Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Guest

The story doesn't make sense.

Recommended Posts

Guest Guest

You're up early, 5 am on a Sunday. You must be going to early mass. God bless you.

OK, so you read the post. Why not say something? It's your theology. Explain why the critiques are wrong. You can't, because they're not wrong. They're exactly right.

Think that's unreasonable? It's not. Some idiot keeps posting ignorant stuff about climate change, and those of us who know better keep responding and refuting. It's easy because the science, and the truth, are on our side. The ignorant posts offer us an opportunity to educate and get the truth out about climate change. You would do the same thing for your theology if it made any sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

According to the God babblers who keep posting here, there is a God who sent his only divine Son to die on a cross so that those who believed in him may be saved from eternal torment. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but shall have eternal life." (John 3:16)

The story is obviously a ridiculous fairy tale. I'm not saying it to be mean. I'm saying it because the God babblers keep forcing their religion on us, and - along with many others - I'm sick of it. They want to talk about their religion, and push it on everyone. OK, then let's talk about it. If it wasn't for their incessant pushing, I wouldn't do this.

In the first place, Christians can't even get their story straight. Is it a lake of fire and eternal torment, or merely death and annihilation? Assuming the former, God would be a sociopath and a psychopath, making the story a horrid fairy tale. Assuming the latter, the story is merely a fairy tale.

Second, assume the story to be true. According to the story, God offered himself as a sacrifice, out of love, for each and every person on earth. The offer, per John 3:16, was extended to the whole world, and salvation is granted to everyone "who believes in him." You can't believe in someone you've never heard of. If the story was true, every person who ever lived, since Jesus died, would have known about the story, thereby having the chance to believe. Yet when white Europeans encountered native peoples all over the world, in remote areas, from the late medieval period into the 20th century, they had never heard the story. They had no chance to believe. But according to the fairy tale, their salvation was conditioned on belief. Surely God would have the power to send an angel to tell everyone about the most important thing he ever did, the thing that would offer them salvation. Yet somehow, most of the world never heard the story. This is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that the story is a cultural artifact, born of a particular time and place. It is not universal. It isn't true. It never happened. If it had happened, everyone who ever lived since Jesus died would have heard about it. God would have made sure of that - if that God existed.

I cannot prove whether there is or is not a God. But the use of a little reason proves beyond any doubt that this version of God is a fairy tale.

You wanted to discuss your religion, God babblers. You want an officially sanctioned Christmas tree, not just a holiday tree. In only seven months, you can start whining about that again. Again, I'm not saying this, in this forum, for any other reason except that you keep shoving your religion down our throats. Here's your chance to show everyone why the things written here are not true. You wanted to discuss your religion. Go ahead.

Almost six months later and not a word from the so-called Christians to defend this ridiculous story. And just think, in two months, they'll start whining again about the holiday display at town hall.

Seriously, if you really believe this stuff, then explain how this makes any sense. You know it doesn't, which is why you won't touch it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

And of course, KearnyChristian, a/k/a 2Stupid4Words, a/k/a Patriot, won't touch this either. You open "topic" after topic, day after day, saying nothing, because you think the people who disagree with you are loony. Among everything else, you have a very short attention span.

Put your money where your blabber is. Explain how this ridiculous story makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

No, it's not. When a culture refuses to abandon its ancient myths, it inhibits its own growth, gives license to irresponsibility, and turns religion into exactly the opposite of what it should be: a vehicle for indulging our worst inclinations instead of a source of wisdom and inspiration that lifts us up to higher ground. That's what it's about. That so many people take the Bible as being literally true, in an age when we have so much information, is shocking. You can call names and challenge my courage all day long. But what you can't seem to do is address the very real issue that we live in a culture that parades nonsense around as truth. If you think I act like an asshole, that's my problem, not yours.

Post again. Only this time, instead of calling names and resorting to ad hominem attacks, address the issues raised in the opening post.

Religion has been slowly leaving the world. How's it working for us, have you read or watched the news lately?

Edited by KOTW
Quote placement not corrected

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Almost six months later and not a word from the so-called Christians to defend this ridiculous story. And just think, in two months, they'll start whining again about the holiday display at town hall.

