Vote For Bush

[Guest Radagast]

I can't help but wonder how many crazy people we could have rooted out worldwide if we had just used the billions and billions of dollars we are currently dumping down a dark hole called Iraq. I wonder how many spys we could have bought to find, infiltrate and destroy these groups of nut cases that are trying to kill us?

The war in Iraq has created more nut cases who want to kill us, so to contend that getting rid of Saddam has made us safer is just a very bad joke. Bush & Co are out telling the same lies over and over again as they stump for re-election. I guess if you keep repeating some thing you can somehow make it true.

Right now the WMDs are located in the White House and they have to be removed.

[Guest Guest]

Bush is not my favorite guy, he wasn't before Sept 11th either. But he had a choice to make, and at the time, made a choice we as Americans wanted.

We were hurt, scared, vulnerable, and terrified that this could happen again. We wanted to hold someone responsible, we needed someone's head on a silver platter. And as our President we expected Bush to do something. We all felt a sigh of relief when they were sent to GET THE BAD GUYS!

Bin Ladin was no where to be found, so Bush went after the next best thing. Don't get me wrong, Hussein is a very bad person and should be taken down.

But seriously, who the hell are we to go in there and LIBERATE? And on top of it, there were no weapons of mass destruction. These people don't want us there, can't we get that message when every other day one of the "good guys" are being held hostage and killed. Once we knew there were no weapons we should been out of there. Our soldiers are being killed over there everyday and for what? Enough is enough, bring them home where they belong. Bush screwed up, we all know it now. Don't make matters worse.

I listened to Kerry the other night and yes, he is convincing, but they all are in the beginning. Bush's mess up will help Kerry in the polls this November, no doubt about it.

[Guest Guest]

As I read these posts I can't believe how dense and short sighted you people are. Live and let live is a fantasy. Sometimes you gotta stick your foot in someones as* to get the point across. What a bunch of little girls!

[Guest Loki]

Radagast my friend, you suffer from selective memory or in this case amnesia, (that's when you forget things that have happened.) In the early 90's, the Congress in their infinite wisdom, changed the game for the intelligence gathering community. We were no longer allowed to hire those "shady characters" who may actually be able to provide useful and ACTIONABLE intelligence. John Kerry was involved, and even sponsored a bill to cut BILLIONS out of the intelligence budgets. This is most certainly not John Kerry's fault, however you'll forgive me for not believing he is all of a sudden going to create an efficient work environment within these organizations.

I also refuse to hold George W. Bush solely responsible for "misleading the US" into war. As late as 2003, Kerry had claimed that WMD's existed and were in fact in Saddam's possession. He was joined by several prominent Democrats. So how, I ask rhetorically, can only one person who makes the same claim be a liar.

I hope that these facts in no way interfere with any future bitterness that you may drop on this site, but I look forward to any opinions you have.

Like you, in my opinion, the debate can rage on, but only with an open exchange of ideas can information be gained.

[Guest Guest]

I agree that sometimes you have to "stick your foot in someones a**" But how about the right A**!!!

Hussein should have been taken out, AS I SAID BEFORE, but why we're still there is my concern. We have no reason for being there. As far as I'm concerned our work there is finished.

As for "live and let live" your right, that is a fantasy. Did I imply it wasn't?

No one knows how Kerry will do if he wins, but we've all seen what Bush HAS done.

right or wrong, he had a choice to make and he made it! Whether we agreed with it or not, its been done. Our work in Iraq was finished when Hussein was taken out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that we should let them rebuild on their own. We did our part! Bush leaving our troops there is a big mistake. We are not welcome there.

[Guest Guest]

I agree that sometimes you have to "stick your foot in someones a**" But how about the right A**!!!

Hussein should have been taken out, AS I SAID BEFORE, but why we're still there is my concern. We have no reason for being there. As far as I'm concerned our work there is finished.

As for "live and let live" your right, that is a fantasy. Did I imply it wasn't?

