Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Paul

The quality of education

Recommended Posts

Guest qetzal
If you were concerned you would have attened the meeting in school with the Admin. and your son. It would have ended there!

You see, that would have been the end of it, but that is not what you want. Stop pretending.

According to an earlier post by Mr. LaClair (on a different thread), the school administration did not permit him to attend:

Matthew then spent two weeks chasing after the principal for a meeting with the principal and the teacher. Matt requested that we, the parents, be present, but that was declined. So when Matthew finally was given the meeting in the principal's office on October 10, he was alone in that office with the principal, the department head and an angry teacher.

It's certainly shameful that this matter has progressed to this point. But the shame belongs to the school administration, not to the LaClairs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! I just read all the posted messages?

Paul .... have you EVER taught in a classroom ever??? Didn't think so.

You have many "ideal" solutions and yes opinions. KUDOS FOR your EFFORT AND RHETORIC ( you get an A+) ...but in reality ....it just ain't so! I know. Hey ... I will always adore kids and teaching ...and they have taught me and laughed with me for many years ! I could give you one thousand other crucial education/children issues to exhaust your energies on???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
I'd like the people who support the teacher to consider something.

Do you believe that a parent has the right to determine the religious education and devotional time of their children?

If teachers are allowed to proselytize in class to a captive audience of school kids, you are taking away the parents rights regarding religious instruction and giving them to the state. In effect, you are allowing state sponsored church that school children are forced into attendance.

Now, I'm sure for some that it's perfectly fine if my kids are made to hear your beliefs and given the impression that their government, country, and authorities support your brand of christianity. After all, a little prayer never hurt anybody, and bringing them to Christianity is a good thing, because their souls are on the line. Right?

But what if the reverse were true? What if your kids were put in the same situation, but teachers were promoting my agnostic views, and that instead of my kids being told they were going to hell, your kids were being told they were stupid and that they'd never get a good paying job because of it? Or how about if as a good evangelical parent your kids came home and told you how they prayed to Mary with their Catholic teacher? Or what if they were told about mormonism and asked to convert or never see their family in heaven?

So I hope you see how neutrality, not state sponsored support of your beliefs, is the answer. You need to respect the religious rights of the students to believe as they see fit without government intrusion, and the rights of parents to teach their kids as they may.

Bingo.

It's hypocrisy in action. Those who support the teacher don't mind having their Christian beliefs taught, but the outcry that would arise from them if a teacher tried to proselytize, say, Muslim or Buddhist beliefs, or taught that there is no God would wake the dead.

Freedom of Religion and the ban on state endorsement of religion protects people of all religions from coercive state power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest David
"These types of beliefs to go unopposed" ??  A little Nazi in your family background  Dave ??

You do realize, of course, that by custom on many online forums the first person to use overblown and inappropriate Nazi or Hitler analogies loses and the discussion thread is considered to be over. It's called Godwin's Law.

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. Thanks for playing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You may want to consider rewording that, as it sounds very much like a threat, and a threat by an adult against a minor at that. If it was not meant as a threat (and I suspect it wasn't), then you very much need to make that clear.

:P well you may be right! so i will try for the 2nd time to fix that! you see kotw changed my post so here we go " i ' ment that history will show that a family in the 60s "who kotw will not let me use the name of" started this mess and the ending was not nice for them! hey its public well known history! well that is if you are as old as me! they started with the same ideas as paul!i will leave it that way!! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Keith-Marshall,Mo
:angry: well you may be right! so i will try for the 2nd time to fix that! you see kotw changed my post so here we go " i ' ment that history will show that a family in the 60s "who kotw will not let me use the name of" started this mess and the ending was not nice for them! hey its public well known history! well that is if you are as old as me! they started with the same ideas as paul!i will leave it that way!! :excl:

Oh give me a break! I can only surmise that you are talking about Charles Manson and Family? If so that is the most lame comparison on this thread so far, unless of course you are talking about the perils of "Blind Faith" in which case I would strongly agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul
Wow!  I just read all the posted messages?

Paul .... have you EVER taught in a classroom ever???  Didn't think so.

