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What the story was and is about


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On another topic (http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=13581&view=findpost&p=65416) someone tried to argue that the Paszkiewicz story isn’t about what the teacher said to his students. Many people have focused on the religious aspect of his remarks. Those are important, because he didn’t just read from the Bible or say a prayer; he said that those who do not believe as he does “belong in hell.” He was disrespectful to and dismissive of all other religious beliefs but his own, and for a long time it seemed that our community did not care. That is a significant story in itself.

But in some ways, the bigger story, the one that got lost in the in-fighting over religion, is what this teacher said about his fellow teachers and about science; and how the community has reacted, or failed to react to it.

Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was. The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth. He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda. He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science. Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

Now let’s talk about the bigger issue, which is the science itself. Evolution is the foundation for modern biology. It is accepted and applied as a matter of scientific consensus all over the world. It may be controversial among people who do not understand science, but it is not controversial among people who do. Evolution is responsible for developments in modern medicine, and is at the heart of applied biology today. Biologists today are in agreement that without evolution, you might be able to do some biology, but you can’t understand it. Link, just as one example, to the following:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf (long version)

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/execsumm.pdf (short version)

You are free to believe whatever you like about religion – many evolutionary theorists are Christian, for example – but you cannot make the fossil record, the DNA record, the predictive success of evolutionary theory or the multitude of its practical applications go away. If we ignored that record, we would be shutting ourselves off from the world scientifically, behaving more like radical jihadists than like people in what is arguably the most successful nation on earth.

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science. Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about. And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination. Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like. The community understands who they are and what they are about.

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it. That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation. The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science. We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught. If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

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Guest 2smart4u
On another topic (http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=13581&view=findpost&p=65416) someone tried to argue that the Paszkiewicz story isn’t about what the teacher said to his students. Many people have focused on the religious aspect of his remarks. Those are important, because he didn’t just read from the Bible or say a prayer; he said that those who do not believe as he does “belong in hell.” He was disrespectful to and dismissive of all other religious beliefs but his own, and for a long time it seemed that our community did not care. That is a significant story in itself.

But in some ways, the bigger story, the one that got lost in the in-fighting over religion, is what this teacher said about his fellow teachers and about science; and how the community has reacted, or failed to react to it.

Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was. The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth. He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda. He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science. Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

Now let’s talk about the bigger issue, which is the science itself. Evolution is the foundation for modern biology. It is accepted and applied as a matter of scientific consensus all over the world. It may be controversial among people who do not understand science, but it is not controversial among people who do. Evolution is responsible for developments in modern medicine, and is at the heart of applied biology today. Biologists today are in agreement that without evolution, you might be able to do some biology, but you can’t understand it. You are free to believe whatever you like about religion – many evolutionary theorists are Christian, for example – but you cannot make the fossil record, the DNA record, the predictive success of evolutionary theory or the multitude of its practical applications go away.  If we ignored that record, we would be shutting ourselves off from the world scientifically, behaving more like radical jihadists than like people in what is arguably the most successful nation on earth.

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science. Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about. And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination. Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like. The community understands who they are and what they are about.

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it. That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation. The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science. We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught. If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

I'm impressed. Junior secretly tape-recorded a teacher without his knowledge and consent to save american jobs. Wow, what a kid. I didn't think that even you could cram so much spin into a post. Here's the no-spin truth; a Loony Left

atheist saw an opportunity to harm a teacher while promoting his son as a hero to all the other students in KHS. Your mailing of 300 press releases only serves to

reinforce my opinion of your personal agenda.

spin a topic this much.

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Science and technical education is lacking.

Technical jobs are being outsourced left and right. They pull kids in from Europe, India and China and pay them a pittance compared to American salaries. They immigrate them through the technical visa programs or work them off-shore.

The edge has been lost. A lot of companies refuse to hire Americans. As far as they're concerned, the foreign kids work harder, are smarter and cheaper.

We were the leaders in physics. Now the major work is done at CERN. Semiconductors - design done in Europe and Japan, manufactured in Asia. Takes years to get a working plant built. We're completely dependent on foreign countries for our semi-conductors including the parts used for our advanced weapon systems.

Computer science - India and China.

We still create a lot of civil and mechanical engineers. The jobs haven't been outsourced yet, but the careers are more challenging and interesting in foreign countries where they spend the money to rebuild their infrastructure and create have humongous projects like the artificial islands and hotels in Dubai or the high speed (200 mph) European trains. We spend our money and resources on war and war technology. We had the greatest engineering projects. The only large engineering jobs left are aircraft carriers.

Our private economy is now being powered by the food (agriculture, meat and restaurant), health-care and hotel industries. Search firms tell us that at least 80% of their requirements are in the service sector which is creating 100% of US job growth.

We're building a country where everyone will be serving - the "May I help you" industries. We gave away our scientific, technical and manufacturing industries.

RCA invented color TV. Try finding an American manufactured TV.

