Jump to content

Constructing reality in your head


Guest Paul
 Share

Recommended Posts

These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Guest Guest
These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

It must be cool to have evrything so nailed down and know you're right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

It's too bad people focus on issues that are aren't much worth talking about even if they were true, such as the above.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

What story? The defense of hell from the charge of being unjust? I haven't bothered with the distracting topics you listed--but you avoid getting to the nuts and bolts of that argument with me, preferring a highbrow version of the types of distractions about which you just complained (with the complaint warranting its own thread, no less).

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

Yet Paul doesn't see himself in the picture he painted. :)

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

(Paul probably doesn't have himself in mind, here)

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

What do you expect? You're attacking Christians as being MOL stupid as a class. But you want to be somehow immune from criticism? I don't suppose you've ever noticed how poorly the average skeptic who criticizes the Bible understand the work he's criticizing? On the contrary, they tend to congratulate one another on their higher level of understanding.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

You are religious, Paul. You believe in a universal and objective system of morality when you present no reasonable evidence in favor of it. You exercise faith in opposition to the evidence.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

Like what?

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

As if your assertions made without the benefit of evidence warrant respectful and intelligent discussion?

They might if you come up with the evidence.

Shall we time you by the wall calendar?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

What you don't get is that your as much of a wacko as any fundie posting on this board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Red-Letter Edition
These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

About respecting religion, I believe you have demonstrated by your posts that you respect secular Humanism, but your remarks about Christianity have been disparaging.

About not writing this to complain, why write it at all then? It gives every impression of someone having to continually "set the record straigt" and appears immature. If you had never explained these issues before, I could understand. However, your star status on this website was achieved by explaining these issues over eight months.

If the point is to let the community know what fundamentalists believe, I'll help you, the list looks something like this:

1. The Old and New Testaments are God's inspired Word to man.

2. The Trinity

3. The Virgin Birth of Christ

4. The Deity of Jesus Christ

5. Christ's Substitutionary death

6. Christ's Resurrection.

7. Christ's Second Coming.

The central tennets of the Christian Faith are not damaging at all. However, the Bible warns of a day when these truths will be abandoned:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teacherswho will say what their itching ears want to hear." II Timothy 4:3

By the way, how do you know all your critics are fundamentalists? Have they identified themselves as such?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Autonomous
In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

I edited out most of the post, leaving the insulting parts to make a point-do you really think those comments could lead to a respectful and intelligent discussion? Whatever you think of faith, it is of utmost importance to those who have it. My mother-in-law, much to my dismay, has been following me around on the internet using my bookmarks as a guide. As you can see, "Conservative Mommy" is very much what you would call a fundie. However, in real life we are capable of getting along because I try to respect her faith and she rarely mentions my lack thereof. To me, anyway. Probably because I put a roof over her head, but whatever works. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About respecting religion, I believe you have demonstrated by your posts that you respect secular Humanism, but your remarks about Christianity have been disparaging.

Cry me a river--I've seen what people like you have to say about atheists. And atheists have never started a war for the sole purpose of wiping out believers--that's more than I can say for Christians.

http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks/image...ettle-black.jpg

About not writing this to complain, why write it at all then?  It gives every impression of someone having to continually "set the record straigt" and appears immature.

As opposed to making all kinds of empty claims, including that whoever doesn't buy into the crazy story you do will be eternally tormented in an equally crazy place.

What's so immature about trying to get you to justify such an outrageous claim? 'Cause honestly, it sounds quite insane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

I think you are full of crap.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

And that damage would be.....?

It's interesting to me that the many organizations that have soup kitchens to provide for the needy are in fact christian ones. It might help your cause to list the atheist groups that help the community.

If you claim to be so deeply religous, why not "live and let live"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

QUOTE

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

Like what?

Like inventing WMDs out of whole cloth to justify an unwinnable war in a country that didn't attack us. Like asserting the freedom to own slaves, one of the justifications for which was that the Bible said slavery was OK. Like completely looking the other way when a supposedly conservative president abandons most of what made conservatism a credible governmental philosophy.

When you premise your thinking on an arbitrary authority instead of basing your thinking on the facts, and when you declare things to be true because you want them to be true, you inevitably run into trouble sooner or later. Those are two hallmarks of fundamentalist thinking.

I'm far from the only person making these points. Reasonable people have always rolled their eyes at religious fundamentalists who think their way is the only way. The only difference now is that some of us are starting to be more vocal about it because we see the damage it has done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About respecting religion, I believe you have demonstrated by your posts that you respect secular Humanism, but your remarks about Christianity have been disparaging.

About not writing this to complain, why write it at all then?  It gives every impression of someone having to continually "set the record straigt" and appears immature.  If you had never explained these issues before, I could understand.  However, your star status on this website was achieved by explaining these issues over eight months.