You have many "ideal" solutions and yes opinions.    KUDOS FOR your EFFORT AND RHETORIC ( you get an A+) ...but in reality ....it just ain't so!  I know.  Hey ... I will always adore kids and teaching ...and they have taught me and laughed with me for many years !  I could give you one thousand other crucial education/children issues to exhaust your energies on???

Most respectfully, I was a student in a public school classroom for thirteen years, a rural school in the Midwest. Not one of my teachers ever did anything like this. That excuse won't fly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
"These types of beliefs to go unopposed" ??  A little Nazi in your family background  Dave ??

These types of beliefs, as quoted from my post, should be opposed:

"If people don't put their foot down, proselytizing of this nature will only become more common. These people believe it is their right to use government entities to proselytize their beliefs. The ends justifies any means possible and their ends is a theocratic government and a compliant, ignorant population that submits to their authority."

Perhaps you'd like atheist teachers to tell their students that there is no god and that they are delusional for believing evolution is false?

Yeah, you'd be really tolerant of that.

You hypocrites bleat like sheep whenever you think someone has dissed your beliefs, but you sure do love it when someone else's get trashed.

Respect other people's right to believe and worship as they want, or not to worship at all by leaving religion out of the classroom, unless it's a comparative religion class. That way we can all get along in this country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest wrong
According to an earlier post by Mr. LaClair (on a different thread), the school administration did not permit him to attend:

It's certainly shameful that this matter has progressed to this point. But the shame belongs to the school administration, not to the LaClairs.

NO, he somehow thought that Matt did not need/or want him there.

Very suspect. :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest What?
Wow.  I thought that my standard for the average American could sink no lower, but apparently I was wrong.  I can't believe that I am actually responding to this comment.  I guess that I thought it was so stupid that I couldn't let it go unanswered. 

A few religious comments, huh?  I see.  And Martin Luther King Jr. made a couple of light speeches, and Einstein did that one sort of important equation thingy, and Ghandi said those things about that other thing that was only kinda worth paying attention to.  Is my message getting through to you yet bud, or should I go on?

There is no "going easy on" in this situation.  This is one of those rare circumstances where there is a definite right and wrong.  Just like the teacher had a choice of right and wrong (and he picked the latter, in case anyone was still in doubt), the Board of Education and, more importantly, the US court system now has a choice between right and wrong.  They must choose the right coarse of action if the justice system of this country is to be faithfully upheld.

Yes, the superintendent and board attorney are showing gross incompetence in this situation, not because they have not fired the teacher, but because they have not taken any action at all to help the situation.  They are either blind to the obvious or being pulled by religious backing and beliefs in a direction that will only further the conflict.  This man was a history teacher, and these were students going to a public school.  Please, America, lift the veil from your eyes and see without barriers what this man did.  Put aside your religious beliefs and social pressures.  Put yourself, if at all possible, in the shoes of a bystander.  Look at what this man did, at the comments that he made, and realize just how wrong it was. 

There is a clear path being path being laid here from this issue to religion.  Because if religion makes this right, then religion is wrong.

RIGHT, the Board Attorney and the Supt. should be fired for a teacher doing wrong. Yeah!

By the way, once again, they addressed the matter, but until all you extremists get everybody on the Board of Ed, Supt., Mayor, teachers, etc, etc, etc fired or hung or whatever you looking for you will not stop crying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
:angry: well you may be right! so i will try for the 2nd time to fix that! you see kotw changed my post so here we go " i ' ment that history will show that a family in the 60s "who kotw will not let me use the name of" started this mess and the ending was not nice for them! hey its public well known history! well that is if you are as old as me! they started with the same ideas as paul!i will leave it that way!! :excl:

Let me give you a bit of my history.

When I was going to school in the sixties and seventies I attended schools that either had a moment of prayer, prayer over the intercom, and the Pledge of Allegiance. Sometimes combinations of two or more. My father told me I didn't have to pray with the teacher or even pay attention to the one over the intercom. Later in the seventh grade I found out that I had the right not to say the pledge. I mainly thought the entire idea of forcing someone to say a rote pledge to a flag was silly, but I also objected to what I saw as coerced prayer. When I told my teacher that I was no longer going to stand and say the pledge and that no one was required to do so, he went ballistic. He told me that he was a vet, and that in his class I would stand. To make a long story short I was disciplined, berated, called names, threatened, and sent to the principals office where I was told to knock it off. Though the teacher was mad that I wouldn't say the pledge, the school was mad that I had let others in on the fact that they didn't have to say the pledge either. When my father heard about this, he could have told me to go along as well. He was a vet and he had many of the same sympathies as the teacher. What he did was to march down to school with me, get the teacher into the principals office, and then read them the riot act and tell them that he went to war just like my teacher, and it was to defend the constitutional rights of Americans and this country and that I had the right to not say the pledge. Needless to say I was left alone, though I still caught flack from my teacher and a few students.