One industry that seems to be growing is the faith industry. The Catholic church may be short of priests, but other groups are creating them left and right and sending them out to proselytize.

I don't know all the solutions. I'd like to see us move from this service and military economy and get back to basics. We need to rebuild our infrastructure. We need build a superb mass transit system. We should be able to rebuild our railroads, so that going 200 mph is not exceptional. We should fund science research instead of say of just saying we will do it. Our electrical grid needs to be redone. Our water supply system has to be rebuilt and made resistant to droughts. Even something as mundane as waste management has to be re-thought and redone. Instead, we just sit and talk.

Once you do that, and the jobs are there then you will see an increase in science knowledge and education. The corporations who will be needing all those scientists and engineers will make sure of that.

We need to set good priorities. Our kids are being technically challenged and Kearny HS SAT scores are pretty bad. Worry about that. But the priority is to get the kids into uniforms. Great for a service industry society but not for a society that tries to be technically advanced.

I'd hate to see a future where decent American kids have to go to foreign countries for work.

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Guest Keith-Marshall,Mo
On another topic (http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=13581&view=findpost&p=65416) someone tried to argue that the Paszkiewicz story isn’t about what the teacher said to his students. Many people have focused on the religious aspect of his remarks. Those are important, because he didn’t just read from the Bible or say a prayer; he said that those who do not believe as he does “belong in hell.” He was disrespectful to and dismissive of all other religious beliefs but his own, and for a long time it seemed that our community did not care. That is a significant story in itself.

But in some ways, the bigger story, the one that got lost in the in-fighting over religion, is what this teacher said about his fellow teachers and about science; and how the community has reacted, or failed to react to it.

Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was. The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth. He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda. He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science. Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

Now let’s talk about the bigger issue, which is the science itself. Evolution is the foundation for modern biology. It is accepted and applied as a matter of scientific consensus all over the world. It may be controversial among people who do not understand science, but it is not controversial among people who do. Evolution is responsible for developments in modern medicine, and is at the heart of applied biology today. Biologists today are in agreement that without evolution, you might be able to do some biology, but you can’t understand it. Link, just as one example, to the following:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf (long version)

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/execsumm.pdf (short version)

You are free to believe whatever you like about religion – many evolutionary theorists are Christian, for example – but you cannot make the fossil record, the DNA record, the predictive success of evolutionary theory or the multitude of its practical applications go away.  If we ignored that record, we would be shutting ourselves off from the world scientifically, behaving more like radical jihadists than like people in what is arguably the most successful nation on earth.

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science. Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about. And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination. Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like. The community understands who they are and what they are about.

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it. That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation. The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science. We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught. If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

I agree, apathy is like a cancer that will spread if left unchecked. If we continue to disregard this situtation then the only thing this country will have left to export is "Christian Fundamentalism" and unfortunately outside the US there probably won't be much of a market.

I wish folks of all religions would take a deep breath, get a grip and be realistic about where we are heading.

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Science and technical education is lacking.

Technical jobs are being outsourced left and right. They pull kids in from Europe, India and China and pay them a pittance compared to American salaries. They immigrate them through the technical visa programs or work them off-shore.

The edge has been lost. A lot of companies refuse to hire Americans. As far as they're concerned, the foreign kids work harder, are smarter and cheaper.

We were the leaders in physics. Now the major work is done at CERN. Semiconductors - design done in Europe and Japan, manufactured in Asia. Takes years to get a working plant built. We're completely dependent on foreign countries for our semi-conductors including the parts used for our advanced weapon systems.

Computer science - India and China.

We still create a lot of civil and mechanical engineers. The jobs haven't been outsourced yet, but the careers are more challenging and interesting in foreign countries where they spend the money to rebuild their infrastructure and create have humongous projects like the artificial islands and hotels in Dubai or the high speed (200 mph) European trains. We spend our money and resources on war and war technology. We had the greatest engineering projects. The only large engineering jobs left are aircraft carriers.

Our private economy is now being powered by the food (agriculture, meat and restaurant), health-care and hotel industries. Search firms tell us that at least 80% of their requirements are in the service sector which is creating 100% of US job growth.

We're building a country where everyone will be serving - the "May I help you" industries. We gave away our scientific, technical and manufacturing industries.

RCA invented color TV. Try finding an American manufactured TV.

One industry that seems to be growing is the faith industry. The Catholic church may be short of priests, but other groups are creating them left and right and sending them out to proselytize.

I don't know all the solutions. I'd like to see us move from this service and military economy and get back to basics. We need to rebuild our infrastructure. We need build a superb mass transit system. We should be able to rebuild our railroads, so that going 200 mph is not exceptional. We should fund science research instead of say of just saying we will do it. Our electrical grid needs to be redone. Our water supply system has to be rebuilt and made resistant to droughts. Even something as mundane as waste management has to be re-thought and redone. Instead, we just sit and talk.

Once you do that, and the jobs are there then you will see an increase in science knowledge and education. The corporations who will be needing all those scientists and engineers will make sure of that.

