Hypocrisy, arrogance and self-entitlement

[Guest Guest]

More than eight months ago, I opened the topic called "The story doesn't make sense." As I and others have pointed out time and time again, not once has anyone denied the explicit point of the topic. The only negative responses have been personal and insulting.

Apparently, the people who have written these posts think it's perfectly OK to demean, insult, mock and degrade atheists, even though the topic isn't making an argument for atheism. Meanwhile, they insist not just on being respected as people but on having their beliefs respected. They don't respect atheists' beliefs, or atheists as people.

And that is the real point I've been making all along. There is some nasty bigotry in Kearny, and we've seen it displayed not just over these past eight months but for as long as I can remember, and I've lived here for decades.

Doing this may not change anyone's mind. But if you look closely, you see what is really going on in this town, and has been going on for a long time. And in towns like this one, all over the United States.

Happy holidays, all, however you may or may not celebrate them, and that includes a hearty "Merry Christmas" to all Christians, even though I truly believe that their narrative does not make sense. It's a pity that people aren't even open-minded enough, or perhaps courageous enough, to discuss it. Because in the end, we are all on this Earth together, and we cannot build or maintain the best society or the best culture on mere wishes.

[Guest Guest]

More than eight months ago, I opened the topic called "The story doesn't make sense." As I and others have pointed out time and time again, not once has anyone denied the explicit point of the topic. The only negative responses have been personal and insulting.

Apparently, the people who have written these posts think it's perfectly OK to demean, insult, mock and degrade atheists, even though the topic isn't making an argument for atheism. Meanwhile, they insist not just on being respected as people but on having their beliefs respected. They don't respect atheists' beliefs, or atheists as people.

And that is the real point I've been making all along. There is some nasty bigotry in Kearny, and we've seen it displayed not just over these past eight months but for as long as I can remember, and I've lived here for decades.

Doing this may not change anyone's mind. But if you look closely, you see what is really going on in this town, and has been going on for a long time. And in towns like this one, all over the United States.

Happy holidays, all, however you may or may not celebrate them, and that includes a hearty "Merry Christmas" to all Christians, even though I truly believe that their narrative does not make sense. It's a pity that people aren't even open-minded enough, or perhaps courageous enough, to discuss it. Because in the end, we are all on this Earth together, and we cannot build or maintain the best society or the best culture on mere wishes.

Tough love.

Truth.

[Guest Guest]

Faith is defined as confidence or trust in a being, object, living organism, deity, view, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, as well as confidence based on no scientific, plausible, testable, demonstrable evidence whatsoever. ^[1] The word faith is often^[quantify] used as a synonym for hope,^[2] for trust,^[3] or for belief.^[4]

^{So in my upbringing it didn't have to make sense. I am sorry that some so-called "Christian" have chosen to take their faith as an excuse to attack those who don't share their faith, religion, or lack of faith. That is not what I was taught.}

^{On the other side, as I read through the comments from both sides, people who have faith have been called stupid, uninformed...you can't complain that you (generically) have the arrogance and self-entitlement to believe that I should (or rather shouldn't) believe as you do.}

^{Happy New Year! :-)}

[Guest Guest]

Faith is defined as confidence or trust in a being, object, living organism, deity, view, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, as well as confidence based on no scientific, plausible, testable, demonstrable evidence whatsoever. ^%5B1%5D The word faith is often^[quantify] used as a synonym for hope,^%5B2%5D for trust,^%5B3%5D or for belief.^%5B4%5D

^{So in my upbringing it didn't have to make sense. I am sorry that some so-called "Christian" have chosen to take their faith as an excuse to attack those who don't share their faith, religion, or lack of faith. That is not what I was taught.}

^{On the other side, as I read through the comments from both sides, people who have faith have been called stupid, uninformed...you can't complain that you (generically) have the arrogance and self-entitlement to believe that I should (or rather shouldn't) believe as you do.}

^{Happy New Year! :-)}

Finally, a post with some content in it. Thank you. Please keep in mind, I didn't write all the posts that are critical of the Christian narrative.

I disagree with you, in part, and here is why. Paul Tillich, who was a Christian theologian, wrote a brilliant little book called .The Dynamics of Faith

You can probably order it on Amazon. It's very thin but it's brilliant. In it, he argued that the mainstream religions have denuded faith of its creative power, and turned it into a force for irresponsibility. We are all free to believe whatever we like, but if we do that, we sever the connection to reality. This is one of the most anti-spiritual things a person can do, because spirituality is all about being at one with What Is - with reality.

This has cost us dearly. The country we live in was founded, supposedly, on a principle of freedom. Yet slavery was not only accepted, it was written into the Constitution, and justified biblically. When we believe whatever we want to believe, that leads to irresponsible behavior. And when we cloak it with the imagined imprimatur of "almighty God," we can justify anything.