Because of my dad I learned that real patriotism is respecting the rights of others, not forcing your beliefs on unwilling school children. What's going on in Paul's school is similar. A good American and a good christian would know what the teacher did was wrong. The school has not stood up for the rights of their students, only the right of the teacher to violate those rights. Had my father not gone down and forced the school to acknowledge my rights and threaten the teacher with disciplinary action if he ever did it again it, would have sent a signal to other like minded individuals that the school was on their side and that they could do and preach as they please in their classroom.

Paul needs to take this to them and make it sting. It needs to be shown to other teachers and schools that this will not be tolerated. If it doesn't happen then kids might as well check their rights at the door because other teachers will feel compelled to push their beliefs on them without repercussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
Let me give you a bit of my history.

When I was going to school in the sixties and seventies I attended schools that either had a moment of prayer, prayer over the intercom, and the Pledge of Allegiance. Sometimes combinations of two or more. My father told me I didn't have to pray with the teacher or even pay attention to the one over the intercom. Later in the seventh grade I found out that I had the right not to say the pledge. I mainly thought the entire idea of forcing someone to say a rote pledge to a flag was silly, but I also objected to what I saw as coerced prayer. When I told my teacher that I was no longer going to stand and say the pledge and that no one was required to do so, he went ballistic. He told me that he was a vet, and that in his class I would stand. To make a long story short I was disciplined, berated, called names, threatened, and sent to the principals office where I was told to knock it off. Though the teacher was mad that I wouldn't say the pledge, the school was mad that I had let others in on the fact that they didn't have to say the pledge either. When my father heard about this, he could have told me to go along as well. He was a vet and he had many of the same sympathies as the teacher. What he did was to march down to school with me, get the teacher into the principals office, and then read them the riot act and tell them that he went to war just like my teacher, and it was to defend the constitutional rights of Americans and this country and that I had the right to not say the pledge. Needless to say I was left alone, though I still caught flack from my teacher and a few students.

Your father not only fought for the principles of this country but understood them.

BRAVO!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me give you a bit of my history.

When I was going to school in the sixties and seventies I attended schools that either had a moment of prayer, prayer over the intercom, and the Pledge of Allegiance. Sometimes combinations of two or more. My father told me I didn't have to pray with the teacher or even pay attention to the one over the intercom. Later in the seventh grade I found out that I had the right not to say the pledge. I mainly thought the entire idea of forcing someone to say a rote pledge to a flag was silly, but I also objected to what I saw as coerced prayer. When I told my teacher that I was no longer going to stand and say the pledge and that no one was required to do so, he went ballistic. He told me that he was a vet, and that in his class I would stand. To make a long story short I was disciplined, berated, called names, threatened, and sent to the principals office where I was told to knock it off. Though the teacher was mad that I wouldn't say the pledge, the school was mad that I had let others in on the fact that they didn't have to say the pledge either. When my father heard about this, he could have told me to go along as well. He was a vet and he had many of the same sympathies as the teacher. What he did was to march down to school with me, get the teacher into the principals office, and then read them the riot act and tell them that he went to war just like my teacher, and it was to defend the constitutional rights of Americans and this country and that I had the right to not say the pledge. Needless to say I was left alone, though I still caught flack from my teacher and a few students.

Because of my dad I learned that real patriotism is respecting the rights of others, not forcing your beliefs on unwilling school children. What's going on in Paul's school is similar. A good American and a good christian would know what the teacher did was wrong. The school has not stood up for the rights of their students, only the right of the teacher to violate those rights. Had my father not gone down and forced the school to acknowledge my rights and threaten the teacher with disciplinary action if he ever did it again it, would have sent a signal to other like minded individuals that the school was on their side and that they could do and preach as they please in their classroom.