We need to set good priorities. Our kids are being technically challenged and Kearny HS SAT scores are pretty bad. Worry about that. But the priority is to get the kids into uniforms. Great for a service industry society but not for a society that tries to be technically advanced.

I'd hate to see a future where decent American kids have to go to foreign countries for work.

The tragedy is that our opportunities are staring us in the face. Evolution is exciting! For me, it uncovers part of the mystery that is life. I think it's very sad that people reject it to cling to old stories. There's a world of knowledge just waiting for us to uncover it. We're not going to find it in ancient manuscripts, coded or uncoded. We're going to find it in the laboratories and the excavation sites and in the most creative regions of the human mind. It may not seem glamorous when you're digging in the dirt, but when you've done all that hard work and discovered something that no one ever knew before, the sense of accomplishment is all the more meaningful, and the spiritual rewards are tremendous.

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Guest Patriot
Science and technical education is lacking.

Technical jobs are being outsourced left and right. They pull kids in from Europe, India and China and pay them a pittance compared to American salaries. They immigrate them through the technical visa programs or work them off-shore.

The edge has been lost. A lot of companies refuse to hire Americans. As far as they're concerned, the foreign kids work harder, are smarter and cheaper.

We were the leaders in physics. Now the major work is done at CERN. Semiconductors - design done in Europe and Japan, manufactured in Asia. Takes years to get a working plant built. We're completely dependent on foreign countries for our semi-conductors including the parts used for our advanced weapon systems.

Computer science - India and China.

We still create a lot of civil and mechanical engineers. The jobs haven't been outsourced yet, but the careers are more challenging and interesting in foreign countries where they spend the money to rebuild their infrastructure and create have humongous projects like the artificial islands and hotels in Dubai or the high speed (200 mph) European trains. We spend our money and resources on war and war technology. We had the greatest engineering projects. The only large engineering jobs left are aircraft carriers.

Our private economy is now being powered by the food (agriculture, meat and restaurant), health-care and hotel industries. Search firms tell us that at least 80% of their requirements are in the service sector which is creating 100% of US job growth.

We're building a country where everyone will be serving - the "May I help you" industries. We gave away our scientific, technical and manufacturing industries.

RCA invented color TV. Try finding an American manufactured TV.

One industry that seems to be growing is the faith industry. The Catholic church may be short of priests, but other groups are creating them left and right and sending them out to proselytize.

I don't know all the solutions. I'd like to see us move from this service and military economy and get back to basics. We need to rebuild our infrastructure. We need build a superb mass transit system. We should be able to rebuild our railroads, so that going 200 mph is not exceptional. We should fund science research instead of say of just saying we will do it. Our electrical grid needs to be redone. Our water supply system has to be rebuilt and made resistant to droughts. Even something as mundane as waste management has to be re-thought and redone. Instead, we just sit and talk.

Once you do that, and the jobs are there then you will see an increase in science knowledge and education. The corporations who will be needing all those scientists and engineers will make sure of that.

We need to set good priorities. Our kids are being technically challenged and Kearny HS SAT scores are pretty bad. Worry about that. But the priority is to get the kids into uniforms. Great for a service industry society but not for a society that tries to be technically advanced.

I'd hate to see a future where decent American kids have to go to foreign countries for work.

"We need to set good priorities". Exactly right. Blame it on the defeatocrats,

their priorities are open borders and free college tuition to anyone who can swim the Rio Grande. Our prisons are full of illegal aliens costing us billions yearly,

California alone spends hundreds of millions annually on education and healthcare for illegal aliens. Of course there's no funding available to provide the scholarships and technical training needed to compete in our global economy. Blame it on the defeatocrats.

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Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was.

If he had been aware of your comments regarding the big bang, Paul, he could have said the same thing about you.

The truth is that all he probably knew about what Paszkiewicz actually said is what you said Paszkiewicz said. IOW, he probably got every bit of his information from the New York Times story.

The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

Tyson would be appalled at your understanding of science, LaClair.

On the other hand, Tyson proved himself rather trusting of the shoddy reporting by the Times.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

No, they weren't.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth.

Where/when did he say that? Produce the quotation on which you base the claim.

He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

You shouldn't be, since you're simply taking the comment out of context.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda.

Paszkiewicz did a decent job of teaching on epistemology, which is fundamental to doing both history and science. His motivation isn't relevant, not that I trust you to read his mind.

He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science.

No, he didn't. You've been called on this misstatement before, LaClair. It is no longer a merely a misstatement. You are lying.

Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

(said the liar)

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

How many biologists does Gates employ at Microsoft, BTW?

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science.

Don't worry. Homeschooling will bail us out yet. :D

Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

Paul is kind of overlooking the fact that importing skilled labor from other countries fills the gap rather nicely.

But he's not really trying to explain the economics, not really. He's just proving what a colossal demagogue he is.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about.

