Answers on Kearny HS teacher controversy

[Guest Guest]

Speaking of history: History is loaded with examples of nations that have torn themselves apart over religion. Catholics and Protestants in Britain and Ireland; Hindus, Muslims and their sects in India and Pakistan; the current disaster in Iraq; the list goes on and on and on throughout history.

Can anyone cite even one example of a nation that was torn apart by separating church and state? I don't think so. The principle is that the state will not establish or promote religion, but will leave all free to worship as they please on their time and in their own ways.

Given the clear and unwavering pattern throughout history, why would any sensible people want to do anything except what the Supreme Court has announced in cases like Engel v. Vitale? The only reason I can see is to push one's own views on others by the power of numbers, but that is not consistent with "liberty and justice for all." That is the principle and the issue of justice we are trying to defend.

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ENGEL V. VITALE

Justice Black delivered the opinion of the Court.

The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day:

Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessing upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country.

This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and legislative powers over the State's public school system. These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools," saying: "We believe that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program."...

We think that by using its public school system to encourage recitation of the Regents' prayer, the State of New York has adopted a practice wholly incon-sistent with the Establishment Clause. There can, of course, be no doubt that New York's program of daily classroom invocation of God's blessings as prescribed in the Regents' prayer is a religious activity. It is a solemn avowal of divine faith and supplication for the blessing of the Almighty. The nature of such a prayer has always been religious, none of the respondents has denied this and the trial court expressly so found...

The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.

It is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America. The Book of Common Prayer, which was created under governmental direction and which was approved by Acts of Parliament in 1548 and 1549, set out in minute detail the accepted form and content of prayer and other religious ceremonies to be used in the established, tax-supported Church of England...

What part of this opinion did the teacher violate?

[Guest Guest]

A prayer was not led in the classsroom.

The teacher was discussing his own beliefs, which I guess with the mutation of the church-state seperation in the constitution, you'll probably get him on.

I don't think anyone has proved that the teacher lied when confronted.

The teacher was told to stop these activities and has.

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It took 15 years to tell him to stop. This is typical Hudson County politics, if your connected you can do whatever you want including sending a kid to hell and not teaching what you were hired to teach.

What happened to teach history not religion. This guy should have been suspended for two months without pay. That would have been an appropriate sanction setting an example. Teach the subject or get out.

[Guest Guest_Janet_*]

If this was a Muslim teacher telling Christian kids they belong in hell, how many of his apologists would still be supporting him? None of them seems to want to answer that question, but it is a very important one, with implications in a great many directions.

Would anyone care to discuss those? Will any of the apologists answer the question honestly? I doubt it. And what does that say?

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I love pulled pork sandwiches. I drink liquor. I don't wear a head scarf. I do wear make-up. I am divorced, rarely go to church, support gay rights and a woman's right to an abortion. In short, if I had a nickel for every time an organized religion, be it Judaism, Catholicism, Baptist, Islam or other, told me I was going to hell, I'd be rich!! Which is why I respond to such statements regarding "going to hell," "the end of the world is near," etc. with a sigh, or even a giggle, and certainly don't take them seriously. And I doubt very much that any student in the class took Mr. P's statement(s) as fact either. The believers will believe, the non-believers will just roll their eyes. There is enough diversity in that school that the students understand that there are different viewpoints on religion or the lack thereof. So, in short, if a Muslim teacher told my child that he/she was going to hell, I would, frankly, go to the administration to ask them to tell the teacher to stop proselytizing in class, and then I would lmao.

[oldfart56]

It took 15 years to tell him to stop.  This is typical Hudson County politics, if your connected you can do whatever you want including sending a kid to hell and not teaching what you were hired to teach.

What happened to teach history not religion.  This guy should have been suspended for two months without pay.  That would have been an appropriate sanction setting an example.  Teach the subject or get out.

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1ST THE TEACHER "DIDTHE RIGHT THING" HE WAS NOT WRONG AND IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THAT { " M O V E "} GET OUT OF KEARNY AND GO TO CAL! THS WHERE YOU AND YOUR KIND SHOULD BE!!!