Paul needs to take this to them and make it sting. It needs to be shown to other teachers and schools that this will not be tolerated. If it doesn't happen then kids might as well check their rights at the door because other teachers will feel compelled to push their beliefs on them without repercussion.

What a great story. A second bravo from me. :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RIGHT, the Board Attorney and the Supt. should be fired for a teacher doing wrong. Yeah!

By the way, once again, they addressed the matter, but until all you extremists get everybody on the Board of Ed, Supt., Mayor, teachers, etc, etc, etc fired or hung or whatever you looking for you will not stop crying.

If you would go back and take another look at my post, you will see that I never once said that I thought the Board Attorney or the Superintendent should be fired. I do think that they aren't taking enough responsibility for the situation. It is highly likely that they knew or suspected that something like this was going on, and yet they did not act. That theory, at this point, will be all but impossible to prove, but it is still likely.

Your second comment is foolish. First of all, I am not an "extremist." I will use the term "we," but it is referring to those that would like to see the teacher punished for what he did, not your definition of extremists. "We" do not wish to see anyone hung, nor the BOE, Supt., Mayor, or teachers fired from their jobs. We want to see the Superintendent and Board take action to prevent this kind of thing happening in the future, and the teacher step up to the plate and apologize for what he did. The first step in this process is for the BOE to recognize that what the teacher did was wrong. Things can progress from there, but firstly the Superintendent and the Board Attorney need to admit, in public, that this kind of thing that the teacher did is unacceptable.

In future, please refrain from directing the attention of the thread away from the matter at hand by making the people who want to stop this kind of thing seem like horrible extremists. And read posts more carefully before you comment on them. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me give you a bit of my history.

When I was going to school in the sixties and seventies I attended schools that either had a moment of prayer, prayer over the intercom, and the Pledge of Allegiance. Sometimes combinations of two or more. My father told me I didn't have to pray with the teacher or even pay attention to the one over the intercom. Later in the seventh grade I found out that I had the right not to say the pledge. I mainly thought the entire idea of forcing someone to say a rote pledge to a flag was silly, but I also objected to what I saw as coerced prayer. When I told my teacher that I was no longer going to stand and say the pledge and that no one was required to do so, he went ballistic. He told me that he was a vet, and that in his class I would stand. To make a long story short I was disciplined, berated, called names, threatened, and sent to the principals office where I was told to knock it off. Though the teacher was mad that I wouldn't say the pledge, the school was mad that I had let others in on the fact that they didn't have to say the pledge either. When my father heard about this, he could have told me to go along as well. He was a vet and he had many of the same sympathies as the teacher. What he did was to march down to school with me, get the teacher into the principals office, and then read them the riot act and tell them that he went to war just like my teacher, and it was to defend the constitutional rights of Americans and this country and that I had the right to not say the pledge. Needless to say I was left alone, though I still caught flack from my teacher and a few students.

Because of my dad I learned that real patriotism is respecting the rights of others, not forcing your beliefs on unwilling school children. What's going on in Paul's school is similar. A good American and a good christian would know what the teacher did was wrong. The school has not stood up for the rights of their students, only the right of the teacher to violate those rights. Had my father not gone down and forced the school to acknowledge my rights and threaten the teacher with disciplinary action if he ever did it again it, would have sent a signal to other like minded individuals that the school was on their side and that they could do and preach as they please in their classroom.

Paul needs to take this to them and make it sting. It needs to be shown to other teachers and schools that this will not be tolerated. If it doesn't happen then kids might as well check their rights at the door because other teachers will feel compelled to push their beliefs on them without repercussion.

Thank you for sharing this. It was a wonderful read. Your dad did a wonderful job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Let me give you a bit of my history.

