Feeding Frenzy

[Guest GOD]

Fair enough. Good post.

Now just consider the following. You don't have to argue the point.

You're saying a human being can't be the product of evolution because a human being is too complex. But then how do you explain the existence of God, which would have to be the most complicated entity of all (if God can even be called an entity)? Moreover, if you haven't read evolutionary theory in detail from its proponents and practitioners, may there's more to the story than you realize.

You may not be convinced, but the scientific community is, and what is more, evolutionary theory is being applied with real-world benefits. You may use those applications one day, and more likely you already have. Just think about it, and if you really want to understand this issue, read up on it.

Thanks again for a good post.

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All this nonsense can and should stop. The bottom line is that nobody knows anything for sure, NOBODY.

That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinion, beliefs and theories.

[Guest Paul]

"If you really want to understand this issue"  ??  I love your smug, condescending attitude.  Here's a news flash, the "scientific community" is also made up of many prominent intelligent design proponents.

    "How do I explain the existence of God" ??  Is that your retort to "a human being is too complex to have evolved" ??

    The "scientific community" is full of atheistic Darwiniacs  and I've read some of their rediculous papers.

    If you're an atheist, I think it's safe to say you won't write an article supporting intelligent design. Even you should be smart enough to understand that.

    The Darwiniacs cannot explain how an eye evolved (among other things). For an eye to have evolved, there had to be a clear understanding of the finished product, there's too many complex components to have occured by happenstance.

    Your refusal to acknowledge this fact simply shows up the hollowness of your argument.

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Never mind. I'll know better from now on.

[Guest Radagast]

All this nonsense can and should stop. The bottom line is that nobody knows anything for sure, NOBODY.

That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinion, beliefs and theories.

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I tend to agree with you. However, this board exists for entertainment purposes and as a kind of therapy. Angry people get thier anger out. Thoughtful people get their thoughts out. No one comes here to learn anything.

[Guest WilliamK]

"If you really want to understand this issue"  ??  I love your smug, condescending attitude.  Here's a news flash, the "scientific community" is also made up of many prominent intelligent design proponents.

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No, it isn't. Intelligent Design is regarded as pseudoscience far and wide, both inside and outside the "scientific community", but especially inside. Actual scientists who support it are exceedingly rare, be they prominent or otherwise. And I would also point out that there's really only one ID supporting scientist, William Dembski, who could reasonably be considered prominent at all. And his prominence is only as an outspoken ID proponent, not for his scientific achievments. In otherwords, he's prominent as a pseudoscientist, not as a scientist.

    "How do I explain the existence of God" ??  Is that your retort to "a human being is too complex to have evolved" ??

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It's a good point. Do you have an answer for it? A big problem with creationism is that postulating the existince of a creator merely replaces one question ("Where did the universe come from?"), with an even more difficult one ("Where did a being capable of creating a universe come from?"). That you perfer to just smirk nastily and try to insult the questioner doesn't make the question any less valid.

    The "scientific community" is full of atheistic Darwiniacs  and I've read some of their rediculous papers.

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What? I thought it was "also made up of many prominent intelligent design proponents". Why try to gain credibility for your bunkum by associating it with the scientific community, then attempt to discredit that very same community? Could it be that creationists themselves recognize the integrity and respectability of science, even as they try to discredit it? Could it be that this integrity and respectability is, in fact, the very thing that makes science a threat to their own world view? That they attack science not because they believe it is wrong, but because they know it is right?

    If you're an atheist, I think it's safe to say you won't write an article supporting intelligent design. Even you should be smart enough to understand that.

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Of course. ID is a purely religious idea. Not a scientific one. There's no more reason for an atheist to support ID than for him to support the idea of Promethius stealing fire from the gods and giving it to man.

    The Darwiniacs cannot explain how an eye evolved (among other things). For an eye to have evolved, there had to be a clear understanding of the finished product, there's too many complex components to have occured by happenstance.

    Your refusal to acknowledge this fact simply shows up the hollowness of your argument.

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Or, his refusal to "acknowledge this fact" may be due to its not being a fact at all. The evolution of the eye has, in fact, been reasonably explained in evolutionary terms. There are actual extant examples of every intermediate stage of development.

See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html

[Guest Guest]

I've read most all the post on this subject and those claiming to be "Aethists" are few. There are a great deal of practcing "Christians" who feel the teacher was in the wrong.

    I don't feel the teacher should be fired but repremanded and told not to do it again. If he does, he's gone and it was more than just mentioning god and you know it.

  I love the way that anyone who disagrees with you is "Anit-God" and mean spirited.  I am at best an agnostic, but I don't harbor any ill will towards you because you are a Christain. I must say that you are not helping your cause.

Merry Christmas.

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I guess you need to re-read all of the messages again. For some reason, Atheists don't say they are atheists? Why is that?

[Guest Guest]

There's another common thread among the "loony left Darwiniacs"... all the evidence is on our side, not yours. I guess reality really DOES have a liberal bias, huh?

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Evidence is on our side? this is hillarious! Prove to me that the Bible is wrong? Where is Christ's body? If you like the idea that you came from monkey...that's okay with me...I know I didn't! How about proving that humans came from the monkeys? You know by using the scientific method...