It's certainly no worse than having a lawyer sue the school over objections to things he knows nothing about (such as the Big Bang theory).

And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination.

Credit them for having a sense of proportion far better developed than anyone on this board who posts under the name "LaClair."

Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

Heh. LaClair's spinning that one. He knows that the settlement admits no wrongdoing by Paszkiewicz and makes no correction of statements made by Paszkiewicz.

He has to spin it to make his effort seem more effectual than it was, and to sustain his misrepresentations of Paszkiewicz.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like.

Note LaClair's tactic, here. He leads off with name-calling and asserts that the other side will disregard the facts. But what facts does LaClair even produce to assist his case? He's replaced facts with assertions, trusting that those who agree with him already will forgive the omission. And he's probably right, in most cases.

If you're interested in facts, try to find the correspondence between LaClair's claims about what Paszkiewicz said and Paszkiewicz's actual words.

The community understands who they are and what they are about.

And that's why they failed to clamor for Paszkiewicz's removal, no doubt. :D

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it.

Hmmm. So maybe they don't know who they are and what they are about after all?

That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation.

:rolleyes:

As if hearing an epistemological challenge to scientific theory will prevent kids from being able to learn science?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demagogue

The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science.

... while the U.S. continues to produce tons and tons of lawyers, instead. Perhaps we can sue our way to leadership in the fields of science?

We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught.

:rolleyes:

If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

If you're that concerned about kids learning science, Paul, then tell your kid the current understanding of the Big Bang that I explained to you after you made clear that you didn't get it.

Even Strife would have trouble coming up with a dumber post than this one from Paul.

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On another topic (http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=13581&view=findpost&p=65416) someone tried to argue that the Paszkiewicz story isn’t about what the teacher said to his students. Many people have focused on the religious aspect of his remarks. Those are important, because he didn’t just read from the Bible or say a prayer; he said that those who do not believe as he does “belong in hell.” He was disrespectful to and dismissive of all other religious beliefs but his own, and for a long time it seemed that our community did not care. That is a significant story in itself.

But in some ways, the bigger story, the one that got lost in the in-fighting over religion, is what this teacher said about his fellow teachers and about science; and how the community has reacted, or failed to react to it.

Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was. The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth. He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda. He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science. Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

Now let’s talk about the bigger issue, which is the science itself. Evolution is the foundation for modern biology. It is accepted and applied as a matter of scientific consensus all over the world. It may be controversial among people who do not understand science, but it is not controversial among people who do. Evolution is responsible for developments in modern medicine, and is at the heart of applied biology today. Biologists today are in agreement that without evolution, you might be able to do some biology, but you can’t understand it. Link, just as one example, to the following:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf (long version)

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/execsumm.pdf (short version)

You are free to believe whatever you like about religion – many evolutionary theorists are Christian, for example – but you cannot make the fossil record, the DNA record, the predictive success of evolutionary theory or the multitude of its practical applications go away.  If we ignored that record, we would be shutting ourselves off from the world scientifically, behaving more like radical jihadists than like people in what is arguably the most successful nation on earth.

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science. Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about. And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination. Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like. The community understands who they are and what they are about.

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it. That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation. The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science. We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught. If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

You're right about one thing. This is about economics. There's some truth to our lacking in technical and science areas but we're still light years ahead of India and China. I don't think that Bill Gates gives a damn about employing the youth of America. If he can turn bigger profits by using cheaper labor he will and so will most of corporate America.

And don't forget, not only are the Chinese and Indians willing to work for less pay, they'll do it in any uniform or dress code that you want them to. So much for your ttheory that uniforms stiffling creativity and drive.

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I'm impressed.  Junior secretly tape-recorded a teacher without his knowledge and consent to save american jobs.  Wow, what a kid.  I didn't think that even you could cram so much spin into a post. Here's the no-spin truth; a Loony Left

atheist saw an opportunity to harm a teacher while promoting his son as a hero to all the other students in KHS. Your mailing of 300 press releases only serves to

reinforce my opinion of your personal agenda. 

spin a topic this much.

Paul gave a cogent, factual and well-reasoned explanation of evolution and why it matters to our educational system. When a teacher undermines that, as Paszkiewicz did, the point in outing him is not to hurt the teacher but to defend the educational process and protect the students.

By contrast, 2dim4words told us everything he knows on the subject of evolution and its importance to modern education. For the reader's convenience, I'll reprint everything he wrote on those subjects below.

You would think at some point he would have the sense and enough self-respect to be embarrassed by his own ignorance, and not continue to display it for everyone to see.

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Paul gave a cogent, factual and well-reasoned explanation of evolution and why it matters to our educational system. When a teacher undermines that, as Paszkiewicz did, the point in outing him is not to hurt the teacher but to defend the educational process and protect the students.

By contrast, 2dim4words told us everything he knows on the subject of evolution and its importance to modern education. For the reader's convenience, I'll reprint everything he wrote on those subjects below.