Seriously, if you really believe this stuff, then explain how this makes any sense. You know it doesn't, which is why you won't touch it.

Who will start whining? The Christians? Think again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

I'm for religion. What I'm not for is a story that makes absolutely no sense.

This topic does not attack all religion. It points out the gaping flaws in a particular theology. Since you've chosen to comment, address the subject at hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TR Papa

I'm a Christian and my belief is based on Faith. But if it's "proof" you're looking for, there are numerous scientific publications available that prove the Bible is an accurate historical manuscript. It is not the "fairy tale" you mistakenly think it is. If you're truly interested in the facts, check out "Archaeology and the Bible", for starters.

The Bible is comprised of 66 independent books, all written by real people, all recalling events as they saw them or that were reported to them. In today's court rooms, diaries are admissible as testimony and evidence. Wouldn't the same hold true of the books of the Bible? Today's literary critics of ancient manuscripts still follow Aristotle's Dictum which states "The benefit of doubt is to be given to the document itself, NOT arrogated by the critic to himself. In other words, unless the document contains internal contradictions, or factual inaccuracies, the document is to be presumed TRUE and the burden is on the critic to prove otherwise. The Bible contains thousands of historical references, none of which have been found to be false, in fact, science has proven time and again that the Bible is an accurate historical document.

Let me ask you this; How do we know George Washington really existed? No one alive today has ever seen laid eyes on him, yet we believe. We know because we rely on historical documents, written by people actually saw him or who were told he existed by others who saw him. It is by faith that I believe George Washington existed, and it is by faith that I believe Jesus Christ existed. It's the same thing, just separated by bout 2014 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Religion has been slowly leaving the world. How's it working for us, have you read or watched the news lately?

If you would truly pay attention to the facts, you would see that theistic religions like Christianity, Judaism and Islam are not making the world safer or better.

Here in the United States, the Bible Belt states have the highest murder rates, divorce rates and a host of other personal and social ills. Historically, our Christian roots didn't stop us from enslaving one race of people and nearly annihilating another.

Islamic terrorism uses the fervency of its belief system to condone and promote atrocious acts.

Judaism is the religion of Israel. I know you're not supposed to say this in the USA but Israel hasn't been at all kind to the Arabic peoples in that region of the world.

More wars have been fought in the name of religion than perhaps anything else. Religions may not be the true root cause (it's usually greed) but they provide an excuse for doing horrible things - because after all, if God is on your side, why should you worry about anything else.

Religion should be a way of bringing everything together, making sense out of things as best we can, and living according to a human system of values. That kind of religion is great but you don't need a god for it. The most peaceable religions, like Tibetan Buddhism, do not have a god.

Religion can be used for good but when it's based on a fairy tale, it's more likely to be used as cover for whatever someone wants to do. That's why hypocrisy is so rampant where religion comes up.

Notice how you completely avoided the question. The Christian narrative does not make any sense. You take the time to post, but you don't say one word in its defense. That's because deep down, when you're alone with yourself, you know it's true. The story doesn't make any sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

I'm a Christian, my beliefs are based on faith.

Which means what? There are two basic definitions of faith.

One defines faith as an action, as in "Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase." That kind of faith is necessary. We couldn't make any progress or get virtually anything done without it. When things seem dark, or hopeless, moving forward anyway offers a way - perhaps the only way into the light. It can be liberating and life-changing. I know because I've done it. That kind of faith is productive.

The other defines faith as a belief, regardless of the evidence and reason. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen." In other words, you just make stuff up and call it true. That kind of faith is not productive. On the contrary, it's just an excuse for believing whatever you want to believe. That can lead to all kinds of problems; the only way out is to walk away from your "faith" whenever it doesn't work. That's why Christians don't believe in the whole Bible. (I've never met anyone who does.) There are things in it that don't work for them, so they just ignore them. (Actions speak louder than words.) OK, but then the Bible is not the inerrant word of an almighty god.