History is littered with atrocities committed in the name of religion. Yes, I know. religion didn't cause most of it. People can be greedy, hypocritical, you name it. But religion should lift us up to higher ground. That is not what the kind of faith you're talking about does. It only gives people an all-purpose excuse to do whatever they want.

I left Christianity out of a sense of moral duty. I may have the legal right to believe whatever I want but in my view, I do not have a moral right to do that. I have a moral obligation to examine the facts, think them through, and come to the most reasonable conclusion - or in many cases, withhold judgment, because there are many things we do not know.

So for me, I think it has to make sense, because if it doesn't, we are just indulging ourselves with whatever we want to believe. We can't live like that, so our religions shouldn't encourage it.

I truly hope you will continue this dialogue. If everyone approached it as you have, we might have accomplished something by now.

Your post is what I've spent eight months waiting for. Now let's continue the discussion. A real discussion about a topic that, obviously, is very important, here in Kearny and around the world.

Happy New Year to you, too. And well done!

Edited December 29, 2014 by KOTW
Link to book added by KOTW

[Guest Guest]

So in my upbringing it didn't have to make sense.

Great. Let's just indulge our fantasies.

What could go wrong?

[Guest Guest]

Faith is defined as confidence or trust in a being, object, living organism, deity, view, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, as well as confidence based on no scientific, plausible, testable, demonstrable evidence whatsoever. ^[1] The word faith is often^[quantify] used as a synonym for hope,^[2] for trust,^[3] or for belief.^[4]

^{So in my upbringing it didn't have to make sense. I am sorry that some so-called "Christian" have chosen to take their faith as an excuse to attack those who don't share their faith, religion, or lack of faith. That is not what I was taught.}

^{On the other side, as I read through the comments from both sides, people who have faith have been called stupid, uninformed...you can't complain that you (generically) have the arrogance and self-entitlement to believe that I should (or rather shouldn't) believe as you do.}

^{Happy New Year! :-)}

Finally! After eight months, someone finally admits it. It doesn't make sense, and they know it. But we're going to believe anyway, because we want to. Makes us feel good.

Hey, I got one for ya. There's a big-old Mega Millions jackpot up for drawing Monday night. I'm going to take my life savings and play the lottery! I had a dream - a dream, I tell ya - that the lottery wizard is going to make the lottery come up with the numbers on one of my cards.

"Yeah, but if the lottery wizard is going to make you win, why spend all your life savings? Just buy one card, and that will do it."

"No! The wizard works in mysterious ways. I told you, it doesn't have to make sense."

(Do you get it now? We can't live like that!)

[Guest Guest]

All those definitions and synonyms for faith are based on our culture's understanding of it. If our culture is messed up in its understanding of faith, the dictionary definitions of faith will be messed up too.

[Guest Guest]

Shut up, W****y.

Edited December 31, 2014 by KOTW
Content.

[Guest Guest]

It isn't just that the story doesn't make sense. The story is morally depraved. Christians would flip a fit if someone said that God's punishment had something to do with sex. But eternal torment in a fiery hell {Matthew 25; Revelation 20}, they'll accept as the natural order of things, perfectly OK, God's justice.

When you think like that, you can accept any manner of atrocity. And if you think that the Christian religion hasn't contributed to this, then I suggest you take another, closer, look at history.

The lives that have been turned upside down, or snuffed out altogether, because people wanted to indulge themselves in a wish, were real. The suffering endured in the name of Christianity was real.

You know better, so stop acting as though you don't.

You know it's a myth.

[Guest Guest]

Took more than eight months for even one Christian to admit the truth.

[Guest Guest]

Re post #3, three synonyms with faith:

Hope: The limitation here is that hope only looks to the future without doing anything about it. Faith is only useful when it acts in the present to help create the future. Mere hope does not act. Creative and useful Faith does.

Trust: This one is better. Trust is component of Faith, present in the here and now, as we display our trust through action. Confidence is another aspect of this, along with loyalty and reliance.

Belief: This one is the biggest problem, the one that has done so much damage. Seeing faith as synonymous with belief is engaging the in fallacy that we can create reality merely by believing that something is true. Mere belief, without action, accomplishes nothing. It may make us feel better but that too can cause problems, by lulling us into a false sense of security or pulling us into believing things that simply are not true. It can close the mind and make people rigid in their thoughts and actions, and thereby in their feelings. I've read Tillich's book, and he's right. Faith as merely, or mainly belief, is a huge problem, and has been for a very long time. And it is all the greater a problem because people don't think about it, and don't see why it's a problem. It feels good, so they want to do it. The word "indulgence" has been used. It's the right word, unfortunately.

I agree, though, #3 opened the door to an excellent discussion if people are willing to have it.