If the point is to let the community know what fundamentalists believe, I'll help you, the list looks something like this:

1. The Old and New Testaments are God's inspired Word to man.

2. The Trinity

3. The Virgin Birth of Christ

4. The Deity of Jesus Christ

5. Christ's Substitutionary death

6. Christ's Resurrection.

7. Christ's Second Coming.

The central tennets of the Christian Faith are not damaging at all. However, the Bible warns of a day when these truths will be abandoned:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.  Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teacherswho will say what their itching ears want to hear."  II Timothy 4:3 

By the way, how do you know all your critics are fundamentalists?  Have they identified themselves as such?

I intend to continue writing about these issues because I think they're important. No one is required to read or respond.

I never said all my critics were fundamentalists, but it's obvious that many of them are. In addition, I've noticed a strong inclination among die-hard religious fundamentalists to make things up. It goes along with what they call "faith-based" thinking, by which they mean that if you believe it hard enough it will be true, especially if you tell a story about it and even more especially if your church members hoot and holler in support while you're doing it. That is exactly how a lot of people justify their religious beliefs. This has a basis in social psychology, which studies how community support influences belief.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I edited out most of the post, leaving the insulting parts to make a point-do you really think those comments could lead to a respectful and intelligent discussion? Whatever you think of faith, it is of utmost importance to those who have it. My mother-in-law, much to my dismay, has been following me around on the internet using my bookmarks as a guide. As you can see, "Conservative Mommy" is very much what you would call a fundie. However, in real life we are capable of getting along because I try to respect her faith and she rarely mentions my lack thereof. To me, anyway. Probably because I put a roof over her head, but whatever works. :D

I appreciate that, but this way of thinking has become so ingrained and so much a part of our political life that it has undermined our national community. The right has no hesitation about criticizing the left in our political beliefs, and especially no hesitation about criticizing those of us whom it calls non-believers. (I reject the term because we all believe in something.) Sam Harris' recent book, The End of Faith, expresses some thoughts I have had for a long time, including the idea that we must break the taboo against speaking honestly about damaging aspects of some religious beliefs. If "Conservative Mommy" doesn't like what is being said, let her join the discussion and offer a critique. That's fair game on both sides. However, what I find coming from the religious right, usually, is not a critique of what people like me believe, but a critique of a caricature of it. An honest discussion requires intellectual honesty, which is also in short supply on the religious right generally speaking. There are exceptions.

Look, you can't look at the history of our country honestly, with the officially sanctioned freedom to own slaves once a part of our law, and not see that we have a long-standing problem on this score. Compare that to the ongoing debacle in Iraq, with a sizable number of our people (most of them members of the religious right) still insisting that WMDs were found in Iraq and that Hussain was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. We got rid of slavery, but the same modes of thinking are now popping up again. We can't organize and run the most advanced country in the history of the world on pipe dreams and fantasies, especially nasty and divisive ones. That is what I am speaking out against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

QUOTE(Paul @ Jun 23 2007, 11:51 AM)

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

I think you are full of crap.

Many Christians agree that the hard-line fundamentalists drain the life out of religion, turning it from an instrument of good into an instrument of evil. Read, for example, the books by John Shelby Spong and a great many other recent authors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, how do you know all your critics are fundamentalists?  Have they identified themselves as such?

How do you know he believes that? He'd be quite justified to think that at least the most vocal core of his critics are fundamentalists. That much has been made obvious by their own words. But he has never claimed that all of them are. That idea appears to be the product of your imagination, not his.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Keith-Marshall.Mo
I think you are full of crap.

And that damage would be.....?

It's interesting to me that the many organizations that have soup kitchens to provide for the needy are in fact christian ones. It might help your cause to list the atheist groups that help the community.

If you claim to be so deeply religous, why not "live and let live"?

And that makes thier judging others ok then?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that damage would be.....?

9/11 happened only a handful of years ago. Have you forgotten already how dangerous fundamentalism is?

And don't even try the "but that just means Islam is evil!" Bullshit. One visit to Fundies Say the Darndest Things and you'll find a ton of quotes by Christians on several of their own forums saying things that reflect a mindset just as dangerous.

For a sample, look at the top 100 (I warn you all now, the stupidity is nearly physically painful to read): http://fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx

It's interesting to me that the many organizations that have soup kitchens to provide for the needy are in fact christian ones. It might help your cause to list the atheist groups that help the community.

Well, let's see--last I heard, Bill Gates was an atheist, and it seems he's given more money to charity than any entity, Christian or not, ever. :D

Also, Kearny's own library's computers were bought with a grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and I think they're going to be upgraded soon with another 'shot' of the same grant.

If you claim to be so deeply religous, why not "live and let live"?

