Observer, the 2007-07-03 letter about Mr. P.

[Guest Patriot]

Oneellama, I agree, your post was very good indeed.

I have only one small nit to pick, and that's with "It's high time the 'moderates' underneath the Christian umbrella took a look at the tacit support of religious extremism that persists there, under the guise of 'tolerance.'"

No kidding.  But what do you think I'm doing here, if not this?  They're not getting any support from me, tacit or otherwise.  On the contrary, I'm here and elsewhere, posting and protesting away, giving money, and talking it up!  And I've not been alone; in the last couple of days, for example, a new poster named Foger has joined me.

I do agree, however, that we moderate and liberal Christians have been indecently supine for far too long.

Leigh Williams

Austin, Texas

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"A new poster named Foger has joined me" ??? LMAO. A new dynamic duo has arrived on the scene, Mumbo and Dumbo. "Indecently supine" ??? You have to be gay to write something like that.

[Guest Guest]

Our agenda is the Constitution and the quality of education. Inappropriate statements by a teacher should be corrected. That has not happened. Until it does, we will continue to pursue this.

For the gazillionth time, a teacher was completely out of control. Matthew caught him and provided undeniable proof. You just don't like the way it's working out.

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I was just wondering if you could please clarify where you said that a "gazillionth time". Since you are boasting on this web that you do not want anyone not telling the truth, I can only assume that you can back that up. I am sure you wouldn't be lying here, would you? Cause if anyone was lieing here, that would be wrong and it is incorrect and should be brought up on public display if someone made an error. Isn't that correct, Mr. LaClair?

How much is a gazillion, exactly? --

Million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, sextillion, septillion, octillion, novillion, decillion . . . lessee, a decillion is:

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Strife767]

"Incredible post" ??  If that impressed you, then my 2 year old recommends SpongeBob.  He may put you in rapture. LOL

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Is your life so empty that you have to spent time deliberately typing out entire posts just to make such inane, childish comments? Anyone out of the sixth grade would be more insulted that you thought a comment like that would insult them.

[Strife767]

I was just wondering if you could please clarify where you said that a "gazillionth time".  Since you are boasting on this web that you do not want anyone not telling the truth, I can only assume that you can back that up. I am sure you wouldn't be lying here, would you?  Cause if anyone was lieing here, that would be wrong and it is incorrect and should be brought up on public display if someone made an error.  Isn't that correct, Mr. LaClair?

How much is a gazillion, exactly? --

Million, billion, trillion, quadrillion, quintillion, sextillion, septillion, octillion, novillion, decillion . . . lessee, a decillion is:

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

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Wow, grow the F**K up. It's an expression.

Here's a tip so that you don't waste more of your life: there is no straw, and no camel with a broken back. You'd better stop looking.

[Stixx3969]

"A new poster named Foger has joined me" ???  LMAO.  A new dynamic duo has arrived on the scene, Mumbo and Dumbo.  "Indecently supine" ??? You have to be gay to write something like that.

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Wow Patriot,

I must say that I am impressed. Everytime I think that you couldn't possibly be more snide, childish and just plain mean you manage to surprise me. I suspect however that you would'nt have the guts to say these things to a persons face. Maybe you should let you 2 year-old post for you as I'm sure that they would show a greater level of maturity.

[an American in Texas]

"A new poster named Foger has joined me" ???  LMAO.  A new dynamic duo has arrived on the scene, Mumbo and Dumbo.  "Indecently supine" ??? You have to be gay to write something like that.

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Patrat just dislikes me, folks. And while I appreciate the defense, Stixx, we'd really do better to ignore him. He probably won't go away, but we shouldn't waste our time on him.

Because, really, what can we possibly say to someone who thinks that calling a middle-aged mother of four "gay" is a witty comeback? Obviously he's a bigot -- for civilized people, "gay" is not a slur. We'll never be able to teach him to run with the big dogs. He's just not equipped in temperment or intellect.