[Guest Kearny Christian]

Gee, If you're so smart, such a deep thinker, why is it that you're virtually alone in your atheist views? The vast majority of people believe in a deity, an intelligent designer if you will. Evolution is the perfect example of intelligent design. As an example, science has never been able to duplicate the human cell. Yet the atheist view is it evolved from pond scum. The greatest scientists in the world are unable to achieve something that was created from pond scum? Pond scum, this is what atheists cling to as proof of a godless universe.

No wonder you have so few subscribers to your false narrative.

[Guest Guest]

And this is why people hate atheists

[Guest Guest]

Thank you Post #4 - someone with whom I feel I can have an intelligent sharing of ideas without hurting or insulting each other's viewpoint.

For the rest who believe I must believe (or not) as you do, your hypocrisy, arrogance and self-entitlement makes you someone with whom I have no interest in wasting my time.

Really, isn't there a ball game on or something?

[Guest Guest]

Thank you Post #4 - someone with whom I feel I can have an intelligent sharing of ideas without hurting or insulting each other's viewpoint.

For the rest who believe I must believe (or not) as you do, your hypocrisy, arrogance and self-entitlement makes you someone with whom I have no interest in wasting my time.

Really, isn't there a ball game on or something?

Great, but why not advance the discussion - continue it, move it forward.

Again, Happy New Year to you. May you have joy and peace, and all good things. Let's continue talking.

[Guest Guest]

Intelligent Design deflates the entire theory behind atheism. Atheists hate the term "Intelligent Design" because it proves the existence of God. The entire atheist argument of evolution being happenstance or serendipity is shot down by intelligent design. Maybe that's why atheists are so angry, they know their theory of a godless evolution is full of holes.

[Guest Guest]

Gee, If you're so smart, such a deep thinker, why is it that you're virtually alone in your atheist views? The vast majority of people believe in a deity, an intelligent designer if you will. Evolution is the perfect example of intelligent design. As an example, science has never been able to duplicate the human cell. Yet the atheist view is it evolved from pond scum. The greatest scientists in the world are unable to achieve something that was created from pond scum? Pond scum, this is what atheists cling to as proof of a godless universe.

No wonder you have so few subscribers to your false narrative.

I will answer your questions as carefully and as thoughtfully as I can, even though you did not ask them that way.

I am not alone. I am not even alone here, so I don't know why you would say that.

Even if I was alone, all major changes in thinking - in science and in society - come about when someone has a new idea. At first it is rejected, and scorned. Then it is bitterly resisted. Then it is accepted, as though it was true all along.

People believe in a god - by whatever name - for several reasons. Focusing on the gods of Western monotheism, the stories surrounding them promise eternal life in paradise, at least for the select or chosen ones. These promises address our deepest fears, of suffering and death. So naturally people are inclined to believe them. They feel good. That does not make them true. If you choose to respond to this, please do it thoughtfully.

Your other comments, dismissing and mocking science, are worn out. They were never true in the first place, and they certainly are not true today. Just a few days ago, scientists reported yet more progress toward creating the primordial germ cells that go on to become sperm and egg. Things like this are happening all the time; but you ignore it because it is not what you wish to believe. And since that is how you have trained yourself to think, you see no problem with it. But in point of fact, only 33% of scientists believe in a god, according to a 2009 Pew survey. 73% of philosophers are atheists. So apparently, the more you think about the subject, the less likely you are to believe in a god. Unfortunately, if you are true to form, you will simply ignore the facts, because they are not what you wish to hear.

And as always, you ignore the question of whether the Christian narrative is true, or makes sense. You keep framing the issue as though everyone who didn't accept Christianity was an atheist. That's just not true. You know it's not true. Yet you keep saying it. By all appearances, you are the one with a personal problem, which is not to say that I don't have my own. We all do. But they aren't necessarily, or even probably, what you would like to think they are.

[Guest Guest]

Fine, let's continue talking. Let's start with the myth of a godless universe. Can you really think that humans evolved from pond scum ? Fossil records do not support that theory. And science has never been able to duplicate the basic human cell. There's no denying that science is not on your side.

[Guest Guest]

Fine, let's continue talking. Let's start with the myth of a godless universe. Can you really think that humans evolved from pond scum ? Fossil records do not support that theory. And science has never been able to duplicate the basic human cell. There's no denying that science is not on your side.

You're not the same person as put up post #4, and your argument is as easily swatted away as a fly with a fly-swatter. You think you're making a great argument, but you're really making no argument at all. You hold us to the standard of answering every question, definitively, based on facts. Meanwhile, you hold yourself to no standard at all. You make up this fantasy-god, and cannot tell us how or why he/she/it came to be. "Who created God?" We've asked that question here on KOTW, and you have no answer. So you have the same problem: you don't have a fact-based answer for the origins of all things, and neither do we.

However, we have a long history of scientific advancement, and answers to questions that we could not answer centuries ago, decades ago, and even a year ago. In stark contrast to that, theology has not contributed one thing to our knowledge - not a speck of knowledge, ever.