We would, if you would! We are merely defending ourselves from the imposition coming from people like you. When you stop trying to turn your beliefs into everyone's laws, we'll leave you alone. Until then, expect heavy opposition. You've earned it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Red-Letter Edition

9/11 happened only a handful of years ago. Have you forgotten already how dangerous fundamentalism is?

And don't even try the "but that just means Islam is evil!" Bullshit. One visit to Fundies Say the Darndest Things and you'll find a ton of quotes by Christians on several of their own forums saying things that reflect a mindset just as dangerous.

Strife, the best example of the damage caused by fundamentalism you can come up with is 911?

I already gave the traditional list of fudamentals of the faith in an earlier post.

How about a legitimate example of a great evil Christian Fundamentalism has caused. Please don't include an example involving an idivididual. That would be unfair. Their are individuals in every group that are bad examples. As an Atheist, I'm sure you remember the evils foisted on the world by such noted individual Atheists like Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse Tung.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Autonomous
I appreciate that, but this way of thinking has become so ingrained and so much a part of our political life that it has undermined our national community. The right has no hesitation about criticizing the left in our political beliefs, and especially no hesitation about criticizing those of us whom it calls non-believers. (I reject the term because we all believe in something.) Sam Harris' recent book, The End of Faith, expresses some thoughts I have had for a long time, including the idea that we must break the taboo against speaking honestly about damaging aspects of some religious beliefs. If "Conservative Mommy" doesn't like what is being said, let her join the discussion and offer a critique. That's fair game on both sides. However, what I find coming from the religious right, usually, is not a critique of what people like me believe, but a critique of a caricature of it. An honest discussion requires intellectual honesty, which is also in short supply on the religious right generally speaking. There are exceptions.

Look, you can't look at the history of our country honestly, with the officially sanctioned freedom to own slaves once a part of our law, and not see that we have a long-standing problem on this score. Compare that to the ongoing debacle in Iraq, with a sizable number of our people (most of them members of the religious right) still insisting that WMDs were found in Iraq and that Hussain was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. We got rid of slavery, but the same modes of thinking are now popping up again. We can't organize and run the most advanced country in the history of the world on pipe dreams and fantasies, especially nasty and divisive ones. That is what I am speaking out against.

The problem is not religion though, it is blind obedience to an idea. Whether the idea is slavery, conservativism, liberalism, Islam, Christianity, communism, capitalism-whatever it may be. No one belief system has all the facts, but many people seem to believe that when everyone shares their worldview it will solve all of our problems. Perhaps if people would actually do something to improve the world instead of trying to promote their ideology as the way to solve problems, said problems could be solved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
These discussions are fascinating to watch. People post, often without realizing how much we are saying about ourselves. No exceptions to that, I'll include myself.

In particular, though, the religious fundamentalists are a fascinating case study. Not to make this sound like watching monkeys in a zoo, but many of them don't have a clue why they're saying what they're saying. They're so accustomed to group-think and story-think that they literally lose touch with reality, like the current occupant of the White House, among many others. They need a story, but once they have it, and tell it to each other, reinforce it in each other, laugh, hoot and holler about it --- in their eyes, they have reality, the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. And then they get really stupid, impossible to discuss or reason with. I'm hardly the first one to have noticed.

Cases in point:

Matthew wore a dress

Matthew knew all about Paszkiewicz and was out to nail him

Matthew's sister had Paszkiewicz as her teacher

Matthew manipulated the recordings

I don't have a busy law practice

Strife and I have a "relationship"

Etc.

None of these things is true, but that didn't stop the fundies from proclaiming them to be true. The point is that they are conditioned to do it by what their religious training instructs them to do.

They're under a lot of pressure.

1. The story they are committed to support is ridiculous in many particulars;

2. In many particulars it is inconsistent any decent set of values, which they claim are important to them;

3. They are committed to supporting the story letter for letter;

4. The story is of ultimate importance, that is, essential to everyone's eternal fate.

Well, the books of the Bible tell a story, so let's follow that example. Humor is a good release when stopping and really thinking things through carefully won't get us where we want to be. So it isn't a very far step to making up stories for the purposes of ridicule, and insisting that those stories are absolutely true. You don't have to think about it, it's easy, and --- hey! --- it's absolutely true because we just said so! Hallelujah! isn't religion marvelous!

And that is literally as deeply as some of these people seem to think about pretty much anything.

The point of raising this topic isn't to complain. If I was self-interested I wouldn't raise the topic at all, because this is just going to generate another round of nastiness.

The point is not to criticize religion generally. I respect religion and in fact consider myself deeply religious. I am criticizing what I believe to be a distortion of religion.

The point of the topic is that it is important for the community to see and understand the fundamentalist mind. It has done too much damage to our country and our community to ignore.

As always, respectful and intelligent discussion is welcomed.