[Guest Guest]

It took 15 years to tell him to stop.  This is typical Hudson County politics, if your connected you can do whatever you want including sending a kid to hell and not teaching what you were hired to teach.

What happened to teach history not religion.  This guy should have been suspended for two months without pay.  That would have been an appropriate sanction setting an example.  Teach the subject or get out.

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Exactly how is this teacher "connected"?

[Guest Guest_Paul_*]

Luckily, President Clinton later took office and got back to the real work of maintaining the legality of killing partially-born babies while getting blow-jobs in the peoples' office.  Whew!  That Reagan prayer had me scared too.

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This post is a perfect example of the problem. Too many people do not understand how systems of law work. They look at the facts of particular cases instead of looking at the principle. That is one of many reasons our country has become so divided: the right abandoned what used to be a common commitment to legal principles under which our country flourished for more than 200 years. So when they don't like the result of a particular case, some people are willing to throw away the principle. This is especially characteristic of the right. That results in rule of men, not rule of law, exactly the opposite of what the Framers gave us and our Constitutional system demands. The writer here thinks he's making a good argument, I presume, but what he/she is really doing is illustrating exactly why this way of thinking undermines the democratic system.

[Guest Guest]

Perhaps you can explain to us, then, what critical thinking skills are enhanced by telling sixteen-year-olds that they belong in hell. I'd love to see an answer to that one!

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When I was young and impressionable growing up and attending school (I'm sure you can tell Catholic school - St. Cecilia's) the concept of a heaven and a hell served a very valid useful purpose. I'm not sure of the exact context, as I wasn't there, were you? I think more people should be aquainted with them, every religion has their own version of heaven and hell. Hopefully, this helps to make the world a more civilized place in which children grow up and are educated.

We constantly use them: what in hell?; everyone under heaven!; etc.

EDUCATION and especially CRITICAL THINKING are enhanced by different viewpoints! I understand there needs to be a seperation of Church and State.

Paul, if we didn't have different viewpoints why would we need lawyers?

Perhaps if more people grew up with a concept of heaven and hell; or even WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND it would be a better world!

THANK GOD WE LIVE IN AMERICA! EVERY DAY I THANK GOD MY ANCECTORS WERE PERSECUTED FOR THEIR RELIGION AND MOVED HERE!!

IT'S GREAT TO BE AN AMERICAN - I'm not so sure I still believe in a "Heaven" or a "Hell" yet, I do live my life realizing THAT WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND

In other words, I do have afear of GOD and it's not a bad thing! Get it???????

[Guest Guest]

The teacher expressed his religious opinions, sometimes as fact. Legally, it's the same thing.

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Hey Paul,

If this was an atheist teaching the class, and having a DISCUSSION like the one your son recorded. Would you be here today?

I guess not.

Stop hiding behind every excuse you can find, and admit. The issue is no longer what happen in that classroom, but you are out there to make an example of someone to try to proof your beliefs.

It's only a issue of Separation of Church and State because it did not go your way.

Show me how did he FORCED his beliefs upon the student. Show me where and when the RELIGIOUS activity took place.

He does not have any more DISCUSSION in the classroom, what else are you after?

[Guest Guest_Paul_*]

I am Paul LaClair, father of Matthew LaClair. I am opening this topic to invite all concerned, in whatever way they may be concerned, to ask questions and engage in a respectful and thoughtful discussion of this incident. I may post threads myself to initiate topics.

I am doing this because if people are going to discuss this, it should be discussed in a thoughtful and respectful way. There is no call for the vicious attacks that have been publicly posted against a young man whose actions were not motivated by self-interest, but by a passionate commitment to our Constitution, separation of church and state, the integrity and value of science, the quality of education and the rule of law. With all due respect to those who have presumed to know Matthew's motives --- who have not been the least bit respectful in some cases --- I am certain that I know him better than you do.

All appropriate and respectful questions will be answered. All personal attacks will be ignored.

