary theory. On the contrary, all the dating verifies the functional story we see by looking at the fossil record in gross observation.

3. The genetic record proves evolution. Evolutionary theory leapt ahead by light years with the development of microbiology. We can trace the development of species through DNA, RNA, genes and chromosomes. As with the dating of fossils, a break in the pattern would disprove the theory, but yet again, after millions of genetic samples have been taken, evolutionary theory has a perfect record of verification. Anyone who doubts evolutionary theory should understand the enormous amount of information we now have, and the number of tests, any one of which could have proved the theory false. Just the opposite, all the testing has proved the theory true.

4. Evolution has been replicated. A common canard among those who would dispute evolutionary theory is that no one ever saw a monkey turn into a human. Of course not. Even if humans had descended from monkeys (we have a common ancestor), it doesn’t happen that way. Evolution occurs over many generations. We cannot see evolution happening among complex species like our own because a single generation takes at least fifteen years or so to occur. However, the same evolutionary principle applies to simpler species, and among those, scientists have replicated evolution in the laboratory. The most famous example is the drosophila fruit fly, which is commonly used for research. There are others, and as the science continues to advance, there will be more.

5. Evolutionary theory is so reliable that we use it in practical applications in two of our most important fields of science: biology and its cousin discipline medicine. As a result, life expectancies in the developed world have increased by more than a decade in recent years. Much of this is due to advances in medicine and biology as a direct result of evolutionary theory.

6. Evolutionary theory is the organizing principle for modern biology. That is how important it is. It is the principle that brings together all of biology, to such an extent that biologists are virtually unanimous in saying that modern biology cannot be understood without evolution; or to put it another way, biologists could still do some biology without evolution, but they could not understand it. Because evolutionary theory advances understanding, exponentially, beyond what would be possible without it, most biologists and most scholars of intellectual history say that it is among the greatest discoveries in history. Many say it is the greatest and most important of all, because it profoundly alters what we know about ourselves. Perhaps that is why some people oppose it so vehemently.

7. Evolutionary theory applies to all organic and quasi-organic systems. Every dynamic system that survives by reproduction in any form operates on the evolutionary principle. For example, social interactions are governed by evolutionary principles. All other things being equal, if an aspect of human behavior conveys a disadvantage, it will tend to disappear from the population; if it conveys an advantage, it will tend to spread. That is why political candidates pander and lie, why news media spoon-feed us entertainment instead of presenting real news and why religions tend to offer comforting stories: We reward them for it, and as a result those behaviors thrive and “reproduce.” An entire discipline, called game theory, has been developed from this understanding, has attracted some of the most brilliant minds in the world, and has been applied to everything from simple children’s games to business transactions to arms negotiations.

8. As our fund of knowledge increases, verification of evolutionary theory becomes progressively stronger. Because it makes accurate predictions, evolutionary theory has opened entire disciplines, and brought others from a barely coherent infancy into the realm of genuine science.

9. If we discarded what we have learned from evolutionary theory, our modern standard of living would not be possible. People who argue against evolution simply do not understand it. They assume that we would enjoy the advantages of modern life without it, but the truth is, we would not. No doubt, some of evolution’s critics have benefited from medical advances that evolutionary theory made possible. Fortunately for them, we do not withhold medical care from those who say they reject the very things that made it possible, but if we did, opposition to evolutionary theory would collapse very quickly.

I have used the word theory several times. Most people do not understand what the word means, so they say things like “that’s just a theory, it can’t be proved.” A theory can be proved. A theory may also be a fact. Evolutionary theory is both. It is a proven fact. A “theory” is an organized explanation for a set of phenomena, based on evidence and reason. Newton’s theory of gravity is a theory. If you have read the above with a misunderstanding of what a theory is, I can only invite you to read again with the proper definition in mind.

No doubt we will see the usual litany of smart-aleck remarks and non-responses from those who do not wish to know the truth if it conflicts with what they wish to believe. I can only invite them to have some courage, take a deep breath, read, think and evaluate. It's not going to go away just because you refuse to believe it.

