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Guest Paul

Science and religion

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Guest Guest_Paul_*
Ad hominem, unrelated, and entirely without basis.

I know exactly what you mean! In fact, there's this guy who goes by '2smart4u' who won't respond to any actually arguments and instead acts as though his opposition 'smokes weed' and has some hidden agenda rather than attempting to understand their position and methodologies.

I'm sure we can provided numerous anecdotal stories about this particular subject for either side of the argument, but in the end it has absolutely no bearing on the subject of evolution or faith. This is akin to arguing that because children believe in Santa Claus and that belief brings them great joy every year as well as a reason to behave, that Santa Claus is real.

You mean Santa Claus is not real ??? Tell me you're kidding !!!

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Guest 2smart4u
Chimps' cranial cavities are no bigger than about 390 cc's.  Humans are no smaller than about 1400 cc's.  So any skull that resembles a chimps or humans that is within that range has to be something other than a chimp or modern human.  They were found in the fossil record from smallest to largest leading up to the present day human skull.  They represent the evolution of our primate ancestors leading up to modern man.  There is no species alive that has a cranial cavity within the 390 to 1400 cc range.  There has never been a modern human skull found in the fossil record that was 200,000 years or older.  If you can't figure it out you either don't have the intelligence to figure it out or you choose not to consider the evidence which makes one question your intelligence.

A rediculous conclusion drawn from an insignificant, inaccurate bit of information. Suggestion....... stop relying on radical left authors who routiinely make up lies to suit their radical agendas.

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Guest Ederlore

"Why are there tens of thousands of Christian scientists who believe in both evolution and the bible if science is trying to take God out of our lives?"

My question is: Why are millions of fundamentalist "Christians" trying to take science out of our lives? They remind me of the gentleman who ran the Patent Office back in 1898 stating that the Office should be closed because everything that could be invented had been invented. I guess the fundies think that since they look to their Bible for answers to all their questions, the rest of us don't need science either. Yes, I put Christians in quotation marks because I really don't regard them as real followers of Jesus. Most sects of Christianity today are actually the followers of Paul and his interpretation of what Jesus taught. The fundies have basically kicked the Sermon on the Mount to the curb and hysterically embraced Revelations. Not all sects of Christianity have lost their collective minds and souls but the most rabid and vocal ones have proven that their concept of religion is really nothing more than blind, unquestioning cultism.

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Guest Guest
Your egotism must drive your family crazy.  You quote all this psudo-scientific  nonsense as if it were cold facts.  "1000 piece jigsaw puzzle" ??  Is that an analogy taken from a scientific journal or just your own dreamworld. Until someone, somewhere comes up with direct archiological evidence that man evolved from some lower life form, evolution remains a theory, no more no less.

The theory of evolution is merely an explanation that accounts for what people observe in Creation with their God-given senses and intellect. It was never something concocted as an attack on religion. This theory has been overwhelmingly supported by evidence over the decades and has led to great strides in understanding biology and medicine.

I do not understand why this seems such a threat to some Christians.

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Guest Wholly Cow
Why so hostile? I showed no hostility to you.

And your right "I don't necessarily catagorize things the way you do, and  that at the same time I recognize that you may or may not see what I do as "celebrating Christmas." Do you know if I am a Buddhist or not? I could be a follower of Allah for all you know. I think that to carry on this facade and then turn around and celebrate Christmas -with all its religious conotations- that even the youngest of "Christian" children understand- is wrong.

How old was your son when you told him the truth about Christmas?

(Santa Claus ) I mean. One doesn't exist without the other.

I don't believe in god, but I kinda celebrate christmas....

It's pretty much a celebration of the shortest day of the year, winter solstice, that was taken over by the christians as a way to S**K in some heathens. And over the centuries has been transformed into this commercial spectacle of hypocricy we now call christmas.

My employer gives me a couple days off, so why not celebrate?

Is there some religion connected to this holiday (Holy Day)? Perhaps, but I don't care what others do at this time of year as long as it's not forced down my throat.

I all honesty, I'd rather take these days off at some other time of year, and I'd rather not deal with all this commercial crap that this time of year has turned into, but a minority of our population seem to think that Christianity is the national religion

I also, due to years and years of hearing it, use the word god in exclaimations because using f**k is not polite, but god is. So just consider the two interchangeable. :P

As for far right politically, I'm a registered republican, but currently terribly embarrased by the politicians who call themselves republican, so often vote for other parties as long as that candidate more closely represents what republican USED to mean. :blush:

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Guest Slayer
The theory of evolution is merely an explanation that accounts for what people observe in Creation with their God-given senses and intellect.  It was never something concocted as an attack on religion.  This theory has been overwhelmingly supported by evidence over the decades and has led to great strides in understanding biology and medicine.