But that isn't even the issue here. The issue here is whether your theology makes sense. It doesn't. It's absurd, for all the reasons laid out in the opening post, and others. Why would you even want to believe in a god who would allow even one person to suffer in eternal torment, having the power to prevent that? Or a god who would make sentient creatures double as food? Or a "god," supposedly the father of all, who had a "chosen people"? Or a god who needs a grand melodrama to forgive; and even then the condition for salvation can't be met because many people never heard of the supposed savior. What more proof do you need to know that the Bible was authored by the "chosen people"? A "god" like that would turn on you in a heartbeat, for any reason or none. Your "faith" doesn't accomplish anything, except that maybe it comforts you, so long as you don't really think about it - which explains why you absolutely refuse to address all the points raised in the opening post. You don't dare think about your religion, because deep down, you know that if you do think about it, you'll have to admit that it's absurd.

I use the brain I've been given, regardless of where it came from. My beliefs are based on facts and reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Excellent, and long overdue. Let's discuss it.

I'm a Christian and my belief is based on Faith. But if it's "proof" you're looking for, there are numerous scientific publications available that prove the Bible is an accurate historical manuscript. It is not the "fairy tale" you mistakenly think it is. If you're truly interested in the facts, check out "Archaeology and the Bible", for starters.

That doesn't address any of the points in the opening post. I've read all kinds of apologetics for the Bible. They're not generally accepted by archaeologists. But that's beside the point. This topic raises specific issues.

The Bible is comprised of 66 independent books, all written by real people, all recalling events as they saw them or that were reported to them. In today's court rooms, diaries are admissible as testimony and evidence. Wouldn't the same hold true of the books of the Bible?

Again, that's completely beside the point but I'll answer your question, even though you insist on avoiding the obvious problems with your fairy-tale theology.

No, for two reasons. Diaries are not generally admissible in a legal proceeding. They are out-of-court statements, not subject to cross-examination, and as such they are hearsay.

A diary may be admitted in evidence for other purposes but first it must be authenticated. The author would have to be known. Someone would have to come to court with the ability to authenticate it. There would have to be sufficient proof that the author had personal knowledge of the purported facts stated in the diary. In rare cases, a diary might be admitted in evidence for the truth of the matters contained therein but there would have to be convincing proof about the circumstances of the writing. The Bible does not meet any of those tests.

Today's literary critics of ancient manuscripts still follow Aristotle's Dictum which states "The benefit of doubt is to be given to the document itself, NOT arrogated by the critic to himself. In other words, unless the document contains internal contradictions, or factual inaccuracies, the document is to be presumed TRUE and the burden is on the critic to prove otherwise. The Bible contains thousands of historical references, none of which have been found to be false, in fact, science has proven time and again that the Bible is an accurate historical document.

Again, that's completely beside the point. However:

That statement does not apply to a collection of writings that make extraordinary claims, such as talking animals and a universe supposedly created out of nothing. Furthermore, no one who is claimed to have written the Bible was around to witness the supposed creation of the universe, the Earth and the first two people. No good historian would give a benefit of doubt to such a writing.

Further-furthermore, the Bible is loaded with internal contradictions, and things that are just plain wrong. For example, the sky is not a dome over the Earth.

Let me ask you this; How do we know George Washington really existed? No one alive today has ever seen laid eyes on him, yet we believe. We know because we rely on historical documents, written by people actually saw him or who were told he existed by others who saw him. It is by faith that I believe George Washington existed, and it is by faith that I believe Jesus Christ existed. It's the same thing, just separated by bout 2014 years.

Again, it's completely beside the point, but again, you are incorrect.

We have President Washington's papers, in his own handwriting. We have portraits painted by his contemporaries. We have an unbroken chain of references, which is not true of the Bible. And those extra 1800 years do make a difference.

However, it's still completely beside the point. The story makes no sense, for the reasons stated in the opening post. Address those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

. . . there are numerous scientific publications available that prove the Bible is an accurate historical manuscript.

Provide some links to support your claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

. . . there are numerous scientific publications available that prove the Bible is an accurate historical manuscript.

To continue: The creator of this NOVA program, a professional archaeologist, disputes your claim. Archaeological evidence supports a view that the early Hebrews did not worship one god but many deities, and that what we now know as Judaism wasn't handed down on a stone tablet to Moses or anyone else, but evolved. That would explain why the First Commandment is an injunction against false gods. Obviously, that was an issue. Over time, the Hebrews "purified" their culture, producing what we now know as Judaism. And of course, they insisted that the story be told as they desired. Constantine did a similar thing with Christianity, which he forced on people by the sword and his army. That's an explanation that makes sense, and is consistent with human nature and the very difficult conditions of those ancient times.