And whether you accept it or not, it is very important to the kind of life we have chosen to live together. Think about how we are bound together socially whether we like it or not. This isn’t possible without evolution.

This is a lengthy exposition for a forum like this, but it barely scratches the surface of this vast and exciting subject. I invite anyone who doubts the truth of evolutionary theory to get out of their comfort zones long enough to study it – not what its most ignorant detractors write about it, but what its practitioners have written about it. Let them read books by Mayr, Gould, Eldridge, and dozens of others. Then let them re-evaluate their views. If they study with an open mind and a modicum of intelligence, they will embrace one of the most well-established and useful principles in all of science.

Well? The knuckle-draggers claim to know all about it. Where's their answer?

[Guest Kearny Christian]

Well? The knuckle-draggers claim to know all about it. Where's their answer?

God did quite a good job designing that evolution thing.

[Guest Guest]

I can't explain God's plan any more than I can explain why you're a loony atheist.

A Christian who asserts all day but can't explain anything? Can't say I'm surprised.

[Guest Paul]

God did quite a good job designing that evolution thing.

Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it. Questions:

Why would God design a world so that most of the sentient creatures in it had to kill and eat each other to survive?

Why would God design a world so that the creatures he loved would be inflicted with painful diseases during their lives?

If the death of a fetus is the death of a person, then why does God abort approximately one third of all pregnancies spontaneously? (This is a real problem for anyone who believes that one must accept Jesus in order to be saved. An aborted fetus has no chance to "accept Jesus." So either "accepting Jesus" isn't as important as your theology says it is, or God doesn't care that one-third of all his created souls have no chance to avoid eternal torment in hell. Query: to what extent can an aborted fetus appreciate the torment of hell? Do you ever think about questions like this? Why or why not?)

If human beings are categorically different from all the other species, then why do we share most of their DNA?

If your God is the real God, then why are there older religions than Judaism? How is that even possible? (If you think about it, this simple historical fact disproves your religion's central claims.)

In other words, you can make your claim, but that is not what the evidence seems to show.

And of course, it doesn't address the point, which is that evolution is not "just a theory," but also a proven fact. Perhaps that doesn't interest you.

[Guest Captain Obvious]

God did quite a good job designing that evolution thing.

I disagree. Any self-respecting god could have done a much better job than what we see. If a god was behind it, they should be ashamed. It's not like a god couldn't wipe all our memories and keep trying until they got it perfectly right, so even an imperfect god could have done better.

The existence of rheumatoid arthritis itself, a condition in which the body literally attacks itself, is proof that, if we were "designed", it sure wasn't intelligently.

[Guest Kearny Christian]

Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it. Questions:

Why would God design a world so that most of the sentient creatures in it had to kill and eat each other to survive?

Why would God design a world so that the creatures he loved would be inflicted with painful diseases during their lives?

If the death of a fetus is the death of a person, then why does God abort approximately one third of all pregnancies spontaneously? (This is a real problem for anyone who believes that one must accept Jesus in order to be saved. An aborted fetus has no chance to "accept Jesus." So either "accepting Jesus" isn't as important as your theology says it is, or God doesn't care that one-third of all his created souls have no chance to avoid eternal torment in hell. Query: to what extent can an aborted fetus appreciate the torment of hell? Do you ever think about questions like this? Why or why not?)

If human beings are categorically different from all the other species, then why do we share most of their DNA?

If your God is the real God, then why are there older religions than Judaism? How is that even possible? (If you think about it, this simple historical fact disproves your religion's central claims.)

In other words, you can make your claim, but that is not what the evidence seems to show.

And of course, it doesn't address the point, which is that evolution is not "just a theory," but also a proven fact. Perhaps that doesn't interest you.

"Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it". I disagree. Consider the existence of evil in the world; real unadulterated evil. Many

scholars believe that evil exists, that it's real although unseen. Exorcisms have been performed over the ages on those thought to be possessed

by an evil entity. While many have no doubt been misdiagnosed or misinterpreted, still there are many other documented cases where the subjects

have been spontaneously cured and returned to normal lives after suffering from possession for an extended time.