No one knows how Kerry will do if he wins, but we've all seen what Bush HAS done.

right or wrong, he had a choice to make and he made it! Whether we agreed with it or not, its been done. Our work in Iraq was finished when Hussein was taken out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that we should let them rebuild on their own. We did our part! Bush leaving our troops there is a big mistake. We are not welcome there.

we're in Iraq because we needed a base of operations for our military in the middle east. Afganistan is land locked which makes it difficult for operations and supplies. There's no question, we should be there. The only question is why the Europeans ALWAYS turn the other way when we need something from them. Yes Bush is arrogant and aggressive but the Europeans have always been jealous of this very young country with more power than all of them put together.They are the true enemy. This would have been a done deal had all the countries pulled together but they always bury their heads in the sand and refuse to get involved. The U.S. has helped more people in the world than any other country. We are not the bad guys. Just compare the money contributed from the U.S. with the deadbeats in Europe. If it wasn't for the U.S., we would ALL be speaking German. You don't get rid of a dictator and then get out so some other nut can take over. We stayed in Germany for years after Hitler got the boot. These are Islamic extremist we're fighting now, they look forward to dying. They have to be dealt with, and if they want to die, I say we do all we can to help meet their maker. Have you noticed we haven't had any terrorist acts in this country lately? That's because they're very busy looking over their shoulder.

[Guest Radagast]

Radagast my friend, you suffer from selective memory or in this case amnesia, (that's when you forget things that have happened.) In the early 90's, the Congress in their infinite wisdom, changed the game for the intelligence gathering community. We were no longer allowed to hire those "shady characters" who may actually be able to provide useful and ACTIONABLE intelligence. John Kerry was involved, and even sponsored a bill to cut BILLIONS out of the intelligence budgets. This is most certainly not John Kerry's fault, however you'll forgive me for not believing he is all of a sudden going to create an efficient work environment within these organizations.

I also refuse to hold George W. Bush solely responsible for "misleading the US" into war. As late as 2003, Kerry had claimed that WMD's existed and were in fact in Saddam's possession. He was joined by several prominent Democrats. So how, I ask rhetorically, can only one person who makes the same claim be a liar.

I hope that these facts in no way interfere with any future bitterness that you may drop on this site, but I look forward to any opinions you have.

Like you, in my opinion, the debate can rage on, but only with an open exchange of ideas can information be gained.

Ah Loki... will we ever agree...

Yes Congress did end some of the fun and games the CIA and those 'shady' folks in the Pentagon were up to for so long. However, supporting brutal dictatorships in South and Central America just because they're our pals isn't something the United States should be doing..or do you think helping AH's like Pinochet kill people simply because they speak up against him was, as Martha would say, "a good thing"? That is what Congress put a stop to, not trying to pay money for good intelligence against our enemies as I'm suggesting might have been.

It is true that Kerry, as part of a deficit reduction bill in 1994, proposed cuts in agriculture, commerce, administration and intelligence. Also, in 1994, the 'Commission on the Roles and Capabilities of the US Intelligence Community' (Aspin Committee) issued a unanimous report recommending cuts in Intelligence spending accross the board. Some of the members of that committee were Paul Wolfowitz (now Cheney's right hand in the Defence Department). along with Sen. Spector ® PA & Sen. Warner ®..... so let's just say Kerry was in mixed company.

Kerry,also, did join the chorus when Bush & Co were out misrepresenting the Iraqi threat for their own insane purposes...that's true. Ya know... as Americans I think we all want to rally round the President when we're in trouble and have to defend ourselves and abusing that trust sinks very low. Since then two separate accounts by two different people who were close to Bush in 2001 have said that he only wanted to hear the intelligence that defended his goal of going after Saddam. Others were shut out. Oh!... I'm sorry... I guess Clarke and O'Neill were just had an agenda and were liars... Gotta stick to the party line now...right?

Are you going to tell me that as a US Senator, Kerry had the same access to intelligence that Bush did as President? Of course not! If Bush didn't lie he sure twisted the truth beyond all recognition.... or was he just stupid? You decide.

[Guest kardinals]

As the topic starter i would like to ad a couple of links to show you the real john kerry. With what i see on the video which is about 12 mins long on his flip flops. I will be more scared of him to run the country then anyone else. Also for all of you that loved and raved about the micheal moore film. Somewhere on the GOP website you will find what he said about us americans. All of you who watched the movie made him even more correct. Sad Sad Sad world out there.

www.kerryoniraq.com

www.gop.com

[Guest Guest 1]

I am deciding on Kerry.