Leigh

[Guest Guest]

I would appreciate it if you gave a few examples of what you consider to be "more extreme anti-religion views espoused on the forum." I ask, would you put any of my current or past posts (including this one) in that category? What would qualify as a "more extreme pro-religious view espoused on this forum"?

I'd like to calibrate where you're coming from, particularly given that you follow up that "more extreme" phrase with a sentence that features "decent God-fearing folks." Christians often use that phrase as if there is an equal sign between "decent" and "God-fearing." The root of this whole issue in Kearny is that there was too much projection of the "God-fearing" part onto students in a public school, there continues to be too much protection of those doing it, and too much abuse going on against those with the guts to put it all out for Kearny and the rest of the world to confront. Perhaps the "silent majority" IF YOU WILL is those of us who find fear to be a pretty abominable basis for laying claim to "decent" moral behavior!!! This is precisely the kind of forum to raise that point of view. Hey, even if we're a MINORITY, maybe that makes it more important!

If those "decent God-fearing folks" of Kearny are finding their beliefs mutually exclusive with supporting Matthew, then JUST PERHAPS the discomfort they are feeling is a VERY GOOD THING and long overdue. Conciousness-raising rarely comes without discomfort. Forget "unintended" consequences -- let's go for intended. It's high time a lot of Christians did some real soul-searching about the impact of their self-righteousness, their arrogance, their prevailing attitude of superiority, and their pathological propensity to evangelize their views onto others, oblivious to -- or unaffected by -- any objections by the recipients. It's high time the "moderates" underneath the Christian umbrella took a look at the tacit support of religious extremism that persists there, under the guise of "tolerance."

And please, dear readers, resist the temptation at this point to tell me to let go of my anger, and you will pray for me. Don't ask, "Why are some atheists getting so ANGRY?" Try reading Letter to a Christian Nation for a few clues, if the posts on this blog aren't sufficient.

I can speak directly to how this kind of thing plays out for a child. When I was in public school, one of my teachers held daily readings from the Bible, and went from student to student with the clear expectation that NO STUDENT WOULD DECLINE to read, though she gave lip service to it being an option. (Remember Mr. P.'s comment about whether anybody objected to the discussion, then he heads right back to eternal damnation?) Mine was a public school! I told my parents what was going on. We had some long, difficult discussions about whether to "go public" with the problem (occurring not just in my class, but in my siblings' as well). They did not, because of the risk of retaliation from our "decent God-fearing" neighbors. Did that teacher have support from the students? YOU BET! Did she have support from the parents? YOU BET! Sometimes they were THERE IN THE CLASSROOM! Did the vast majority of the people think she was a great teacher? YOU BET! So did the principal! Did that make her actions MORAL or LEGAL? She clearly believed the former, even if she ignored the latter!

My parents were NOT meek people -- -- they were realists, in a different decade. But that was THEN you say. Well, I've been in public school classrooms within the past two months where a teacher asked students to publicly identify their religion to their classmates. Wonderful for the majority, and maybe even for some of the minority, were they so inclined. But where is the recognition that this is inappropriate? A lot of us live in Kearny, in one form or another. Many, many Christians just don't get that, or they don't care. Well, maybe times are a-changin.

I've been reading this blog since the very beginning, and been an infrequent contributor since December. If you haven't yet done so, go back and read the initial threads, and see how this discussion has developed. Do a little comparison of the posts that legitimately responded to the legal and ethical issues raised by Mr. L. consistently from the beginning, versus the diversionary crap and hand grenades that came flying in, and still do with daily regularity.

I have to say, I've already been through "calm." In the face of what's flown on this site, I'm above my hip-boots with "calm." I've promoted "carefully reasoned" (check my old posts) -- and though you may disagree, I still do. But, by golly, after reading hundreds of posts, I think a little ill temper just might be justified. I'm amazed Mr. L. has stayed as conciliatory as he has. Yes, he's shown that "carefully reasoned" can still pack a punch, despite the spontaneous and outright hateful responses.