If one agrees that evil does truly exist in this world, then you must accept the premise that a different dimension exists, a dimension where

forces beyond our understanding exist. And if there has been one case of a spontaneous remission from a possession, then that leads to the

question of how?? If you're a committed atheist you may say it's all nonsense, there's no such thing as possession by an evil entity. However,

there are many who think otherwise and if valid it makes a compelling argument for a God who answers prayer.

[Guest Guest]

"Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it". I disagree. Consider the existence of evil in the world; real unadulterated evil. Many

scholars believe that evil exists, that it's real although unseen. Exorcisms have been performed over the ages on those thought to be possessed

by an evil entity. While many have no doubt been misdiagnosed or misinterpreted, still there are many other documented cases where the subjects

have been spontaneously cured and returned to normal lives after suffering from possession for an extended time.

If one agrees that evil does truly exist in this world, then you must accept the premise that a different dimension exists, a dimension where

forces beyond our understanding exist. And if there has been one case of a spontaneous remission from a possession, then that leads to the

question of how?? If you're a committed atheist you may say it's all nonsense, there's no such thing as possession by an evil entity. However,

there are many who think otherwise and if valid it makes a compelling argument for a God who answers prayer.

This isn't a response. It's barely tangential.

Of course, "Kearny Christian" just admitted that there are "forces beyond our understanding," and then just a couple sentences later makes a contradictory argument, proposing "a God who answers prayer."

So which is it? Do you have an understanding of such things or not? And if you don't, then why have you settled on an answer?

Not to mention the fact that if so-called exorcism was properly documented and verified, it would be science.

And not to mention the fact that even in the hypothetical, the conclusion (some people can successfully invoke the power of an unseen God to cure cases of exorcism) does not follow from the dubious premise (evidence seems to suggest that some exorcisms have been "cured").

Most important, why do you refuse to discuss the subject at hand, which is evolution?

[Guest Guest]

"Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it". I disagree. Consider the existence of evil in the world; real unadulterated evil. Many

scholars believe that evil exists, that it's real although unseen. Exorcisms have been performed over the ages on those thought to be possessed

by an evil entity. While many have no doubt been misdiagnosed or misinterpreted, still there are many other documented cases where the subjects

have been spontaneously cured and returned to normal lives after suffering from possession for an extended time.

If one agrees that evil does truly exist in this world, then you must accept the premise that a different dimension exists, a dimension where

forces beyond our understanding exist.

LOL, whaaat? Never have the following words been more appropriate: that does not follow. Not to mention that the whole existence of "evil" as a thing in and of itself is already pure speculation/assumption anyway. Conclusions based on assumptions aren't evidence of anything, goofball. Do you know what "evidence" means?

And if there has been one case of a spontaneous remission from a possession, then that leads to the

question of how?? If you're a committed atheist you may say it's all nonsense, there's no such thing as possession by an evil entity. However,

there are many who think otherwise and if valid it makes a compelling argument for a God who answers prayer.

Nothing but speculation. Learn the meaning of "evidence" next time you claim it exists--it clearly doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Guest Guest]

Here, in brief form, is a summary of the overwhelming case for evolution.

1. The fossil record proves evolution. If you visit the fourth floor of the American Museum of Natural History at 79th Street and Central Park West in Manhattan, you will see one of the best teaching exhibits in the world. Paleontologists have identified how seemingly minor changes, in a bone in the inner ear or the mobility of the ankle joint - to cite only two examples - conveyed survival advantages, which led to the evolution of new species. As we trace the evolutionary record through fossils, not one piece is out of place.

2. Dating of fossils proves evolution. We do not just have fossils. We have dating methods that tell us how old they are. Every time scientists discover another fossil and date it, they give anyone who doubts the reality of evolution another opportunity to find an example that would prove the theory wrong. If, for example, scientists found human remains that pre-dated any other vertebrate, according to the dating methods, such a discovery would throw evolutionary theory or the science of dating physical objects into complete chaos. In science, this is called falsifiability. The theory makes predictions, and has been tested millions of times. Not once, in all those millions of times, has a fossil been dated in a way that contradicts evolutionary theory. On the contrary, all the dating verifies the functional story we see by looking at the fossil record in gross observation.