When I was going to school in the sixties and seventies I attended schools that either had a moment of prayer, prayer over the intercom, and the Pledge of Allegiance. Sometimes combinations of two or more. My father told me I didn't have to pray with the teacher or even pay attention to the one over the intercom. Later in the seventh grade I found out that I had the right not to say the pledge. I mainly thought the entire idea of forcing someone to say a rote pledge to a flag was silly, but I also objected to what I saw as coerced prayer. When I told my teacher that I was no longer going to stand and say the pledge and that no one was required to do so, he went ballistic. He told me that he was a vet, and that in his class I would stand. To make a long story short I was disciplined, berated, called names, threatened, and sent to the principals office where I was told to knock it off. Though the teacher was mad that I wouldn't say the pledge, the school was mad that I had let others in on the fact that they didn't have to say the pledge either. When my father heard about this, he could have told me to go along as well. He was a vet and he had many of the same sympathies as the teacher. What he did was to march down to school with me, get the teacher into the principals office, and then read them the riot act and tell them that he went to war just like my teacher, and it was to defend the constitutional rights of Americans and this country and that I had the right to not say the pledge. Needless to say I was left alone, though I still caught flack from my teacher and a few students.

Because of my dad I learned that real patriotism is respecting the rights of others, not forcing your beliefs on unwilling school children. What's going on in Paul's school is similar. A good American and a good christian would know what the teacher did was wrong. The school has not stood up for the rights of their students, only the right of the teacher to violate those rights. Had my father not gone down and forced the school to acknowledge my rights and threaten the teacher with disciplinary action if he ever did it again it, would have sent a signal to other like minded individuals that the school was on their side and that they could do and preach as they please in their classroom.

Paul needs to take this to them and make it sting. It needs to be shown to other teachers and schools that this will not be tolerated. If it doesn't happen then kids might as well check their rights at the door because other teachers will feel compelled to push their beliefs on them without repercussion.

Thank you for sharing this. It was a wonderful read. Your dad did a great job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul
RIGHT, the Board Attorney and the Supt. should be fired for a teacher doing wrong. Yeah!

By the way, once again, they addressed the matter, but until all you extremists get everybody on the Board of Ed, Supt., Mayor, teachers, etc, etc, etc fired or hung or whatever you looking for you will not stop crying.

No, they should be fired for failing to correct indefensible statement made by their employee in open class, for failing to institute quality control, for failing to advise the student body that attacks on the student or the teacher for that matter would not be tolerated, for being thoroughly disrespectful to parents who obviously had a just complaint, and for being foolish enough to think that a series of remarks this far out of line would not get major press coverage highly unfavorable to themselves and the entity they represent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Dave Thompson
No, they should be fired for failing to correct indefensible statement made by their employee in open class, for failing to institute quality control, for failing to advise the student body that attacks on the student or the teacher for that matter would not be tolerated, for being thoroughly disrespectful to parents who obviously had a just complaint, and for being foolish enough to think that a series of remarks this far out of line would not get major press coverage highly unfavorable to themselves and the entity they represent.

I am the guy that posted the story about my own experience. I hope it at least in some way explained my interest in the matter.

Has your son been attacked publicly because of his stance, outside of these forums? I'm curious if there has been some retribution focus on him and how you are handling it.

I don't know if you follow other such cases in other states. There are a few where the kids have endured unyielding harrassment. A common thread seems to be school officials condoning the punishment by doing nothing about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul
I am the guy that posted the story about my own experience. I hope it at least in some way explained my interest in the matter.

Has your son been attacked publicly because of his stance, outside of these forums? I'm curious if there has been some retribution focus on him and how you are handling it.

I don't know if you follow other such cases in other states. There are a few where the kids have endured unyielding harrassment. A common thread seems to be school officials condoning the punishment by doing nothing about it.

Yes, Matthew has been attacked verbally. The Jersey Journal ran a story about how he was being verbally abused while they were interviewing him outside the school. He even received one death threat.

I read a lot of these posts quickly, but I took some time to read yours carefully just now. Like others, I am moved. If you can, please pass on my admiration and thanks to your father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest qetzal
NO, he somehow thought that Matt did not need/or want him there.

Very suspect. <_<

Did you read Mr. LaClair's post? It says quite plainly that the principal refused Matthew LaClair's request for his parents to be present at the meeting. Are you saying Mr. LaClair outright lied in that post?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am the guy that posted the story about my own experience. I hope it at least in some way explained my interest in the matter.

Has your son been attacked publicly because of his stance, outside of these forums? I'm curious if there has been some retribution focus on him and how you are handling it.[/qupte]

Matthew apparently got a death threat that was handled by police (but still, a death threat o.O), which pretty much overshadows the verbal attacks I'm sure he had to deal with too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...