I do not understand why this seems such a threat to some Christians.

Cool, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

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Guest Paul
A rediculous conclusion drawn from an insignificant, inaccurate bit of information.  Suggestion....... stop relying on radical left authors who routiinely make up lies to suit their radical agendas.

I thought there was hope, but I leave 2smart with the wisdom of Proverbs 14:7.

"Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge."

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Guest Paul
"Why are there tens of thousands of Christian scientists who believe in both evolution and the bible if science is trying to take God out of our lives?"

My question is: Why are millions of fundamentalist "Christians" trying to take science out of our lives?  They remind me of the gentleman who ran the Patent Office back in 1898 stating that the Office should be closed because everything that could be invented had been invented.  I guess the fundies think that since they look to their Bible for answers to all their questions,  the rest of us don't need science either.  Yes, I put Christians in quotation marks because I really don't regard them as real followers of Jesus.  Most sects of Christianity today are actually the followers of Paul and his interpretation of what Jesus taught.  The fundies have basically kicked the Sermon on the Mount to the curb and hysterically embraced Revelations.  Not all sects of Christianity have lost their collective minds and souls but the most rabid and vocal ones have proven that their concept of religion is really nothing more than blind, unquestioning cultism.

The irony is, they're trying to take religion out of our lives, too. The word religion comes from the Latin words re (to look upon all things) and ligare (to bind together, as a ligament does). Religion is humanity's attempt to take in all things and fit all into a coherent whole. The enterprise is grand, but to succeed it must also be humble.

There is nothing grand or humble about hard-line religious fundamentalism. It s**ks the soul and spirit completely out of religion, which is why it is so prone to turning ugly. One need only read the venom pouring out of the fundamentalists who have posted here to see this clearly.

There is also nothing of re or ligare in it. Fundamentalists think they worship God, but in the end all they worship is their own opinion. This situation is a perfect example of that. The arrogant person hates nothing more than being caught dead-to-rights.

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I just read about Matthew in the NY Times and wanted to lend my support to his efforts. His actions demonstrate the value of critical thinking...which is the main purpose of education. Education is the opportunity to be exposed to the vast amount of ideas about our world, to consider many points of view and their origins and then to weigh those opinions, or theories or positions using a mind trained to discern the validity and the intention of those viewpoints.

Clear thinking and precise expression of those thoughts is what the world so desperately needs. Bravo, Matthew!

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Guest Guest
  You asked why God made the world like this, maybe one of the mysteries to test our faith. You should be grateful that he did or you wouldn't be here!!! And you obviously aren't as smart as you think you are or you would know the moral to that simple story!!!

Indeed Allah is great! Allah created you and that's why you're here.

I'm glad you have finally accepted the teachings of the greatest prophet of all time (much greater than the lesser prophet Jesus) Muhammad and follow the almighty Allah!

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Guest Guest
No one is denying that species evolve over the millennium; birds grow shorter/longer beaks, etc.,  that's what the Museum of Natural History exhibit shows.

    What  Darwiniacs claim is man evolved from a worm that crawled out of the ocean a billion years ago. Their goal is to take God out of the world,

Sorry no one can take god out of this world because god doesn't exist to begin with. To say one's goal is to take god out of this world is like saying you want to take godzilla out of this world. Can't be done. Neither is there in the first place.

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Guest Guest
It's so nice of you to grace us with your presence.  I'm curious, just what are you "still evolving" into. My guess is the Pillsbury Doughboy.

You just touched on one of the greatest tragedy of humanity.

The human gene pool is being polluted by ignorant and bigoted christofundies like yourself, who tend to breed more than the normal human beings. As a result, modern human beings may be (d)evolving into sub-humans not dissimilar to yourself. So sad.

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Guest WilliamK
2smart 2 spell archaeology correctly I guess. Your critical thinking skills aren't much better than your command of English.

That "archaeology" was misspelled is of little significance. We all make spelling errors and typos. But that it is the wrong science entirely, and that this error is repeated in two posts, is much more telling.

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Guest Xmas Grinch
I don't believe in god, but I kinda celebrate christmas....

It's pretty much a celebration of the shortest day of the year, winter solstice, that was taken over by the christians as a way to S**K in some heathens.  And over the centuries has been transformed into this commercial spectacle of hypocricy we now call christmas.

My employer gives me a couple days off, so why not celebrate?

Is there some religion connected to this holiday (Holy Day)?  Perhaps, but I don't care what others do at this time of year as long as it's not forced down my throat.