You would think at some point he would have the sense and enough self-respect to be embarrassed by his own ignorance, and not continue to display it for everyone to see.

Morning hours are difficult for Paul, all his multiple personalities are trying to express themselves. This morning, "Tom" wins.

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"We need to set good priorities".  Exactly right.  Blame it on the defeatocrats,

  their priorities are open borders and free college tuition to anyone who can swim the Rio Grande. Our prisons are full of illegal aliens costing us billions yearly,

California alone spends hundreds of millions annually on education and healthcare for illegal aliens. Of course there's no funding available to provide the  scholarships and technical training needed to compete in our global economy. Blame it on the defeatocrats.

Of course, this doesn't address the point at all, since Patriot knows nothing about evolution and therefore has nothing to offer about that.

It is worth noting, however, that we'd have money to spend on education if we hadn't given it away to the super-rich and blown it on the worst foreign policy misadventure of our history. Which doesn't address the point of this topic either. At least the teachers we have could teach, instead of spouting misinformation.

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"We need to set good priorities".  Exactly right.  Blame it on the defeatocrats,

  their priorities are open borders and free college tuition to anyone who can swim the Rio Grande. Our prisons are full of illegal aliens costing us billions yearly,

While I know you are grossly exaggerating, the funny (only because I can enjoy black comedy) thing is that even if you weren't, your claim is easily overwhelmed by the fact that the Iraq "War" pisses away almost two billion dollars weekly! Not yearly, weekly!

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...arly_2b_a_week/

So you can shut your ignorant mouth about wasting money because this tremendous waste of time people call the "Iraq War" is costing us huge amounts of money AND American lives! Look to the board in your own eye before looking for splinters in others'.

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On another topic (http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=13581&view=findpost&p=65416) someone tried to argue that the Paszkiewicz story isn’t about what the teacher said to his students. Many people have focused on the religious aspect of his remarks. Those are important, because he didn’t just read from the Bible or say a prayer; he said that those who do not believe as he does “belong in hell.” He was disrespectful to and dismissive of all other religious beliefs but his own, and for a long time it seemed that our community did not care. That is a significant story in itself.

But in some ways, the bigger story, the one that got lost in the in-fighting over religion, is what this teacher said about his fellow teachers and about science; and how the community has reacted, or failed to react to it.

Very few people have the dubious distinction of being called “ignorant and scientifically illiterate” by a world-renowned scientist, but David Paszkiewicz was. The astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who is head of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, read this story in the New York Times and immediately wrote a letter, which the Times published, stating that people like Paszkiewicz should not be teaching. After seeing that Mr. Paszkiewicz has learned nothing from this experience, I agree with Dr. Tyson.

What is at stake here? That is the question our community should be asking itself.

David Paszkiewicz’s remarks on science were not just ignorant and wrong. They were ridiculous.

Let’s start with basics. He told his students that their other teachers over the years have filled their heads with nonsense, but in his class they’ll get the truth. He told them the state is promulgating some weird idea about what education is, but they can count on him to set them straight. This is supremely arrogant, and I’m surprised he wasn’t fired for that alone.

But to make matters worse, he lectured them on something he knows nothing about, and he did it to promote his personal religious agenda. He told his students that evolution and the big bang are not science. Forget for a moment about the fact that evolution is science --- I’ll address that in a moment. Evolution and the big bang are parts of the state science curriculum, and are taught in Kearny High. So here was a history teacher telling his students that their science teachers don’t know what they’re talking about, and he did it from a position of “ignorance and scientific illiteracy.” Just on principle alone, this is completely unacceptable.

Now let’s talk about the bigger issue, which is the science itself. Evolution is the foundation for modern biology. It is accepted and applied as a matter of scientific consensus all over the world. It may be controversial among people who do not understand science, but it is not controversial among people who do. Evolution is responsible for developments in modern medicine, and is at the heart of applied biology today. Biologists today are in agreement that without evolution, you might be able to do some biology, but you can’t understand it. Link, just as one example, to the following:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf (long version)

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/execsumm.pdf (short version)

You are free to believe whatever you like about religion – many evolutionary theorists are Christian, for example – but you cannot make the fossil record, the DNA record, the predictive success of evolutionary theory or the multitude of its practical applications go away.  If we ignored that record, we would be shutting ourselves off from the world scientifically, behaving more like radical jihadists than like people in what is arguably the most successful nation on earth.

This matters because the United States is falling behind the world in science, and losing jobs overseas as a result. Young people in India and China are overtaking our young people in science, and they are taking their jobs as a result. Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, says that he will not hire your kids if they cannot compete with the Indians, the Chinese and others.

It matters because we cannot afford to have our kids falling behind the world in science. Whether we like it or not, the labor market is now global. Your kids, my kids, all our kids, are competing with the Indians, the Chinese and other young people all over the world for a finite number of jobs. No law enacted by Congress, no amount of America-first patriotism, can undo that. Economic reality drives markets, and nothing can overpower it. If your kids can’t compete, employers will not hire them. The employers, the people with the money, will take those jobs elsewhere, and if they don’t, then someone else will form a company that will, and because that company’s labor costs will be lower, it will out-compete any companies that try to fight economic reality to keep jobs here. In the global economy, it is sink or swim, and we had better understand that because if we don’t, then we’re going to sink.