[Guest Loki]

Yes, I am saying that Kerry, as a member of the Senate Intelligence Comm., had access to the same info as Bush. I also saw Kerry on Larry King claiming that he hadn't been briefed about national security in a while. "They wanted to brief me, I just haven't had the time." Now, that is not a direct quote, but the context is accurate. What, he had something more pressing? If he gets elected, can we hope for the same attention to detail.

As for Richard Clarke, Tommy Franks has said that Clarke had NEVER given him one piece of actionable intelligence. Perhaps Franks is a liar. A lot of people need to be lying for you to prove your point, Radagast. Not exactly an argument from strength.

Now, let's discuss the "Swift Boat ads". According to the Dems, Rassmen (sic?) needs to be taken at his word, and these other 13 men are LIARS. Their claim is that none of the 13 served on Kerry's boat, and as such have ZERO credibility. So, my next obvious question, is how Kerry managed to get an ARMY green beret assigned to his boat? The answer, of course, is that he didn't. It is just two different points of view.

Remember, there are actually THREE sides to every argument my side, your side, and the truth. Which usually lies in between.

As for the cleansing of the Intelligence agencies, I agree, Kerry can not be held accountable by himself. Many were involved and share a part of the blame, but Kerry deserves his share, not more and not less than anyone else involved in the vote.

The difference between you and I is that if a Republican makes a mistake, the same rules apply. With you, there are degrees of right and wrong, depending on one's voting record.

[Guest Guest]

THERE IS ONLY ONE CHOICE BUSH ALL THE WAY

[Guest SDem_Guest]

As for Kerry's flip-flops on certain decisions...get over it. Are we all so perfect that we haven't ever changed our minds? C'mon. Let's get real here. And, by the way, the human tendency to change one's mind seems to be the only thing that the Bush camp is using against Kerry.

As for all of you who are so convinced that Bush is doing a good job and is more than able to lead the country....let's remember some of the things he has said in recent weeks to the press..and, no, I'm not talking about his recent quote that "the terrorists will stop at nothing to harm our nation and neither will we." Again, people are human and sometimes misspeak.

I'm talking about his answer to the question of how he sees the relationship between the sovereignty of the United States government and the Native American reservations. His answer "Well, that's a relationship between two sovereign things...each of which is sovereign in its own way..." The journalists were hysterical and one camera man even caught Bush's press secertary with his face in his hands. And we want this guy to represent our nation on the world stage?? My thought is that Mr. Bush doesn't know what sovereign means. That's pretty sad that the leader of the free world doesn't have a basic vocabulary.

[Guest Radagast]

Yes, I am saying that Kerry, as a member of the Senate Intelligence Comm., had access to the same info as Bush. I also saw Kerry on Larry King claiming that he hadn't been briefed about national security in a while. "They wanted to brief me, I just haven't had the time." Now, that is not a direct quote, but the context is accurate. What, he had something more pressing? If he gets elected, can we hope for the same attention to detail.

As for Richard Clarke, Tommy Franks has said that Clarke had NEVER given him one piece of actionable intelligence. Perhaps Franks is a liar. A lot of people need to be lying for you to prove your point, Radagast. Not exactly an argument from strength.

Now, let's discuss the "Swift Boat ads". According to the Dems, Rassmen (sic?) needs to be taken at his word, and these other 13 men are LIARS. Their claim is that none of the 13 served on Kerry's boat, and as such have ZERO credibility. So, my next obvious question, is how Kerry managed to get an ARMY green beret assigned to his boat? The answer, of course, is that he didn't. It is just two different points of view.

Remember, there are actually THREE sides to every argument my side, your side, and the truth. Which usually lies in between.

As for the cleansing of the Intelligence agencies, I agree, Kerry can not be held accountable by himself. Many were involved and share a part of the blame, but Kerry deserves his share, not more and not less than anyone else involved in the vote.

The difference between you and I is that if a Republican makes a mistake, the same rules apply. With you, there are degrees of right and wrong, depending on one's voting record.