I all honesty, I'd rather take these days off at some other time of year, and I'd rather not deal with all this commercial crap that this time of year has turned into, but a minority of our population seem to think that Christianity is the national religion

I also, due to years and years of hearing it, use the word god in exclaimations because using f**k is not polite, but god is.  So just consider the two interchangeable.  :P

As for far right politically, I'm a registered republican, but currently terribly embarrased by the politicians who call themselves republican, so often vote for other parties as long as that candidate more closely represents what republican USED to mean.  :)

True the commercialism s**ks --but you're a little too smug about about everything else.

P.S. --Winter Solstice is not 12/25

P.P.S-- You have pretty much the same problem as Paul. You don't beleive in God yet you celebrate Christmas. What is it the celebration of?

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Guest Charles Darwin
I just read about Matthew in the NY Times and wanted to lend my support to his efforts.  His actions demonstrate the value of critical thinking...which is the main purpose of education.  Education is the opportunity to be exposed to the vast amount of ideas about our world, to consider many points of view and their origins and then to weigh those opinions, or theories or positions using a mind trained to discern the validity and the intention of those viewpoints.

Clear thinking and precise expression of those thoughts is what the world so desperately needs.  Bravo, Matthew!

Can you name one other 16 year old "clear - critical thinker?

Education is the opportunity to be exposed to the vast amount of ideas about our world, to consider many points of view and their origins and then to weigh those opinions, or theories or positions using a mind trained to discern the validity and the intention of those viewpoints.

Clear thinking and precise expression of those thoughts is what the world so desperately needs. Bravo, Matthew!

The boy was getting exposed to a vast amount of ideas. I guess his mind wasn't trained to discern the validty and the intention of such. This kid don't know s**t from shinola about this subject or any other --did you at that age?

Consider many points of view and their origins.

That's the problem. Because this guy is a teacher no one likes the origin. I bet if he were non- christian people here would be bending over backwards to accomadate and "understand" him.

The oppurtunity to be exposed to the vast amount of ideas about our world is being lost here.

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Guest Guest
No, he's talking about evolution, not cosmology.  You'd want to hear from a cosmologist rather than an evolutionary biologist about the Big Bang.

It's a hard question, as the Big Bang is not an explosion of matter or energy, but rather the expansion of spacetime from a pointlike singularity.  This means that time began with the Big Bang, which makes it difficult to make sense of your question since there was no "before" the Big Bang.

Look sizzle chits, the original post by superwick says the guy comments on the big bang.

I really don't care whether the big bang is an explosion of matter/energy or an expansion of spacetime. The question was simple, especially for one of the "greatest thinkers" of our time as superwick ranks him.

What set the explosion/expansion process in motion? And don't give me the argument that there was no "before" the big bang. Certainly the creator would be outside of the constraints of spacetime.

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Guest Guest
Cool, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

Please enlighten me then. Why is the theory of evolution not just an example of people using their God-given senses and intellect to help explain what they observe in Creation? And why is this theory such a threat to the teachings of Christ?

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Guest Calybos
A rediculous conclusion drawn from an insignificant, inaccurate bit of information.  Suggestion....... stop relying on radical left authors who routiinely make up lies to suit their radical agendas.

So having been proven wrong, you ignore the evidence, and then insist that there IS no evidence.

You're certainly giving a fine accounting of what "blind faith" means.

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Guest Paul
True the commercialism s**ks --but you're a little too smug about about everything else.

P.S. --Winter Solstice is not 12/25

P.P.S-- You have pretty much the same problem as Paul. You don't beleive in God yet you celebrate Christmas.  What is it the celebration of?

The celebration is about being lucky enough not to be a grinch, among many other things. Life can be a wonderful party, but if you don't want to join the party, that's up to you.

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Guest Patriot
You just touched on one of the greatest tragedy of humanity.

The human gene pool is being polluted by ignorant and bigoted christofundies like yourself, who tend to breed more than the normal human beings. As a result, modern human beings may be (d)evolving into sub-humans not dissimilar to yourself. So sad.

Interesting. That was Hitler's logic for slaughtering millions.

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Guest Keith - Marshall,Mo

I find it interesting that if someone believes in evolution, by default they don't belive in God.

That's absurd, maybe it just means that things didn't happen exactly the way the "Bible" says they did. The "Bible" which has been embellished or certain books removed by mere mortals.

Maybe "evolution" is really what God intended. The plain truth is ...nobody really knows for sure, not scientists and certainly not Christains or any other religeon for that matter. There is certainly more "evidence" that leans towards evolution then leans towards "Adam and Eve". I find astouding that in this day and age people are willing to dictate, legislate and even kill others for and idea that has never offered one shred of existence. Yes, yes I know it's called faith.