[Guest Guest]

Fair enough. Good post.

Now just consider the following. You don't have to argue the point.

You're saying a human being can't be the product of evolution because a human being is too complex. But then how do you explain the existence of God, which would have to be the most complicated entity of all (if God can even be called an entity)? Moreover, if you haven't read evolutionary theory in detail from its proponents and practitioners, may there's more to the story than you realize.

You may not be convinced, but the scientific community is, and what is more, evolutionary theory is being applied with real-world benefits. You may use those applications one day, and more likely you already have. Just think about it, and if you really want to understand this issue, read up on it.

Thanks again for a good post.

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In case you don't know Paul, God is God, he has no beginning and no ending...There is no need to explain the existence of God, he always was. That's it! No matter what you atheist say, nothing and no one will change that. Stop trying to change people's mind. The majority of the people in this country believe in God whether the LaClairs like it or not. Deal with it!

[Guest Guest]

All this nonsense can and should stop. The bottom line is that nobody knows anything for sure, NOBODY.

That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinion, beliefs and theories.

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And they are NOT entitled to try to place those opinions in the impressionable young minds of a captive audience under the guise of education.

Now put YOUR attention on DC where we REALLY need help!

[Bryan]

Fair enough. Good post.

Now just consider the following. You don't have to argue the point.

You're saying a human being can't be the product of evolution because a human being is too complex. But then how do you explain the existence of God, which would have to be the most complicated entity of all (if God can even be called an entity)?

Who (other than the Mormons) says God evolved?

Anything may be called an entity within the standard definition of the term, BTW (minor point, but it may assist with effective communication).

One odd thing in mathematics is that infinities are actually fairly simple. An omni-infinite god, IOW, might be far simpler than you suppose.

Moreover, if you haven't read evolutionary theory in detail from its proponents and practitioners, may there's more to the story than you realize.

Ditto for theology. Have you read (Richard) Swinburne or Plantinga?

You may not be convinced, but the scientific community is, and what is more, evolutionary theory is being applied with real-world benefits. You may use those applications one day, and more likely you already have. Just think about it, and if you really want to understand this issue, read up on it.

This guy apparently read up on it.

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/08/07/...ins/index1.html

[Guest Guest]

So who, or what, made god, if he made everything else?

[Guest 2smart4u]

Never mind. I'll know better from now on.

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Ha !! Typical radical left strategy. When faced with a question you can't answer without admitting you're wrong, feign frustration and say "never mind".

[Guest 2smart4u]

So who, or what, made god, if he made everything else?

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Stick with Sesame Street, you're in over your head.

[Strife767]

Your smugness is laughable. Only a diehard Darwiniac would think that the eye was the result of an evolutionary accident, that there was no intelligence involved in the process. The individuality of DNA, finger prints, irises, etc. , no intelligent design anywhere, right ??

You call me smug while you arrogantly ignore the evidence I provided you with--how typical of a fundie.

This conversation with you is over until/unless you gain the ability to open your mind to the evidence instead of sticking your fingers in your ears. I know when I'm talking to a brick wall who will ignore anything he doesn't want to see.

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[Guest Guest]

In case you don't know Paul, God is God, he has no beginning and no ending...There is no need to explain the existence of God, he always was.  That's it! No matter what you atheist say, nothing and no one will change that. Stop trying to change people's mind. The majority of the people in this country believe in God whether the LaClairs like it or not. Deal with it!

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I for one would like for you to prove the existence of God if you are going to use your God as a reason to determine how I should live my life!

[Strife767]

All this nonsense can and should stop. The bottom line is that nobody knows anything for sure, NOBODY.

Fact of the matter--we are as sure of evolution as we are of gravity, scientifically speaking.

Evolution does not explain, and does not attempt or _presume_ to explain, the origin of life. This is a big, fat, dishonest strawman. The Theory of Evolution (ToE) explains how life progressed after it 'starts.' The fundie crosshairs should lie on abiogenesis, not evolution, if they want to whine about science's conflict with their faith when it comes to the origin of life.

That's why everyone is entitled to their own opinion, beliefs and theories.

Sure they are. But that doesn't mean one's opinion etc. can't be 100% wrong. For someone to just blindly say things as ridiculous as "evolution never happened" or "there is no evidence of evolution" is just plain wrong. I don't care what you believe--that is an inaccurate statement, plain and simple.

P.S. As much as fundies will whine about evolution being anti-God, it isn't. The does not exclude a god at all, for the reason I mentioned above. Whether or not a god created life, evolution provides a VERY thorough understanding of 'what happens next.'

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[Guest WilliamK]

In case you don't know Paul, God is God, he has no beginning and no ending...There is no need to explain the existence of God, he always was.

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If you are going to propose that something has existed forever, would it not be far more sensible to start with something that can at least be demonstrated to have existed at all?

That's it! No matter what you atheist say, nothing and no one will change that. Stop trying to change people's mind. The majority of the people in this country believe in God whether the LaClairs like it or not. Deal with it!