It is for that reason that we cannot afford to have teachers filling our kids’ heads with nonsense, babbling to them about things those teachers know nothing about. And yet that is what David Paszkiewicz did last year, and the community did not clamor for his termination. Completely apart from the religious issue, that is why this was such a big story. That is why the Board of Education has agreed to rectify the situation. That is what is at stake for you and your kids.

The ultra-right zanies who will defend this man at all costs and in complete disregard of all the facts can say whatever they like. The community understands who they are and what they are about.

The biggest story, perhaps, is in the community’s willingness to put up with it. That is what must end. In this, I’m trying to talk to the community, the otherwise sane people of Kearny who haven't said anything or done about this, because if the community doesn’t care about this, that apathy affects everyone’s education. This issue isn’t about liberal versus conservative, left versus right. It’s about your kids’ jobs, and therefore it is about their, your and our economic future, both individually and together as a community and a nation. The rest of the world, enough of it at any rate, is hard at work learning science. We’re fighting over whether established science should even be taught. If we continue to act like that, not only will our kids be unable to compete; they won’t even be in the running.

You can do as please insofar as it affects you alone, but when people interfere with the education of our kids, they affect us all. I cannot force anyone to agree, but I will not be silent about it, not after what I heard coming from that classroom. This community should have been in an uproar over what that man did, but it was not. That is why this was such a big story.

Do you want your kids to have jobs or not? Do you want the United States, our country, to remain economically competitive in the world? Among other things, that is what this is about.

So now the token black of astrophysics and an ambulance chasing lawyer should be the ones to decide who should and shouldn't teach? By the way how many advances has the world-renowned scientist, Dr. Tyson made in astrophysics? How long does it take you to count to none?

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Paul gave a cogent, factual and well-reasoned explanation of evolution and why it matters to our educational system. When a teacher undermines that, as Paszkiewicz did, the point in outing him is not to hurt the teacher but to defend the educational process and protect the students.

By contrast, 2dim4words told us everything he knows on the subject of evolution and its importance to modern education. For the reader's convenience, I'll reprint everything he wrote on those subjects below.

You would think at some point he would have the sense and enough self-respect to be embarrassed by his own ignorance, and not continue to display it for everyone to see.

The ironic part is that if you look at the evolutionary chart, 2dim4words is third from the left.

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Of course, this doesn't address the point at all, since Patriot knows nothing about evolution and therefore has nothing to offer about that.

It is worth noting, however, that we'd have money to spend on education if we hadn't given it away to the super-rich and blown it on the worst foreign policy misadventure of our history. Which doesn't address the point of this topic either. At least the teachers we have could teach, instead of spouting misinformation.

Spewing more radical left garbage, Paul. "worst foreign policy misadventure

of our history" ?? Would that be the Iraq war that the defeatocratic congress voted for ?? Selective memory still a problem I see.

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"We need to set good priorities".  Exactly right.  Blame it on the defeatocrats,

  their priorities are open borders and free college tuition to anyone who can swim the Rio Grande. Our prisons are full of illegal aliens costing us billions yearly,

California alone spends hundreds of millions annually on education and healthcare for illegal aliens. Of course there's no funding available to provide the  scholarships and technical training needed to compete in our global economy. Blame it on the defeatocrats.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070907/ap_on_...ani_immigration

How many times do I have to prove that your boy Rudy is more liberal on immigration than most of the Democrats?

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While I know you are grossly exaggerating, the funny (only because I can enjoy black comedy) thing is that even if you weren't, your claim is easily overwhelmed by the fact that the Iraq "War" pisses away almost two billion dollars weekly! Not yearly, weekly!

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...arly_2b_a_week/

So you can shut your ignorant mouth about wasting money because this tremendous waste of time people call the "Iraq War" is costing us huge amounts of money AND American lives! Look to the board in your own eye before looking for splinters in others'.

Aside from the fact that a stable and democratic Iraq is an extremely good investment, it should be considered what that money goes for. Much of it goes for the supplying and support of the troops. As a result, much of the money is getting pumped right back into the US economy (or for you lefties with a clue about economics, it goes to support the military-industrial complex).

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You're right about one thing.  This is about economics.  There's some truth to our lacking in technical and science areas but we're still light years ahead of India and China.  I don't think that Bill Gates gives a damn about employing the youth of America.  If he can turn bigger profits by using cheaper labor he will and so will most of corporate America. 

And don't forget, not only are the Chinese and Indians willing to work for less pay, they'll do it in any uniform or dress code that you want them to.  So much for your ttheory that  uniforms stiffling creativity and drive.