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You can't get much farther right than Sean Hannity. Look what his followers are saying:

http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181731

The motivating issue here is that people like this teacher. That's OK, Anna's letter yesterday in the Star-Ledger is appropriate, but don't use it as an excuse to justify inexcusable behavior or attack people who've done nothing wrong.

Or must I say "I would prefer you didn't use it . . ." lest I be accused of ordering people what to do? Wouldn't matter, the accusations will be the same.

[Guest Mary]

Many people think that small violations of church-state separation are no big deal: What's the big deal that a teacher leads a prayer in a public school classroom, right? Who is harmed?

The problem with that way of thinking is that the Constitution sets forth the fundamental principles by which we relate to each other, both as groups and as individuals. Breach the principle in a small way at Kearny High, and soon it is breached all over the country (which is exactly what the radical right wants). The majority comes to assert itself as dominant over the majority. That is how democracy is supposed to work on public policy matters like taxes, but it is not how it is supposed to work with fundamental individual rights like religious freedom. The way I see it, and the way the Constitution sets it up, the tiniest religious minority should be as respected and as honored here as the majority religion. That is not what is happening in this instance. I (and others) keep asking the question, and none of Paszkiewicz's defenders will ever touch it: What would this look like if Paszkiewicz had been a Muslim telling Christian kids they're going to hell. It's all about the majority religion being forced on minorities through agencies of government.

Most people these days don't see that because the effects are not immediately obvious. I saw it begin to happen when Reagan led a prayer during his acceptance speech at the RNC in 1980. It chilled me to the bone, because I could see where it was heading, and sure enough, we see more and more encroachments, leading to the David Paszkiewicz's becoming so bold that they think they can get away with telling kids of different religious faiths that they belong in hell, because "it's no big deal." It is an outrage, and it all stems from not taking the principle seriously. Get enough of that, and we'll end up with sectarian divisions --- will it lead us to an Iraq situation? Maybe not, but it could. The point is, why violate the principle at all? Why can't people of every religious persuasion be content with practicing their religions in their own ways and on their own time, and allowing others to do the same?

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Paul- The majority of Kearny citizens have not been "harmed" by the words of teacher "P" because most are Christians themselves. They know the difference between preaching and just hearing ones opinions of religion. Maybe that is why it took 15 years for someone (your son) to feel offended and put a stop to it, which HAS been accomplished, I don't think anyone criticises your son for reporting this to the administration, I think that the majority of Kearny would not want ANY child harmed and would agree that knowing that just one child is harmed it should stop (which has been accomplished). I think we ALL agree that a warning to the teacher with possible termination should he continue to discuss "God" in school is the proper channels the administration should take. This is where the issue should have ended, knowing the mission was accomplished.

My heart is breaking over this, a respected and well loved man has been called horrible names by your supporters, while, a loving, fun, caring and talented child has been alienated, threatened, and called horrible names by his peers.

As a mother of a 16 year old son myself, I am appalled at the thought of the remote possibility that I would not be able to attend a meeting of adults with MY son without my being present. I am not a lawyer, I am only a high school graduated, and even I know that I have every right to attend such a meeting, I know I have every right to walk into school, sign a registry that I am on school property, and sit in on a class quietly and observe the class. And "God" help them if they try to stop me!

For the record-"You belong in hell" was a reference to himself and not to the students.

Now Paul, as far as this new can of worms you are trying to open, I have the PLEASURE of knowing many Muslim people. Some are dear friends, some are only acquaintances, and we have discussed our religions together often. I have asked questions to them and vise-a-Versa. I find it fascinating that we hold many similar beliefs. I am not offended by our differences. Every single Muslim person that I have had the pleasure to meet has been loving, caring, friendly, sincere, humorous, ect. ect. , and yes, they have feelings too! If KHS has a Muslim teacher on staff, I would not mind if during a discussion in class, he or she expressed their opinion on their beliefs, I welcome my son to know about different beliefs, it teaches love and tolerance.

So in answer to your question, if a 15 year veteran teacher, who is well loved and respected by the students of KHS, and "happens" to be Muslim, and has offended your son or any child, by expressing his opinion of belief (religion), I would support your son or any other child, by stopping it at once(just as you have). However, if you were to take steps further, as is the case with teacher "P", by creating a media circus in Kearny, up until that point, I will start to support the Muslim teacher.