But more to the point, what's with this "chosen people" stuff? Doesn't make you suspicious about where this story came from - even a little?

Of course, you can say "but I have faith." Yeah, big deal. You'll believe it no matter what. That's supposed to impress someone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

I'm a Christian and my belief is based on Faith. But if it's "proof" you're looking for, there are numerous scientific publications available that prove the Bible is an accurate historical manuscript. It is not the "fairy tale" you mistakenly think it is. If you're truly interested in the facts, check out "Archaeology and the Bible", for starters.

The Bible is comprised of 66 independent books, all written by real people, all recalling events as they saw them or that were reported to them. In today's court rooms, diaries are admissible as testimony and evidence. Wouldn't the same hold true of the books of the Bible? Today's literary critics of ancient manuscripts still follow Aristotle's Dictum which states "The benefit of doubt is to be given to the document itself, NOT arrogated by the critic to himself. In other words, unless the document contains internal contradictions, or factual inaccuracies, the document is to be presumed TRUE and the burden is on the critic to prove otherwise. The Bible contains thousands of historical references, none of which have been found to be false, in fact, science has proven time and again that the Bible is an accurate historical document.

Let me ask you this; How do we know George Washington really existed? No one alive today has ever seen laid eyes on him, yet we believe. We know because we rely on historical documents, written by people actually saw him or who were told he existed by others who saw him. It is by faith that I believe George Washington existed, and it is by faith that I believe Jesus Christ existed. It's the same thing, just separated by bout 2014 years.

From the opening post:

"Is it a lake of fire and eternal torment, or merely death and annihilation? Assuming the former, God would be a sociopath and a psychopath, making the story a horrid fairy tale. Assuming the latter, the story is merely a fairy tale.

"Second, assume the story to be true. According to the story, God offered himself as a sacrifice, out of love, for each and every person on earth. The offer, per John 3:16, was extended to the whole world, and salvation is granted to everyone "who believes in him." You can't believe in someone you've never heard of. If the story was true, every person who ever lived, since Jesus died, would have known about the story, thereby having the chance to believe. Yet when white Europeans encountered native peoples all over the world, in remote areas, from the late medieval period into the 20th century, they had never heard the story. They had no chance to believe. But according to the fairy tale, their salvation was conditioned on belief. Surely God would have the power to send an angel to tell everyone about the most important thing he ever did, the thing that would offer them salvation. Yet somehow, most of the world never heard the story. This is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that the story is a cultural artifact, born of a particular time and place. It is not universal. It isn't true. It never happened. If it had happened, everyone who ever lived since Jesus died would have heard about it. God would have made sure of that - if that God existed."

TR Papa, you ignored the questions posed by the topic. How do you respond to these points? Put aside what you want to believe for a while and just think about them. They make an awful lot of sense, don't you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

From the opening post:

"Is it a lake of fire and eternal torment, or merely death and annihilation? Assuming the former, God would be a sociopath and a psychopath, making the story a horrid fairy tale. Assuming the latter, the story is merely a fairy tale.

"Second, assume the story to be true. According to the story, God offered himself as a sacrifice, out of love, for each and every person on earth. The offer, per John 3:16, was extended to the whole world, and salvation is granted to everyone "who believes in him." You can't believe in someone you've never heard of. If the story was true, every person who ever lived, since Jesus died, would have known about the story, thereby having the chance to believe. Yet when white Europeans encountered native peoples all over the world, in remote areas, from the late medieval period into the 20th century, they had never heard the story. They had no chance to believe. But according to the fairy tale, their salvation was conditioned on belief. Surely God would have the power to send an angel to tell everyone about the most important thing he ever did, the thing that would offer them salvation. Yet somehow, most of the world never heard the story. This is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that the story is a cultural artifact, born of a particular time and place. It is not universal. It isn't true. It never happened. If it had happened, everyone who ever lived since Jesus died would have heard about it. God would have made sure of that - if that God existed."