3. The genetic record proves evolution. Evolutionary theory leapt ahead by light years with the development of microbiology. We can trace the development of species through DNA, RNA, genes and chromosomes. As with the dating of fossils, a break in the pattern would disprove the theory, but yet again, after millions of genetic samples have been taken, evolutionary theory has a perfect record of verification. Anyone who doubts evolutionary theory should understand the enormous amount of information we now have, and the number of tests, any one of which could have proved the theory false. Just the opposite, all the testing has proved the theory true.

4. Evolution has been replicated. A common canard among those who would dispute evolutionary theory is that no one ever saw a monkey turn into a human. Of course not. Even if humans had descended from monkeys (we have a common ancestor), it doesn’t happen that way. Evolution occurs over many generations. We cannot see evolution happening among complex species like our own because a single generation takes at least fifteen years or so to occur. However, the same evolutionary principle applies to simpler species, and among those, scientists have replicated evolution in the laboratory. The most famous example is the drosophila fruit fly, which is commonly used for research. There are others, and as the science continues to advance, there will be more.

5. Evolutionary theory is so reliable that we use it in practical applications in two of our most important fields of science: biology and its cousin discipline medicine. As a result, life expectancies in the developed world have increased by more than a decade in recent years. Much of this is due to advances in medicine and biology as a direct result of evolutionary theory.

6. Evolutionary theory is the organizing principle for modern biology. That is how important it is. It is the principle that brings together all of biology, to such an extent that biologists are virtually unanimous in saying that modern biology cannot be understood without evolution; or to put it another way, biologists could still do some biology without evolution, but they could not understand it. Because evolutionary theory advances understanding, exponentially, beyond what would be possible without it, most biologists and most scholars of intellectual history say that it is among the greatest discoveries in history. Many say it is the greatest and most important of all, because it profoundly alters what we know about ourselves. Perhaps that is why some people oppose it so vehemently.

7. Evolutionary theory applies to all organic and quasi-organic systems. Every dynamic system that survives by reproduction in any form operates on the evolutionary principle. For example, social interactions are governed by evolutionary principles. All other things being equal, if an aspect of human behavior conveys a disadvantage, it will tend to disappear from the population; if it conveys an advantage, it will tend to spread. That is why political candidates pander and lie, why news media spoon-feed us entertainment instead of presenting real news and why religions tend to offer comforting stories: We reward them for it, and as a result those behaviors thrive and “reproduce.” An entire discipline, called game theory, has been developed from this understanding, has attracted some of the most brilliant minds in the world, and has been applied to everything from simple children’s games to business transactions to arms negotiations.

8. As our fund of knowledge increases, verification of evolutionary theory becomes progressively stronger. Because it makes accurate predictions, evolutionary theory has opened entire disciplines, and brought others from a barely coherent infancy into the realm of genuine science.

9. If we discarded what we have learned from evolutionary theory, our modern standard of living would not be possible. People who argue against evolution simply do not understand it. They assume that we would enjoy the advantages of modern life without it, but the truth is, we would not. No doubt, some of evolution’s critics have benefited from medical advances that evolutionary theory made possible. Fortunately for them, we do not withhold medical care from those who say they reject the very things that made it possible, but if we did, opposition to evolutionary theory would collapse very quickly.

I have used the word theory several times. Most people do not understand what the word means, so they say things like “that’s just a theory, it can’t be proved.” A theory can be proved. A theory may also be a fact. Evolutionary theory is both. It is a proven fact. A “theory” is an organized explanation for a set of phenomena, based on evidence and reason. Newton’s theory of gravity is a theory. If you have read the above with a misunderstanding of what a theory is, I can only invite you to read again with the proper definition in mind.