The CIA and various Pentagon controled intellegence organizations report directly to the President, as it shold be. Presidents, traditionally have told Congress what they want them to know when they want them to know it. So to say that Kerry has the same access to intel as Bush is nonsense on the face of it.

As far as the briefings by Tom Ridge go (which was the one in question on Larry King), I think many of us are getting a little tired of the slipshod way this Administration is handling National Security. After Tom 'Chicken Little' Ridge gave another in a long line of suspect terror warnings last week, we come to find out that the intel was four years old and in their haste to release it thay may have outed a mole who was working within Osama's network for the Pakistani's. Nice move guys! Maybe Kerry wants to wait until we have somebody we can trust to tell us the truth in charge of Homeland Security before he puts any stock in their 'briefings'.

If Tommy Franks has more credibility for you than Richard Clarke and Paul O'Niell than you must tell me why. OH.... I forgot, he 'won' the war in Iraq. Clarke and O'Niell were both in Bush's inner circle. They both said the same thing, Bush was planning to go after Saddam BEFORE 9/11. They both said that after 9/11 he wanted to blame Iraq for the attack on America. These guys aren't shmoes off the street. Clarke served under Bush I and Clinton. O'Neill was Bush's Treasury Secretary. If Bush's MO was to listen only to the folks who agreed with him way back then, what makes you think anything changed during his promo to War in Iraq in late 2002? So he sends his minions to the Congress and they tell Congress what Bush wants them to hear.

As far as the swift boat ads go, all I can tell you is follow where their money is coming from. Right wing nuts, in this case, who's history goes back to connections to the John Birch Society and the Nazi Party have fund most of the 'Swiftys' smeer campaign. The 'Swiftys' under another name also attacked John McCain during the 2000 Republican primary. You think maybe they're working for a Bush reelection? or is that just another example of my bitterness?

I, for one, don't believe that the attempt at 'cleansing' of the intelligence agencies back in the 1990's was a bad thing. There was and still is a harmful duplication and competition between these agencies. Bush's tendency to rely on Douglas Feith and his band of merry men over at Defence has been a major contributor to putting us in the mess we are now in with Iraq. A streamlined intelligence service costs less and is more efficent.

Loki, face it, you're a Republican. The only difference between you and I is that we are on two different sides. I'd like to think that we assess the available facts and simply come to different conclusions. If I didn't believe that, I would never have responded to you posts.

It's a small difference, however, but my view is that the 'truth' lies apart for one's opinion and not simply between the two oponions we have. No matter how much knowledge of the facts you may have, you can't know everything. The only thing I know for sure is that I"M RIGHT!!!

[Guest Loki]

And not so long ago, Al Gore mistakenly mentioned the phrase "E Pluribus Unum", and claimed from "one many". It was a mistake, nothing more nothing less. The difference being that the media gave HIM a complete pass.

Do not blindly follow what you are told, if you think Bush is an idiot, that's fine. BUT, do a little research into Gore's academic record, you will be surprised; I know I was.

[Guest Guest 1]

Guys stop trying to prove how much you know,,ok you're smart. It's really simple...time for a change. I don;t know any young people who are supporting Bush, probably because they have to fight in this so called saving Irag from itself.

[Guest SDem_Guest]

Loki - to be honest - I never liked Gore so I wouldn't be a bit surprised at his academic history. Also, I do remember the time when Gore claimed to have "invented the internet." The press had a field day. Politicians will always be in the claws of the media. It's the nature of the beast.

I am just really worried about the fact that people laugh at Bush and many more people (world leaders, etc) don't take him seriously at all. It's OK to be a "good 'ol boy from Texas" but my opinion is that we don't need one in the White House. At least not one who acts the part as well as Bush does.

And I don't blindly follow what I'm told. I follow American government very carefully and come to my decisions based on my research and not on what other people say, many of whom are not at all objective.

[Guest Guest]

Guys stop trying to prove how much you know,,ok you're smart. It's really simple...time for a change. I don;t know any young people who are supporting Bush, probably because they have to fight in this so called saving Irag from itself.

I'm a young person, and I support Bush.

[Guest Not a Bush Fan]

> > RESUME

> > GEORGE W. BUSH

> > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue

> > Washington, DC 20520

> >

> > EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

> >

> > Law Enforcement: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for

>driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my

> driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been

> "lost" and is not available.