How can someone have an intelligent argument with someone like you who blatantly comes here and repeatedly lies over and over? You have no respect and deserve less than that. For months you post over and over about your scorn of religion yet you quote it like it was your own. How can you sit there and type this saying that you respect religion when you dread someone saying there might be the possibility of a god. Religion has helped comfort more people throughout this world than you can fathom. All you want to do is bring out the bad facts but avoid the good. I guess feeding, healing, and helping the poor is something you will never understand. Whoever scorned you from Church really has left you a very bitter and miserably man. If you ever came off that mountain you hold yourself high on you just might see it. If there is an antichrist, I am sure it will come in the shape of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
Like inventing WMDs out of whole cloth to justify an unwinnable war in a country that didn't attack us. Like asserting the freedom to own slaves, one of the justifications for which was that the Bible said slavery was OK. Like completely looking the other way when a supposedly conservative president abandons most of what made conservatism a credible governmental philosophy.

When you premise your thinking on an arbitrary authority instead of basing your thinking on the facts, and when you declare things to be true because you want them to be true, you inevitably run into trouble sooner or later. Those are two hallmarks of fundamentalist thinking.

I'm far from the only person making these points. Reasonable people have always rolled their eyes at religious fundamentalists who think their way is the only way. The only difference now is that some of us are starting to be more vocal about it because we see the damage it has done.

It the same like telling everyone of your son's innocence yet knowing that he was wrong to try to correct a wrong that was done to you a long time ago.

You are now being more vocal about it because of the damage religion has done? Now look who is calling the kettle black. It was your own scorn of it that cause you to send your son tape recorded in hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
Many Christians agree that the hard-line fundamentalists drain the life out of religion, turning it from an instrument of good into an instrument of evil. Read, for example, the books by John Shelby Spong and a great many other recent authors.

How can you possible think you know what Christians think when all you do it try to tear down the fabric that holds them all together. You need to get your head out of the books instead of quoting some author you read and really see what they think. You might learn something for a change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest

9/11 happened only a handful of years ago. Have you forgotten already how dangerous fundamentalism is?

And don't even try the "but that just means Islam is evil!" Bullshit. One visit to Fundies Say the Darndest Things and you'll find a ton of quotes by Christians on several of their own forums saying things that reflect a mindset just as dangerous.

Strife, the best example of the damage caused by fundamentalism you can come up with is 911?

I already gave the traditional list of fudamentals of the faith in an earlier post.

How about a legitimate example of a great evil Christian Fundamentalism has caused. Please don't include an example involving an idivididual. That would be unfair. Their are individuals in every group that are bad examples. As an Atheist, I'm sure you remember the evils foisted on the world by such noted individual Atheists like Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse Tung.

Come on. Start with the Crusades and the Inquisitions, both of which sprang directly from religious literalism. Look all over the world and you'll see cultures at each other's throats because they belong to different religions, which they take literally. Get real.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
How can someone have an intelligent argument with someone like you who blatantly comes here and repeatedly lies over and over? You have no respect and deserve less than that.  For months you post over and over about your scorn of religion yet you quote it like it was your own. How can you sit there and type this saying that you respect religion when you dread someone saying there might be the possibility of a god.  Religion has helped comfort more people throughout this world than you can fathom.  All you want to do is bring out the bad facts but avoid the good.  I guess feeding, healing, and helping the poor is something you will never understand.  Whoever scorned you from Church really has left you a very bitter and miserably man.  If you ever came off that mountain you hold yourself high on you just might see it.  If there is an antichrist, I am sure it will come in the shape of you.

In other words, you have nothing to say in response so you resort to this. It isn't even accurate. He's telling you he respects religion, but has a problem with some aspects of it. So do a lot of us. You'll never understand this if you don't try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you possible think you know what Christians think when all you do it try to tear down the fabric that holds  them all together. You need to get your head out of the books instead of quoting some author you read and really see what they think.    You might learn something for a change.

I'm a Christian and I think that fundamentalists are a curse upon Christianity.

But then I'm probably not the "right" kind of Christian. I don't go in for this eternal punishment.

And there are things that bother me about omnipotence and omniscience. If a child is abused, God would know it and could stop it. But that does not occur.

People argue that God allows these actions since He gave us the gift of free will. But there are many instances in scripture where through His intervention free will is overridden or claimed to be overriden in history such as the Battle of Lepanto.

If you saw a child abused, could prevent it but did not, would you be commended by saying "Who am I to override the free will of the abuser"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Guest
Well, let's see--last I heard, Bill Gates was an atheist, and it seems he's given more money to charity than any entity, Christian or not, ever. :)

Also, Kearny's own library's computers were bought with a grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and I think they're going to be upgraded soon with another 'shot' of the same grant.

Yes, Bill Gates is a wonderful and generous man. But, I still don't know of any atheist organizations ( that would mean a group of atheists) who provide for the needy in our community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...