The story doesn't make sense.

[Guest Guest]

I'd have to agree with KC on one point, you do seem to be very angry with a chip on your shoulder. If you're an atheist, fine. But why come on this site and constantly harp about christians when I don't see any christians doing the same to you?

[Guest Guest]

I'd have to agree with KC on one point, you do seem to be very angry with a chip on your shoulder. If you're an atheist, fine. But why come on this site and constantly harp about christians when I don't see any christians doing the same to you?

The genesis of this was Kearny Christian's annual whine about how the Town of Kearny doesn't devote its holiday display exclusively to Christians. Read the opening post, it's explained there.

Anyway, isn't the truth or falsity of the Christian narrative important? It makes no sense to believe in something if it isn't true. Why is no one willing to discuss that?

[Guest Guest]

I'd have to agree with KC on one point, you do seem to be very angry with a chip on your shoulder. If you're an atheist, fine. But why come on this site and constantly harp about christians when I don't see any christians doing the same to you?

Yeah, right, the atheist is angry. After six months of goading, prodding and needling, the self-described Christians have settled on their story, and are finally responding on the forum. Only they're not addressing the issues, and neither are you.

You don't know that he's an atheist. He could be a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Hindu, who recognizes that the Christian narrative doesn't make sense.

And you don't know that he's angry or in need of professional help. I've heard that excuse hundreds of times. People use it when they don't have real answers. It deflects attention from them onto the other person. And maybe you did.

But anyone who actually reads this will see what you're doing. We don't know if anyone here is angry or in need of professional help, but we do know that every one of the Christians who has posted here has refused to talk about the obvious problems with their own religion. That's a fact. All you have to do is read the posts from Christians on this topic.

So even if someone - one person or more - is angry atheist in need of professional help, what does that have to do with whether the Christian narrative is true or false? Nothing.

So how is it possible that God would do the most important thing he ever did - send his only son to offer salvation, so long as we accept and believe in him - but then neglect somehow to tell most of the world the story, so they could believe in and accept it?

How does that make any sense?

You see, the real problem is that the Christians here are not willing to think about the religion they say they believe in. That's because deep down, the statement on the billboard is true: you know it's a myth.

Forget about how it feels. Get past that and think about it.

[Guest Guest]

I'd have to agree with KC on one point, you do seem to be very angry with a chip on your shoulder. If you're an atheist, fine. But why come on this site and constantly harp about christians when I don't see any christians doing the same to you?

And you come across as another Christian who absolutely refuses to be honest about his/her religion. Are you a Christian? Be honest. Because if you are, that would give you some biases, wouldn't it. And shall we talk about people's biases, which we all have, or about whether a very important part of our culture is obviously false?

And if you don't see how Christians do what has been done here, and worse, then you're not looking.

[Guest Guest]

I'd have to agree with KC on one point, you do seem to be very angry with a chip on your shoulder. If you're an atheist, fine. But why come on this site and constantly harp about christians when I don't see any christians doing the same to you?

Then you should look more carefully. In quite a few places in the USA, non-Christians are ostracized. The whole football team says a Christian prayer before the game, and anyone who doesn't like it will have a problem. You don't have to think very hard to imagine what that looks like, or what it might be like being a Jew on a mainly Christian high school football team, where the coach's "ethics" say that pushing the Christian religion on him is fine.

Here in Kearny, a sizable group of people seem to think that Christianity is something like the official town religion. They may not admit to that, but look at their behavior. A "holiday display" isn't enough, they want to insist that the town call it a "Christmas display," even though other religions are represented here, and the law says that the town can't promote one religious view over the others.

Nearly every state has a law that requires students to declare their allegiance to a nation "under God" every morning. It can't be enforced but it's obvious why it's there. "In God We Trust," says our money. That does not speak for me. It's an expression of a religious belief, and government should keep out of that.

You may think these are small points, and in a way, they are. But the very fact that the majority is so blind to the rights and interests of everyone else, is not a small point. This isn't directed at all Christians, only at those who think they have a right to push their religion in the public square, since they are in the majority. Unfortunately, many Christians think that, and some say it openly. The minority is always invisible to a majority with too strong an agenda. And if we just let them push it, tomorrow they'll want to push it further.