I often wonder why a supposedly loving and benovolent god would "create" a fallable creature and then punish them for being fallable. That's like buying an ant farm, taking the lid off and squashing the ants that crawl out to punishing them for predicable behavior.

That still doesn't mean that there is no god. Considering the amazing strides science has made in the last 100 years yet we are still no closer to knowing the "Absolute Truth" but in the extremes we are willing to kill for and idea that has yet to be proven. That being said, why would a kind and loving god continue to let some kill in his name? They only thing I know for sure is that god certainly doesn't need my help judging people.

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Guest Guest
Interesting.  That was Hitler's logic for slaughtering millions.

No. Hitler's logic for the Holocaust was the tired old "Jews killed Jesus" line. He was able to rally the masses in Germany by resorting to religious bigotry.

Yet another reason why government and religion should never be mixed together.

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Guest Philistine
Since you've read so much on the subject, then you must be aware of the fact that there is no evidence to support evolution.  After one hundred years of serious archiology around the world, no one has ever found the "missing link" to prove man has evolved from an ape. Many remains of early man have been found and also that of monkeys and apes, but not one fragment of a "missing link. Until physical evidence is found, evolution is mearly a theory, and an unproven one at that.

Dont you read National Geographic? Its readily available and produced in America.

Hell, we even get it here in New Zealand. It has pictures so reading is not required.

Look for an issue thats titled "Found, Earliest Child" 3.3 -million-year-old bones discovered.(Nov 2006 Issue) It shows a forensic reconstruction of the infants face and whaddayaknow, it looks kinda like a human and kinda like an ape.

Yes, evolution is a theory. A theory that does everything a good scientific theory should do. It explains the evidence, it is parsimonious, you can use it to make predictions. Predictions like, if the H5N1 bird flu virus mutates it may become transmittable to humans. Or, through overuse, antibiotics will become less effective as pathogen mutations that are resistant replace their kin in the gene pool. Should take about one human generation. Oops, its happenning!

Scared yet?

I guess you can pray that evolution isnt true. Good luck. I'd prefer to face reality and back the scientific pursuit of actual knowledge.

Which brings me to the poor kid who felt it was wrong for a teacher to waste class time preaching his bronze-age philosophy as fact. (Talking about you Matthew)

Well done. Your Christian bretheren have not turned the other cheek which means they dont walk the talk. Have courage against these hippocrites. You are an American hero.

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Guest Philistine
I find it interesting that if someone believes in evolution, by default they don't belive in God.

That's absurd, maybe it just means that things didn't happen exactly the way the "Bible" says they did. The "Bible" which has been embellished or certain books removed by mere mortals.

Maybe "evolution" is really what God intended. The plain truth is ...nobody really knows for sure, not scientists and certainly not Christains or any other religeon for that matter. There is certainly more "evidence" that leans towards evolution then leans towards "Adam and Eve". I find astouding that in this day and age people are willing to dictate, legislate and even kill others for and idea that has never offered one shred of existence. Yes, yes I know it's called faith.

  I often wonder why a supposedly loving and benovolent god would "create" a fallable creature and then punish them for being fallable. That's like buying an ant farm, taking the lid off and squashing the ants that crawl out to punishing them for predicable behavior.

    That still doesn't mean that there is no god. Considering the amazing strides science has made in the last 100 years yet we are still no closer to knowing the "Absolute Truth" but in the extremes we are willing to kill for and idea that has yet to be proven. That being said, why would a kind and loving god continue to let some kill in his name? They only thing I know for sure is that god certainly doesn't need my help judging people.

Nice logic Keith,

I like the ant farm analogy. This has also bothered me, when I was a believer. Its like giving a toddler razor blades to play with, utterly predictable and to do it would make you a sad sick malevolent bastard.

A lot like the god that the bible describes. Have you ever read that stuff? Shudder. God is a genocidal maniac, totally obsessed with sex, rape, infantcide, germ warfare, slavery and subjugation.

Of course it becomes understandable if you see gods personality as a projection of nomadic, land-hungry patriarchal, pastoral tribesmen coveting the holdings of more settled societies. It all makes sense that you would want to de-humanise your victims so as to ruthlessly dispossess them. You would want a god that favoured your tribe and found all others wanting. Yes man created god in his own image, not the other way around. Its so blindingly obvious.

There may be an ultimate being or conciousness. No atheist can 100% discount the possibility. It would be nice if there were. I dont believe for a moment that he/it/she/us will bear any resemblance whatsoever to the small man-shaped god of the bible.

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