Your argument about "pond scum" is drawn from one of the usual idiots, Bill O'Reilly, who is a scientist like I am the Pope. You criticize what you do not understand. The genetic record of evolution is being mapped, and everything we know, based on all the information we have, supports evolutionary theory. The overwhelming majority of the world's scientists agree that evolution is an established fact, and only 1/3 of scientists believe in a god. They are better qualified to comment on science than you are.

Now let's turn to your hypothesis: "God did it." I have some questions for you:

1. If God did it, then why do sentient creatures kill and eat each other to survive?

2. If God did it, then why does everyone die?

3. If God did it, then why are innocent people born with brains outside their head, or joined together at the head?

4. If God did it, why in creation would he hide himself from us?

5. And if Jesus came to earth to offer salvation to all who believed in him (John 3:16), then how do you explain the fact the most of the world never heard the story, for 1,500 years and more after he died?

Ask me any questions you like. I'll be interested to see your answers to these. Only there won't be any, because you don't have any. But at least at long last, I got your attention.

[Guest Guest]

Intelligent Design deflates the entire theory behind atheism. Atheists hate the term "Intelligent Design" because it proves the existence of God. The entire atheist argument of evolution being happenstance or serendipity is shot down by intelligent design. Maybe that's why atheists are so angry, they know their theory of a godless evolution is full of holes.

You don't know what you're talking about. So-called intelligent design was destroyed in a federal court trial in Pennsylvania, where a Bush appointee ruled not only that there wasn't any evidence to support it but also that the witnesses for "intelligent design" were lying. Read Judge Jones' decision here, then come back and comment based on the facts, not based on your wishes. If you bothered to study the actual science, you would see the same thing.

[Guest Guest]

Let's start with the myth of a godless universe.

You can't have an intelligent discussion if you don't understand the arguments. The scientific position is not that the universe is godless, but that there is no evidence of a god. As for evolution and biogenesis, you say things that simply have no basis in fact.

[Guest Guest]

Intelligent Design deflates the entire theory behind atheism. Atheists hate the term "Intelligent Design" because it proves the existence of God. The entire atheist argument of evolution being happenstance or serendipity is shot down by intelligent design. Maybe that's why atheists are so angry, they know their theory of a godless evolution is full of holes.

You're doing a Colbert, right? No one is that stupid. I hope.

[Guest Product of I.D.]

You must be one of those who evolved from a puddle. I'll go with I.D.

[Guest Kearny Christian]

So let me understand this. A judge rules against I.D. and that's supposed to mean something? I wonder if he'd comment on the fact the missing link has never been found in the fossil record or that science has never been able to duplicate the basic human cell in a laboratory, despite years of trying?

All that atheists have to offer is that there's no proof of God's existence, citing a lack of God's signature or business card. If man evolved from apes there should be millions of missing links in the fossil records. Millions of fossils of all types of creatures have been found but there has never been found anything that resembles the missing link.

Seems to me you're lacking any definitive proof of your pond scum theory.

[Guest Guest]

You're not the same person as put up post #4, and your argument is as easily swatted away as a fly with a fly-swatter. You think you're making a great argument, but you're really making no argument at all. You hold us to the standard of answering every question, definitively, based on facts. Meanwhile, you hold yourself to no standard at all. You make up this fantasy-god, and cannot tell us how or why he/she/it came to be. "Who created God?" We've asked that question here on KOTW, and you have no answer. So you have the same problem: you don't have a fact-based answer for the origins of all things, and neither do we.

However, we have a long history of scientific advancement, and answers to questions that we could not answer centuries ago, decades ago, and even a year ago. In stark contrast to that, theology has not contributed one thing to our knowledge - not a speck of knowledge, ever.

Your argument about "pond scum" is drawn from one of the usual idiots, Bill O'Reilly, who is a scientist like I am the Pope. You criticize what you do not understand. The genetic record of evolution is being mapped, and everything we know, based on all the information we have, supports evolutionary theory. The overwhelming majority of the world's scientists agree that evolution is an established fact, and only 1/3 of scientists believe in a god. They are better qualified to comment on science than you are.

Now let's turn to your hypothesis: "God did it." I have some questions for you:

1. If God did it, then why do sentient creatures kill and eat each other to survive?

2. If God did it, then why does everyone die?

3. If God did it, then why are innocent people born with brains outside their head, or joined together at the head?

4. If God did it, why in creation would he hide himself from us?

5. And if Jesus came to earth to offer salvation to all who believed in him (John 3:16), then how do you explain the fact the most of the world never heard the story, for 1,500 years and more after he died?

Ask me any questions you like. I'll be interested to see your answers to these. Only there won't be any, because you don't have any. But at least at long last, I got your attention.

Well, where are the answers?