Here's an example of that. Presidents have long attended portions of an annual prayer day. When Bush II was president, he devoted his whole day to it. So when Obama didn't spend the whole day, but did what every other president before Bush II had done, he got political heat for it, because once Bush did it, some people expected that every president would do it. And if he didn't, they were going to punish him.

Remember how in his first inaugural address, Obama mentioned that we were a nation of many religious beliefs, including "non-believers." Remember the heat he took for daring to say that atheists are good Americans, too.

In seven states, atheists are prohibited by law from holding public office. It's true. Those laws can't be enforced but just try running for public office in Mississippi as an atheist - or for that matter, for President of the United States. You won't stand a chance. If you don't call that religious discrimination, then what do you call it?

As a non-Christian, I am sick of being treated like a second-class citizen. Call that exaggerated if you like, that's how it feels. And if you think I need psychological counseling because I'm angry about it, then go ahead and think that. You're not saying anything about me doing that, only about you. And I realize you didn't go that far. But your one comment suggests that you have some biases on this subject. So think about it, and maybe see things from another perspective.

So when KC complains about the town's holiday display because it isn't just for Christians, that is doing something to me. It's unnecessary, and it's wrong. Equality isn't just a word, we are supposed to live it.

We are ten miles from one of the world's great cultural capitals. We shouldn't be acting like hicks from the backwoods, who aren't familiar with cultural diversity, and don't know better. And when this issue came up a few years ago, that is exactly what we looked like. The whole world said it, including most Christians. So if you think we don't have a problem on this subject here in Kearny, I disagree with you, most respectfully.

[Guest Guest]

"Quite a few places in the USA" ? I asked why you come on this SITE and constantly harp about Christians when Christians aren't doing the same to you , on this SITE. You need to face reality, you live in a Christian nation where you're an extreme minority. You have to learn to deal with that reality and move on.

[Guest Guest]

"Quite a few places in the USA" ? I asked why you come on this SITE and constantly harp about Christians when Christians aren't doing the same to you , on this SITE. You need to face reality, you live in a Christian nation where you're an extreme minority. You have to learn to deal with that reality and move on.

Well you certainly said it. You've made yourself entirely clear. Yes, massa. I'll just accept my place and move to the back of the bus - in your dreams.

And out of everything that has been written here, you pick that?

Got news for you, bub. You don't get to dictate where and when this gets discussed, or how. I've put up with crap like you just served, all my adult life. It's not going to work here. Maybe you should get used to that.

Now, do you have any answer at all to explain why your ridiculous fairy tale makes any sense? Because I haven't seen one yet.

And we both know there isn't one.

[Guest Guest]

"Quite a few places in the USA" ? I asked why you come on this SITE and constantly harp about Christians when Christians aren't doing the same to you , on this SITE. You need to face reality, you live in a Christian nation where you're an extreme minority. You have to learn to deal with that reality and move on.

You might want to take another look at our country's changing demographics. Christians will not be in the majority in this country forever. Let's just hope that the next majority is kinder to you than Christians have been to them.

[Guest Guest]

I cannot speak for anyone else but I have not attacked anyone. I'm just pointing out that the Christian narrative does not make sense.

1. According to the story, God has to send his son to save us from a hell he created himself. That makes no sense.

2. According to the story, people used to be created in God's image, so they were good. Through no fault of their own, suddenly we all have a sinful nature. That makes no sense.

3. According to the story, God needs a grand melodrama to save us from this hell he created. Apparently, he can't just forgive us without a big show. That makes no sense.

4. And even if you accepted everything else, the story says that God made a great sacrifice to save us, and all we have to do is believe in and accept him. This offer was given to everyone. Only it wasn't, because for many centuries, most of the world never heard the story. That makes no sense.

Stop attacking people. Stop avoiding the issue. Your story makes no sense.

[Guest Guest]

"Quite a few places in the USA" ? I asked why you come on this SITE and constantly harp about Christians when Christians aren't doing the same to you , on this SITE. You need to face reality, you live in a Christian nation where you're an extreme minority. You have to learn to deal with that reality and move on.

This isn't about you, or about me, or anyone else. It's about your story. Here, I'll get you started on answering the questions.

Let's start with the part about most of the world never hearing about Jesus for more than a thousand years after he supposedly lived and died. Now, here's what you say:

"God didn't tell everyone about it because . . ."

Now just finish the sentence. Piece of cake.