Of course they don't. When you have a global corporation that employ and market throughout the whole world, you're supposed to think in global terms - globalization.

Most of the elite have residences all over the world. They really consider themselves to be world citizens.

Obviously you've never had the experience of going to China or even bothering to learn about China. You have a parochial view.

Uniforms were worn by all during the Mao reign. Then there was no creativity or drive, it was not allowed. Following post Mao liberalization the uniforms were gotten rid of (even though some old time hard line communists still wore them). Soviets under Stalin loved uniforms. Notice, Russian leaders no longer wear uniforms.

In China, except for the security and police services, uniforms indicate lower class status. You go to any place where capitalism flourishes and you will the entrepreneurs, businessmen and high level employees wearing whatever they please. Uniforms are state security, PLA, police, hotel and restaurant workers.

And usually, the elite state security people don't wear uniforms.

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"We need to set good priorities".  Exactly right.  Blame it on the defeatocrats,

  their priorities are open borders and free college tuition to anyone who can swim the Rio Grande. Our prisons are full of illegal aliens costing us billions yearly,

California alone spends hundreds of millions annually on education and healthcare for illegal aliens. Of course there's no funding available to provide the  scholarships and technical training needed to compete in our global economy. Blame it on the defeatocrats.

Here’s a good example of screwed up priorities. 100’s of billions for war, but no funding for science.

Don’t fund and lose our lead in astronomy. Other countries will only be too happy to lead. And our bright astronomers will find opportunities elsewhere.

ARECIBO, Puerto Rico -- In the tangled forests of Puerto Rico's steamy interior, suspended by steel cables strung from 300-foot towers, an array of antennas hangs above an aluminum bowl 1,000 feet in diameter that gazes into space.

Arecibo Observatory, the largest and most sensitive radio telescope on Earth, looks like a secret outpost built by aliens. In fact, one of its missions is to search the galactic frontier for signs of intelligent life -- a sci-fi goal that landed it a leading role in the Jodie Foster movie "Contact" and cameos in a James Bond flick.

But among astronomers, Arecibo is an icon of hard science. Its instruments have netted a decades-long string of discoveries about the structure and evolution of the universe. Its high-powered radar has mapped in exquisite detail the surfaces and interiors of neighboring planets.

And it is the only facility on the planet able to track asteroids with enough precision to tell which ones might plow into Earth -- a disaster that could cause as many as a billion deaths and that experts say is preventable with enough warning.

Yet, for want of a few million dollars, the future for Arecibo appears grim.

The National Science Foundation, which has long funded the dish, has told the Cornell University-operated facility that it will have to close if it cannot find outside sources for half of its already reduced $8 million budget in the next three years -- an ultimatum that has sent ripples of despair through the scientific community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=topnews

The problem with scientist is that they try to be logical and scientific. They’re not catering to the faith based crowd. Instead of looking for aliens, look for proof that angelic powers regulate and adjust the heavens. State that it is possible the world may be 6,000 years old and the telescope is needed to prove it. You will then see their funding go into the billions.

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Spewing more radical left garbage, Paul.  "worst foreign policy misadventure

  of our history" ??  Would that be the Iraq war that the defeatocratic congress voted for ??  Selective memory still a problem I see.

Tim, I have enormous respect for both Senator Kennedy, my friend and my colleague, who I'm proud is supporting me in this race, and Robert Byrd, who's one of the most eloquent, capable people in the Senate. But let me tell you this. I disagree with them on that. The president of the United States had the inherent authority of the presidency. And if he wanted to go, he would have gone and could have gone anyway merely to protect and defend the interests of the United States. And the fact is in the resolution that we passed we did not empower the president to do regime change, we empowered him only with respect to the relevant resolutions of the United Nations. Now, the president, as we saw with Bill Clinton, had the power--President Clinton went to Kosovo without any authority from Congress. President Clinton went to Haiti without any authority from Congress. The president has the inherent authority, he had the authority anyway, and I believed, as Joe Biden believed, as Hillary Clinton believed, as Tom Harkin believed, and many thoughtful people, that by voting the way we did, we were getting the United Nations and the inspections in place and we could--and the president made his word to us that they would build that coalition and do it properly. The president, in my judgment, broke his word to us and to the American people and we have a difficult situation on our hands.

John Kerry, August 31, 2003 From Neet The Press.

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QUOTE(Patriot @ Sep 7 2007, 08:05 PM)

Spewing more radical left garbage, Paul. "worst foreign policy misadventure

of our history" ?? Would that be the Iraq war that the defeatocratic congress voted for ?? Selective memory still a problem I see.