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There are other countries in which a majority believe in different gods, or no gods at all. And there was a time, before Christianity and Judaism existed, when no one at all believed in your god. Had you been raised in one of those times or places, it is very likely that you would be posessed of whatever was the local dominant religion, and would likely be just as convinced of its correctness. Is "truth" different in those times and places, or is it, perhaps, that what majorities believe is a rather poor indicator of reality?

History is replete with examples of majorities being wrong. And since no one religion can claim a majority worldwide, it is necessarily true that the majority of people in the world are following a wrong religion. I think it quite likely that all religions are wrong. So, I will instead stick with science and my own reasoning. It isn't perfect, but it has a MUCH better track record than any religion, both historically and in regards to how it has served me personally. Much better to work towards reducing my ignorance than to cling to archaic beliefs that serve only to hide and protect it.

As for demanding that atheists stop trying to change people's minds, I would like to point out that atheists have as much right to proselytize as anyone else, although it would be equally wrong to do so in a public school classroom.

[Guest Paul]

In case you don't know Paul, God is God, he has no beginning and no ending...There is no need to explain the existence of God, he always was.  That's it! No matter what you atheist say, nothing and no one will change that. Stop trying to change people's mind. The majority of the people in this country believe in God whether the LaClairs like it or not. Deal with it!

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By that logic, we would all still believe that the earth is flat. No, I think I'll keep reading and learning, and speaking out in favor of education and knowledge. As the world becomes more complex, and the human population continues to grow, progress in understanding and civility are essential to our hope for our grandchildren's futures.

[Guest Paul]

I tend to agree with you. However, this board exists for entertainment purposes and as a kind of therapy. Angry people get thier anger out. Thoughtful people get their thoughts out. No one comes here to learn anything.

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I respectfully disagree. Some actually do come here to learn something. (Not that you don't have a point, all the same.)

[Guest Paul]

Ha !!  Typical radical left strategy.  When faced with a question you can't answer without admitting you're wrong, feign frustration and say "never mind".

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No, the problem is you haven't read anywhere near enough on evolutionary theory to draw any reasoned conclusions. I'm sure all your arguments dismissing evolutionary theory seem profoundly wise and clever to you, but if you'll read the professional literature on evolution (I've just scratched the surface), you'll see that those arguments don't stand. So instead of responding with your usual "oh yeah!" why not read the literature?

I acknowledged the civility and apparently openness (for a change) in the tone of your previous post, and invited you to do some reading, at which point you reverted to your attack-dog mode. I had earlier quoted a passage from Proverbs, and have decided to heed the wisdom contained therein. So please forgive me if I don't respond again.

[Guest Paul]

Have you read (Richard) Swinburne or Plantinga?

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/08/07/...ins/index1.html

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I have not, and my living room has a stack of books in it that I'd like to get to. But please tell us more about Swinburne and Plantinga.

[Guest Keith-Marshall.Mo]

If you are going to propose that something has existed forever, would it not be far more sensible to start with something that can at least be demonstrated to have existed at all?

There are other countries in which a majority believe in different gods, or no gods at all. And there was a time, before Christianity and Judaism existed, when no one at all believed in your god. Had you been raised in one of those times or places, it is very likely that you would be posessed of whatever was the local dominant religion, and would likely be just as convinced of its correctness. Is "truth" different in those times and places, or is it, perhaps, that what majorities believe is a rather poor indicator of reality?

History is replete with examples of majorities being wrong. And since no one religion can claim a majority worldwide, it is necessarily true that the majority of people in the world are following a wrong religion. I think it quite likely that all religions are wrong. So, I will instead stick with science and my own reasoning. It isn't perfect, but it has a MUCH better track record than any religion, both historically and in regards to how it has served me personally. Much better to work towards reducing my ignorance than to cling to archaic beliefs that serve only to hide and protect it.

As for demanding that atheists stop trying to change people's minds, I would like to point out that atheists have as much right to proselytize as anyone else, although it would be equally wrong to do so in a public school classroom.

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Well said sir! Well said!

[Bryan]

See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html

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A public broadcasting site that includes in its text a lukewarm-favorable reference to the sub-optimal design is not intelligent design argument?

My tax dollars at work for anti-god proselytizing*?

*if I defined it as do many in this forum

[Guest Guest]

I guess you need to re-read all of the messages again. For some reason, Atheists don't say they are atheists? Why is that?

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Because unlike the fundies, atheists don't go around screaming about their personal beliefs and try to shove it down the throats of everyone else?

[Guest Guest]

Evidence is on our side? this is hillarious! Prove to me that the Bible is wrong? Where is Christ's body? If you like the idea that you came from monkey...that's okay with me...I know I didn't!  How about proving that humans came from the monkeys? You know by using the scientific method...

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Where is Christ's body? Huh? Where is the body of anyone who supposedly lived some 2,000 years ago? They are all long gone through decay. Stupid fundie.

[Bryan]

Because unlike the fundies, atheists don't go around screaming about their personal beliefs and try to shove it down the throats of everyone else?

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Never heard of a Marxist-Leninist revolution, eh?