Or take that part about man's sinful nature. All you have to say is:

"People used to be created in God's image but now we are created with an ungodly, sinful nature because . . ."

Or take the part about God creating hell.

"God created a place of eternal torment because . . ."

Now just finish the sentences.

See how easy it is? Can't wait to see your answers.

Because I have to tell you, I don't understand why anyone would WANT to believe this stuff.

[Guest Guest]

Amazing how people who shout the loudest about what great Christians they are don’t want to talk about their own religion when someone calls them out on its obvious problems. You could say that's a criticism of the person but it's mainly criticism of the religious doctrines and ideas. So "pot meet kettle" doesn't fit here, because Christianity's critics are addressing the merits of the religion. And the Christians aren't! Their own religion, they are commanded to spread the word, and they won't even discuss it!

You’re being given the opportunity to spread the good news, KC and others. “Gospel” means truth. Just turn the other cheek and speak the truth. If your gospel had any truth in it, you would have no difficulty doing that.

In fact, why don't we do Bible study right here on KOTW? The Great Commission compels you to spread the word. So spread it. Of course you won't, because you know that some of us will counter your BS with the truth.

Every time you attack the messenger, you only prove the point. Your religion is a myth, and you know it.

[Guest Guest]

Just think, in about two weeks, so-called Kearny Christian can start whining about the holiday displays again.

[Guest Guest]

Once again, I'll ask you why you constantly come on this site and harp about Christians when Christians don't do the same to you.

If you can't answer because of some deep seated issue, then you really need to talk to someone. Good luck.

[Guest Guest]

Once again, I'll ask you why you constantly come on this site and harp about Christians when Christians don't do the same to you.

If you can't answer because of some deep seated issue, then you really need to talk to someone. Good luck.

All you ever talk about is how someone else, whom you don't even know, supposedly has issues.

What you never talk about is the religion you claim to believe in.

What kind of a god would have to save his own children from a hell he created himself?

And if he was going to do that, and everyone on earth had to believe in him to be saved, then why did most of the world never hear anything about it for well more than a thousand years?

Conclusion: the story is a cultural artifact. It never happened.

You know it's a myth, which would explain why you absolutely refuse to discuss it.

[Guest Guest]

Once again, I'll ask you why you constantly come on this site and harp about Christians when Christians don't do the same to you.

If you can't answer because of some deep seated issue, then you really need to talk to someone. Good luck.

In the first place, I don't see much harping on Christians here. Mainly, I see a critique of the Christian narrative, which you have refused even to acknowledge, let alone answer.

Second, Christians are in our faces all the time. Not every Christian, of course, but enough to force prayers into our public schools until the Supreme Court said they couldn't do that, enough to put "In God We Trust" on our money (which isn't necessarily a Christian statement but it's pretty well understood as one), and enough to make sure that a non-Christian cannot credibly run for President. When overly aggressive Christians push themselves onto people, they don't always ask whether the time or place is acceptable to others. They just intrude. If you don't see it, then you probably have some biases that make you blind to it.

The most interesting thing, watching this, is that the Christians who have responded here, absolutely refuse to acknowledge the critique, let alone respond to it. One Christian apologist made an argument for the truth of the Bible a few weeks back but even he completely ignored the points raised by the author of this topic. What you don't seem to realize is that when people see you running away from your own religion, it lends credence to the statement that you don't really believe it yourself.

[Guest Guest]

In the first place, I don't see much harping on Christians here. Mainly, I see a critique of the Christian narrative, which you have refused even to acknowledge, let alone answer.

Second, Christians are in our faces all the time. Not every Christian, of course, but enough to force prayers into our public schools until the Supreme Court said they couldn't do that, enough to put "In God We Trust" on our money (which isn't necessarily a Christian statement but it's pretty well understood as one), and enough to make sure that a non-Christian cannot credibly run for President. When overly aggressive Christians push themselves onto people, they don't always ask whether the time or place is acceptable to others. They just intrude. If you don't see it, then you probably have some biases that make you blind to it.

The most interesting thing, watching this, is that the Christians who have responded here, absolutely refuse to acknowledge the critique, let alone respond to it. One Christian apologist made an argument for the truth of the Bible a few weeks back but even he completely ignored the points raised by the author of this topic. What you don't seem to realize is that when people see you running away from your own religion, it lends credence to the statement that you don't really believe it yourself.