No doubt we will see the usual litany of smart-aleck remarks and non-responses from those who do not wish to know the truth if it conflicts with what they wish to believe. I can only invite them to have some courage, take a deep breath, read, think and evaluate. It's not going to go away just because you refuse to believe it.

And whether you accept it or not, it is very important to the kind of life we have chosen to live together. Think about how we are bound together socially whether we like it or not. This isn’t possible without evolution.

This is a lengthy exposition for a forum like this, but it barely scratches the surface of this vast and exciting subject. I invite anyone who doubts the truth of evolutionary theory to get out of their comfort zones long enough to study it – not what its most ignorant detractors write about it, but what its practitioners have written about it. Let them read books by Mayr, Gould, Eldridge, and dozens of others. Then let them re-evaluate their views. If they study with an open mind and a modicum of intelligence, they will embrace one of the most well-established and useful principles in all of science.

Still no answers.

[Guest Guest]

Still no answers.

God has all the answers.

[Guest Guest]

"Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it". I disagree. Consider the existence of evil in the world; real unadulterated evil. Many

scholars believe that evil exists, that it's real although unseen. Exorcisms have been performed over the ages on those thought to be possessed

by an evil entity. While many have no doubt been misdiagnosed or misinterpreted, still there are many other documented cases where the subjects

have been spontaneously cured and returned to normal lives after suffering from possession for an extended time.

If one agrees that evil does truly exist in this world, then you must accept the premise that a different dimension exists, a dimension where

forces beyond our understanding exist. And if there has been one case of a spontaneous remission from a possession, then that leads to the

question of how?? If you're a committed atheist you may say it's all nonsense, there's no such thing as possession by an evil entity. However,

there are many who think otherwise and if valid it makes a compelling argument for a God who answers prayer.

Interesting post. Of couse the atheist Kool-Aiders didn't like it because it suggests there's more to life than cold evolution. If evil exists as

many believe, then a Godless evolutionary theory goes out the window.

[Guest Paul]

"Hypothetically possible, but there's no evidence for it". I disagree. Consider the existence of evil in the world; real unadulterated evil. Many

scholars believe that evil exists, that it's real although unseen. Exorcisms have been performed over the ages on those thought to be possessed

by an evil entity. While many have no doubt been misdiagnosed or misinterpreted, still there are many other documented cases where the subjects

have been spontaneously cured and returned to normal lives after suffering from possession for an extended time.

If one agrees that evil does truly exist in this world, then you must accept the premise that a different dimension exists, a dimension where

forces beyond our understanding exist. And if there has been one case of a spontaneous remission from a possession, then that leads to the

question of how?? If you're a committed atheist you may say it's all nonsense, there's no such thing as possession by an evil entity. However,

there are many who think otherwise and if valid it makes a compelling argument for a God who answers prayer.

No it doesn't. If a person could be "possessed" by an evil entity, that would make a better case for a god who is either incompetent or depraved.

[Guest Guest]

Interesting post. Of couse the atheist Kool-Aiders didn't like it because it suggests there's more to life than cold evolution. If evil exists as

many believe, then a Godless evolutionary theory goes out the window.

First: http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=86836

Second: I find the belief that there is a loving God in control who ALLOWS all of the crap in this world to happen a lot "colder" than the idea that there's no one there. What's worse, that no one was ever there to hold your hand, or that someone is there who REFUSES to hold your hand? Abandonment is colder than absence, thank you very much.

Third: Let me know when you find evidence of the existence of evil. That guy's whole "disagreement" about evidence to support his side relies on something that...wait for it...HAS NO EVIDENCE! That's really the best you've got, huh? Sad, really--such desperate attempts to deny reality. I pity you, really.

Fourth: The thing atheists (and many other people) don't like is your dishonesty. Cut it out.

[Guest Captain Obvious]

God has all the answers.

You mean the same God you can't prove even exists to begin with? Oh yeah, now I'm convinced.

[WilliamK]

God has all the answers.

Too bad he can't express them any better than the fuzzy-headed writings of the likes of Joseph Smith and the apostles.

Hey, that would be a great band name. "Joe Smith and the Apostles".