>

> Military: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused

>to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining

>the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

> College: I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a

> cheerleader.

> >

> PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.

>

> ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

>

> I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, >making

> Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston

replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

> >

> With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's

> appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by

> over 500,000 votes.

> >

> > ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

> >

> > - I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal

> > record. I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week. I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury. I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history. I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period. I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the

>U.S. stock market. In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost

> their jobs and that trend continues every month. I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her. I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President. I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations. My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends,

Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

> >

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica

Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history. I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

> >

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history. I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history. I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy

in the history of the United States government. I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history. I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

> >

> > - I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention. I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

> >

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President

since the advent of television. I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

> >

I garnered the most sympathy ever for the U.S. after the World Trade

Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated

country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

> >

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously

protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record or protests against any person in the history of mankind. I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.

> >

> > - I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families in wartime. In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

> >

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security. I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

> >

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice.

> >

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

> >

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view. All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

> >

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

> >

> > PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004! I WILL NEED A JOB BADLY IF I DO NOT GET RE-ELECTED. PLEASE HELP!

> >

> > PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY VOTER YOU KNOW!

> >

Note: Most of this information is of public record, except, of course, for the records that have been lost or sealed.

[Guest Loki]

First, its "what did he know, and when did he know it," and now we are going to accuse him of being to cautious. If they feel I need to know, I want to know. If Kerry wins, and he reports what he believes to be a threat, I will be grateful and I won't question motives.

As for Franks, I give him the benefit of the doubt, not because of his military victories. But, because members from both sides of the aisle, former Pres. Clinton, former Sec. of State Albright, and numerous others have made the same claim. If Clarke flies in the face of their opinions, then he is the one presenting a new opinion, and the burden of proof lies with him. I do not feel he proved his point.

As for European leaders, I truly don't care what they think about Bush, or America in general. I would most certainly prefer to not have to "go it alone," but these people would kill you and me tomorrow if the had the opportunity. If Europe thinks that these terrorists can be APPEASED, then they are destined to repeat the mistakes of Neville Chamberlain.

The Declaration of Independance promises us "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Seems to me, that these inalienable rights are prioritized. If you can not secure life, the chance of securing liberty and the pursuit of happiness is ABSOLUTE ZERO. This is only my opinion, and you can disagree. But, I am very comfortable in my principles on this, as I hope all of you are as well. I believe we have essentially "agreed to disagree," just hoping to clarify my position.

[Guest Loki]

But, Radagast, your streak of being right must have come to an end, because, alas I am never WRONG!!! LOL.

[Guest Guest]

If George W. Bush is the best and brighest we can hope for, we need to pray real hard!

[Guest independent]

If George W. Bush is the best and brighest we can hope for, we need to pray real hard!

Start praying

[Guest Loki]

To "Not a Bush fan",

Will it ever stop with the 2000 election. Several newspapers looked into the election and found under all circumstances, specifically those requested by Gore, Bush received more votes. If this was not the case, don't you think these papers editorial pages would have daily reminders of their findings. Because I know I would.

As for the Supreme Court, they were upholding election laws. The FLORIDA Supreme Court might have tried to steal the election, but that is a different matter. Curious that Janet Reno, the most confused of our national legal officers, would later run for election from this state.

As for Gore winning the popular vote, this point is valid. However, at the time of the election, the process calls for an Electoral College. If you feel this law needs to be changed, great; therein lies your fight. But to suggest that a presidency is invalid because of your applied standards to support your case is, quite simply, nonsensical.

I won't comment on Bush indiscretions before he became president, because we have all done stupid things in our youth. Yes, even some of your fellow Democrats. It really isn't that big a deal. DWI is against the law, but so is driving off a bridge with your female passenger and leaving her for dead. Yet, how many times has that gentleman been RE-ELECTED. If you show me a "perfect' candidate, I don't care which party he's running for, I WILL show you a liar. No one is perfect.

Except Radagast and myself, of course.

[Guest fanofbush]

If George W. Bush is the best and brighest we can hope for, we need to pray real hard!

If Kerry gets in you won't be able to pray!

[Guest SDem_Guest]

Amen!!