The REAL debate about the Establishment Clause can't be "poisoned" by either atheist or fundamentalist anger. It's in the legal record, for those willing to do the research, and it will play out in the courts -- as long as administrators like those at KHS and the BOE and teachers like Mr. P. shirk responsibility. Maybe not this time, not this episode. But, frankly, I now hope Mr. L. has the resources and the guts to add this case to that legal record. Slam the ACLU all you want; compare them to pedophile-apologists and Satanists; ultimately, the First Amendment gives Mr. L the right to have his grievances aired and considered, and if Mr. P, the administration, and the BOE don't get it, it comes down to the courts, not the anti-ACLU cranks. Either we are a nation of laws, or we aren't. Either the court decisions of the past mean something, or they don't. Either we are honest with ourselves about how the Christian majority imposes its heelprint on our politics, our culture, and our freedoms, or we aren't.

And for those of you who are already typing your response (as many have already in one way or another here or in emails to me in the past), "We're a Christian nation. Look at our money. Look at our pledge. Look ar our Christian founders. Don't like it? Go somewhere else!" I say, I was born here. I'm raising my family here. This is my country, dammit, I'm not goin' anywhere. Keep your dogma out of my childrens' classrooms. Keep your prayers out of my face; if you want to babble them silently to yourself, go right ahead. Follow the obligations you have as public servants, or face the consequences in court, as long as our system has a breath of honesty left in it. These things are worth standing up for. That, to me, is patriotism. Go get 'em, Matthew. Go get 'em, Mr. L. And if you want some help, drop me an email. You inspired me to get out of the "viewer" category through this blog; I hope you do the same for others.

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Wonderful eloquent post!

[Guest Guest]

"Incredible post" ?? If that impressed you, then my 2 year old recommends SpongeBob. He may put you in rapture. LOL

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Yes it was an incredible post. One can't be impressed by something one can't understand. SpongeBob is probably up to your speed.

[Guest Guest]

Oh Paul, I have to say it... I was quite impressed with the amount of people that showed up in your defense at the last board meeting...I would say about 8 people? That's a good amount. How many from kearny? About 2 or 3. I am sorry that you tried so hard getting people's attention and inviting them to go. So sad.... do you know how many people Paszkiewicz had to beg to go to that meeting? None...and how many people showed up? about 150, the majority form Kearny...Sorry Paul, you will have to try something else... 

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Paszkiewicz belongs to a conservative Church group where the Pastor (the one in charge of the whole Church, not P.) decides everything. I’ve seen their kind in action. Pastor decides group should demonstrate somewhere, they follow and demonstrate. Pastor decides someone in group did wrong and should apologize, the apology occurs instantly. All done in the name of the Lord.

The tapes show that Paszkiewicz lied about his statements in class. He has not apologized for his lying behavior. So, his Church supports this despicable conduct. For if the Church did not support this, he would apologize and their members would not be present at BOE meetings trying to drown out everyone else out.

The LaClairs aren’t just dealing with Paszkiewicz. They’re dealing with a cult that packs the BOE meetings.

There is nothing commendable about having a meeting where the vast majority show their ignorance of the Constitution and support a documented liar. A very sad reflection on Kearny.

[Guest Paul]

Patrat just dislikes me, folks.  And while I appreciate the defense, Stixx, we'd really do better to ignore him.  He probably won't go away, but we shouldn't waste our time on him.

Because, really, what can we possibly say to someone who thinks that calling a middle-aged mother of four "gay" is a witty comeback?  Obviously he's a bigot -- for civilized people, "gay" is not a slur.  We'll never be able to teach him to run with the big dogs.  He's just not equipped in temperment or intellect.

Leigh

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I agree with Leigh. So-called "Patriot" is on ignore unless and until he/she says something that merits a response. I should have done that a long time ago, in fact for a while I did. Thank you for bringing me back to my senses, Leigh.

[Guest Paul]

Paszkiewicz belongs to a conservative Church group where the Pastor (the one in charge of the whole Church, not P.) decides everything. I’ve seen their kind in action. Pastor decides group should demonstrate somewhere, they follow and demonstrate. Pastor decides someone in group did wrong and should apologize, the apology occurs instantly. All done in the name of the Lord.