Tim, I have enormous respect for both Senator Kennedy, my friend and my colleague, who I'm proud is supporting me in this race, and Robert Byrd, who's one of the most eloquent, capable people in the Senate. But let me tell you this. I disagree with them on that. The president of the United States had the inherent authority of the presidency. And if he wanted to go, he would have gone and could have gone anyway merely to protect and defend the interests of the United States. And the fact is in the resolution that we passed we did not empower the president to do regime change, we empowered him only with respect to the relevant resolutions of the United Nations. Now, the president, as we saw with Bill Clinton, had the power--President Clinton went to Kosovo without any authority from Congress. President Clinton went to Haiti without any authority from Congress. The president has the inherent authority, he had the authority anyway, and I believed, as Joe Biden believed, as Hillary Clinton believed, as Tom Harkin believed, and many thoughtful people, that by voting the way we did, we were getting the United Nations and the inspections in place and we could--and the president made his word to us that they would build that coalition and do it properly. The president, in my judgment, broke his word to us and to the American people and we have a difficult situation on our hands.

John Kerry, August 31, 2003 From Neet The Press.

Real patriots can see beyond party affiliation. The fact that our self-proclaimed “Patriot” reduces everything to Republicans versus Democrats only proves that he doesn’t understand patriotism. (He doesn't understand anything else either, so why make an exception?) If he would listen for once, he would hear the sound of Democrats all over the country expressing their displeasure with the leaders of their own party. That doesn’t mean that Democrats are less able to lead than Republicans. It only means that Congressional Democrats have failed to oppose some of the worst excesses of the Bush administration, including a disastrous war, and perhaps that Democrats as a group are more willing to criticize their own party than ditto-head Republicans are.

Leave it to pseudo-patriot to bring party affiliation into this discussion. Leave it to "guest" to follow the tangent. It is completely irrelevant to what this topic is about.

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Here’s a good example of screwed up priorities. 100’s of billions for war, but no funding for science.

As part of the President’s American Competitiveness Initiative (ACI), the 2008 Budget provides an increase of 6.8 percent over the 2007 Budget for the National Science Foundation (NSF), continuing a 10-year commitment to double critical basic research investments across key agencies in the physical sciences, engineering, and related fields. NSF research builds the foundations for innovative technologies that drive economic growth and enhance quality of life. A broad portfolio of basic research—from the fields at the heart of ACI, such as physics, chemistry, mathematics, engineering, and computer science, to other fields, such as the geological, biological, behavioral, and social sciences—will energize science broadly and sustain the productivity of the Nation’s science and engineering enterprise and keep America at the forefront of world discovery and innovation. Past NSF research has contributed to the development of the Internet and Internet search engines, fiber-optics, color plasma displays, magnetic resonance imaging, and other advances that now help each of us in our daily lives.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/nsf.html

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QUOTE(Patriot @ Sep 7 2007, 08:05 PM)

Spewing more radical left garbage, Paul. "worst foreign policy misadventure

of our history" ?? Would that be the Iraq war that the defeatocratic congress voted for ?? Selective memory still a problem I see.

Real patriots can see beyond party affiliation. The fact that our self-proclaimed “Patriot” reduces everything to Republicans versus Democrats only proves that he doesn’t understand patriotism. (He doesn't understand anything else either, so why make an exception?) If he would listen for once, he would hear the sound of Democrats all over the country expressing their displeasure with the leaders of their own party. That doesn’t mean that Democrats are less able to lead than Republicans. It only means that Congressional Democrats have failed to oppose some of the worst excesses of the Bush administration, including a disastrous war, and perhaps that Democrats as a group are more willing to criticize their own party than ditto-head Republicans are.

Leave it to pseudo-patriot to bring party affiliation into this discussion. Leave it to "guest" to follow the tangent. It is completely irrelevant to what this topic is about.

"That doesn't mean the Democrats are less able to lead than Republicans" ??

Apparently you're unaware that Hilliary and Obama both refused to criticise

MoveOn for their anti-american ad in the NY Slimes. Courage must be a

prerequisite for a presidential candidate. Looks like they're both lacking in that

area.

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Guest BushBacker

Real patriots can see beyond party affiliation. The fact that our self-proclaimed “Patriot” reduces everything to Republicans versus Democrats only proves that he doesn’t understand patriotism. (He doesn't understand anything else either, so why make an exception?) If he would listen for once, he would hear the sound of Democrats all over the country expressing their displeasure with the leaders of their own party. That doesn’t mean that Democrats are less able to lead than Republicans. It only means that Congressional Democrats have failed to oppose some of the worst excesses of the Bush administration, including a disastrous war, and perhaps that Democrats as a group are more willing to criticize their own party than ditto-head Republicans are.

Leave it to pseudo-patriot to bring party affiliation into this discussion. Leave it to "guest" to follow the tangent. It is completely irrelevant to what this topic is about.

"That doesn't mean the Democrats are less able to lead than Republicans" ??

Apparently you're unaware that Hilliary and Obama both refused to criticise

MoveOn for their anti-american ad in the NY Slimes. Courage must be a

prerequisite for a presidential candidate. Looks like they're both lacking in that

area.

Both Hilliary and Obama are afraid of the LoonyLeft. The Congress voted today

to condemn the ad with Hilliary and Obama voting no. Disgusting.

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