IOW, you know it's a myth. Deep down, where you tell yourself the truth when no one is listening, you know it.

[Guest Guest]

Just curious, when an atheist or someone close to an atheist is dying or otherwise terminal, do they suddenly get religion? When death is near do they start praying just in case they were wrong in their disbelief? As the saying goes: There's no atheists in foxholes.

[Guest Guest]

So how does it make sense that God, if there was or is one, would offer the whole world salvation, provided they believe in and accept Jesus; but then most of the world never hears about it?

And how long will it be before pretty much everyone admits that, obviously, it never happened?

I'm not saying it to be mean. I would dearly love for everyone to live forever in paradise with a loving god. I'm saying it because it's true. The story makes absolutely no sense. It never happened. People made the whole thing up. And we cannot afford to dismiss science or divide the world based on a fantasy. The costs are too high.

That's why I care, and you should too.

[Guest Guest]

Just curious, when an atheist or someone close to an atheist is dying or otherwise terminal, do they suddenly get religion? When death is near do they start praying just in case they were wrong in their disbelief? As the saying goes: There's no atheists in foxholes.

Number one, that's not true. The film critic Roger Ebert, the noted atheist Christopher Hitchens and countless others have faced, and met, impending death with dignity and courage. They did not start praying. The idea that every atheist suddenly "gets religion" when death approaches is just another one of your stories.

Number two, even if it was true, it would not do anything to show that the story was true. It would only show that people come to theism out of fear. You're pointing out one of the many problems with your way of thinking. If you want to project your fears onto us, we can't stop you, but we do not see these things as you do.

Number three, even if an atheist wanted to do a deathbed conversion, do you seriously think that a god would be impressed that they started praying "just in case"? You have a most peculiar sense of what matters.

Number four, this completely ignores the point. The Christian narrative is obviously not true. Even if you want to believe in a god, why that god? The story makes no sense.

In other words, you know it's a myth. If you didn't know that, you would have explained how it makes any sense a long time ago. But since it doesn't make any sense, you can't do that.

[Guest Guest]

I would think that most atheists have an awakening as they grow older and wiser. As you said, there's no atheists in foxholes.

[Guest Guest]

Just amazing, watching the so-called Christians ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to talk about their own religion.

[Guest Guest]

Just curious, when an atheist or someone close to an atheist is dying or otherwise terminal, do they suddenly get religion? When death is near do they start praying just in case they were wrong in their disbelief? As the saying goes: There's no atheists in foxholes.

The better question is, why do Christians cry at funerals? If they really believed that Grandma was with Jesus in heaven, they would be celebrating. Recognizing this problem, a few of them do. But most treat death as what it appears to be: the end of life, the end of the person's existence. If people didn't really believe that, notwithstanding what they say, they would behave differently.

[Guest Guest]

Just curious, when an atheist or someone close to an atheist is dying or otherwise terminal, do they suddenly get religion? When death is near do they start praying just in case they were wrong in their disbelief?

No, by and large, they don't. Make up a story about a god, make up stories about people - either way, you're just making up a story. Here's what you're saying:

"I don't really believe in you but now that I'm about to die, I'll pretend that I do believe in you just in case you do exist and would torture me if I don't believe in you. Of course, I know you can read all my thoughts, and you know I'm trying to fool you so that you'll let me into heaven instead of casting me into hell."

Yeah, that makes sense. That should work.

[Guest Guest]

I would think that most atheists have an awakening as they grow older and wiser. As you said, there's no atheists in foxholes.

Except you know better than that. Fear does not produce wisdom. It may produce panic.

And you're just making it up. There are atheists in foxholes, and hospital beds, and on our police forces and in our fire departments. You're just trying to justify yourself. There is no wisdom in that, or in avoiding the issue. You still refuse to talk about the religion you claim to believe in.

And this topic doesn't even present atheism. It only points out that a particular story does not make sense, and therefore obviously is not true.

You can keep reframing the issues and changing the subject so you don't have to face the ugly facts about your own religion. Every time you do it, you only prove the point. All you're doing is running away from what you claim to believe, and worship. Where is the wisdom in that?

[Guest Guest]

"No, by and large, they don't" ?? What an idiot. No one could possibly know what any atheist's final thoughts are. With the kind of logic you're displaying here, it's no wonder you're an atheist.