TR Papa, you ignored the questions posed by the topic. How do you respond to these points? Put aside what you want to believe for a while and just think about them. They make an awful lot of sense, don't you think?

He doesn't think, at least not about this. That's the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Which means what?

It means that he thinks religion is about believing whatever he wants to believe, even if it makes no sense at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Bored Guest

Isn't this Board supposed to be about Kearny news and opinions on local issues? Must we put up with this unending philosophical discussion on the existence or non-existence of God? Debates on global warming and opinions on national political figures are also innapropriate for this Board in my opinion, unless it would directly impact the town. This topic is usually always at the top and one must usually scroll down to find any town news. By posting this I will be doing the same thing. (Oh, well!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Isn't this Board supposed to be about Kearny news and opinions on local issues? Must we put up with this unending philosophical discussion on the existence or non-existence of God? Debates on global warming and opinions on national political figures are also innapropriate for this Board in my opinion, unless it would directly impact the town. This topic is usually always at the top and one must usually scroll down to find any town news. By posting this I will be doing the same thing. (Oh, well!)

With this particular topic, we are treated every year to the usual right wing whine, courtesy of Bill O'Reilly, about a non-existent war on Christmas. In our public schools, including the ones in Kearny, children who do not believe in a god are required by law to recite a pledge that implies that they do. (It can't be enforced but it's in the law, and most kids go along because they don't want to draw attention to themselves.) Our money says "In God We Trust," even though many of us do not believe in a god. One little bit at a time, some Christians are trying to force their religion on everyone. We had a big blow-up about this in our high school a few years go, and Kearny ended up looking foolish.

You could look at it along the lines of "it isn't a big deal, don't fuss about it." But then, you should also be able to say, if it isn't a big deal, then the Christians should stop trying to use other people to reinforce their religious beliefs. That's what churches are for, not town governments. And it's classic hypocrisy for "some Christians" to insist that other people's religious beliefs are no big deal, but theirs are.

In the end, you would be right, except for the facts that (1) KOTW allows these discussions to occur, and it's their forum, if they want to restrict it, they can, and (2) you don't have to open a topic if you don't like it. Frankly, without all these other discussions, there wouldn't be much going on here.

Bottom line for me is that as long as "Kearny Christian" and other keep trying to force their religion on everyone in Kearny, I'll ask them to explain how their theology makes any sense. That's fair, don't you think? And isn't remarkable that not one of them has tried to defend the story. Not one.

On the public policy issues, such as global warming, pretty every topic is opened by a flaming right winger who calls himself 2smart4u, or sometimes Patriot or Kearny Christian. He's almost always wrong, and when he is, it invites correction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Isn't this Board supposed to be about Kearny news and opinions on local issues? Must we put up with this unending philosophical discussion on the existence or non-existence of God? Debates on global warming and opinions on national political figures are also innapropriate for this Board in my opinion, unless it would directly impact the town. This topic is usually always at the top and one must usually scroll down to find any town news. By posting this I will be doing the same thing. (Oh, well!)

That's not true. This is one topic. You can easily see the others, including the town news, without going through the arduous task of scrolling down the page.

What's interesting is that with the hundreds of "topics" opened by 2Stupid4Words and "Patriot" (clearly, the same person), you pick this one to complain about it. Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Interested reader

Only Kearny topics ? that would be truly boring; So and so puts his garbage out too soon, so and so always parks in front of my house, so and so should turn his TV down, borrrringg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Kearny Christian

Isn't it sad that this lonely atheist needs to plead his misguided viewpoint here on KOTW. It must be difficult for him on Sunday mornings to sit home by himself. As a Christian I'll pray for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Isn't this Board supposed to be about Kearny news and opinions on local issues? Must we put up with this unending philosophical discussion on the existence or non-existence of God? Debates on global warming and opinions on national political figures are also innapropriate for this Board in my opinion, unless it would directly impact the town. This topic is usually always at the top and one must usually scroll down to find any town news. By posting this I will be doing the same thing. (Oh, well!)

This topic isn't about the "existence of non-existence of God." It's about the absurdity of the Christian narrative in particular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...