The tapes show that Paszkiewicz lied about his statements in class. He has not apologized for his lying behavior. So, his Church supports this despicable conduct. For if the Church did not support this, he would apologize and their members would not be present at BOE meetings trying to drown out everyone else out.

The LaClairs aren’t just dealing with Paszkiewicz. They’re dealing with a cult that packs the BOE meetings.

There is nothing commendable about having a meeting where the vast majority show their ignorance of the Constitution and support a documented liar. A very sad reflection on Kearny.

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It is a sad reflection on that particular church and the people in it. That is a personal statement, I know, but their behavior is not even consistent with their own theology, much less our system of laws, and there is no excuse for it among the adults. They mean well, I believe, but if they are contribute productively to our democratic system, they must see their own behavior for what it is. Thank you for pointing this out.

[Bern]

It is a sad reflection on that particular church and the people in it. That is a personal statement, I know, but their behavior is not even consistent with their own theology, much less our system of laws, and there is no excuse for it among the adults. They mean well, I believe, but if they are contribute productively to our democratic system, they must see their own behavior for what it is. Thank you for pointing this out.

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You're welcome. Upgraded browser so I wasn't automatically logged in.

[Guest Guest]

It is a sad reflection on that particular church and the people in it. That is a personal statement, I know, but their behavior is not even consistent with their own theology, much less our system of laws, and there is no excuse for it among the adults. They mean well, I believe, but if they are contribute productively to our democratic system, they must see their own behavior for what it is. Thank you for pointing this out.

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Paul, you are taking a lot of liberties in assuming that the statements about Mr. P's parish are true and commenting on the parish (it's a sad reflection ...), as did the person who posted. Before we condemn an entire parish, shouldn't the poster provide some foundation for his or her comprehensive understanding of the entire dynamics of the dozens (if not hundreds - not sure of the size) of parishioners? Has the poster been a member of the church for any period of time? I get a sense that you normally don't jump to conclusions about people - but you seem to be doing so here. It would be the fair thing to do.

[Guest Paul]

Paul, you are taking a lot of liberties in assuming that the statements about Mr. P's parish are true and commenting on the parish (it's a sad reflection ...), as did the person who posted.  Before we condemn an entire parish, shouldn't the poster provide some foundation for his or her comprehensive understanding of the entire dynamics of the dozens (if not hundreds - not sure of the size) of parishioners?  Has the poster been a member of the church for any period of time?  I get a sense that you normally don't jump to conclusions about people - but you seem to be doing so here.  It would be the fair thing to do.

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I've seen quite a few of his fellow parishioners at Board meetings, and in particular I've heard his pastor rail against my son at one of those meetings in a most intemperate manner while the church members cheered him on and Paszkiewicz sat quietly and allowed it to happen.

[Bern]

Paul, you are taking a lot of liberties in assuming that the statements about Mr. P's parish are true and commenting on the parish (it's a sad reflection ...), as did the person who posted.  Before we condemn an entire parish, shouldn't the poster provide some foundation for his or her comprehensive understanding of the entire dynamics of the dozens (if not hundreds - not sure of the size) of parishioners?  Has the poster been a member of the church for any period of time?  I get a sense that you normally don't jump to conclusions about people - but you seem to be doing so here.  It would be the fair thing to do.

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I knew someone at work who is an associate pastor in his conservative Baptist Church. He got me involved with them for awhile.

They are required to follow the Church's line on social positions and any public statements made. When they protest something its understood that Church members wholly support Pastor's decision. Get out of line and you are severely dealt with. For how could anyone not obey the will of the Lord.

I did ask - is it possible a mistake can occur? Never. Pastor prays and gets guidance from the Lord. And they have regional meetings between Churches where everybody agrees with each other - so this is pretty standard.

Even though they were personally really nice, this lemming like behavior struck a raw nerve.

Maybe the Kearny Church is different and dissension is allowed. For me Guest, experience has created this assumption.