As a final point, while I support your sons request to cease all religious dialog in school because it offends others and is against the law, I do not and will not support you if you should bring this issue to the courts for your financial benefit (the school budget has not been past for the last 8 years by the people of Kearny and would surely cause damage to an already struggling BOE), or worse, to have someones life, family and career destroyed.

To the people of Kearny- please, take a moment to reflect on this latest question of Paul LaClair's, really think about it, and please respond on this forum.

Paul asks:

"I (and others) keep asking the question, and none of Paszkiewicz's defenders will ever touch it: What would this look like if Paszkiewicz had been a Muslim telling Christian kids they're going to hell."

[Guest Guest_Paul_*]

Well Paul, that's were you run into trouble.  The question; was this teacher advocating a religion? Even using some of the "interpretations" of the Constitution you have an uphill battle.

Here is what the Constitution says about religion; Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Basically, the government can't establish an official or state religion and people are free to practice the religion of their choice.

It really says nothing about advocating religion, even if the teacher did this.

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The Supreme Court has held otherwise, judges from the left and right alike. Just because the radical right has its own spin on the Constitution does not mean it is the law. It is not.

[Guest Guest_Paul_*]

As far as your example of the muslim teacher goes.  It would probably play out in a very similar way.  Matthew would have encouraged the teacher to discuss his beliefs.  Probably more so because I'm sure he hates Muslims more than Christians.  You and probably slightly more supporters would look to drag the teacher through the justice system.

The country was doing just fine and was not tearing itself apart over religion before this type of situation became an issue in the fifties and sixties.  That is when the justice system decided to mutate the church-state seperation provided in constitution.

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You're not addressing the question. Would you still support the teacher if he was a Muslim telling Christian kids they belong in hell?

Matthew doesn't hate anyone. I know him better than you do. Have you ever heard of a psychological phenomenon called projection?

Our supporters are all over the world, and no doubt a vast majority of Americans. Just look at the blogs, including the conservative and the Christian ones.

Before the "fifties and sixties," minorities were expected to shut up and keep their place. While that may be outcome preferred by the radical right, it is not justice.

[Guest Guest]

When I first heard about this I took Mr. P's side. I thought Matthew was dead wrong. Then I listened to the tapes, heard from his father (Paul) and really tried to think about the situation with an open mind. I never had Mr. P when I was in high school, so I cant comment on his teachings. However, putting aside the fact that he spoke about religion in his class. He lied, thats all that needs to be said. He is a role model, he is not only supposed to teach the kids history but also he is an example of how adults are to act, and his actions are apalling. Its seems as if most of you expect Matthew to act like a 35yr(?) old teacher, and its ok for that teacher to act like a 16 year old. I think Matthew, and his parents are extremely brave. Whether you agree or not, Im sure that most people would not be brave enough to stand up against the masses and do what they think is right. I apolgize if this post is a jumble of thoughts. So Paul, God bless you, and keep up the good fight.

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I totally agree with this post. My utmost respect to Paul and Matthew. Both my children have been students of this teacher, and both agree with Matt about the religious teachings. They have since graduated KHS, but applaud Matt for standing up for his rights. I agree that religion and state need to be separated, and if Mr. P wanted to teach a reliegion, he should do so in a religious school. These students go to school in the public school system, not because they can't afford private school, but because our great government says our children has the right to a "FREE AND APPROPRIATE EDUCATION IN THE PUBLIC SYSTEM"...

Keep up the fight!!!!

[Guest Guest_Paul_*]

I find very interesting how much you know what goes on in the classroom if you are not even there. Specially when you mention over 15 years. Because you or Matt was not there for the past 15 years. Besides aren't you doing the same thing you are accusing Mr. Paszkiewicz of doing? You are forcing the whole town to accept your believes. If we do not accept you go on and on.

I got to tell you, to start with, you would not know preaching if it hit you in the face. Because you probably do not even go to church. If you know so much about preaching, did he pull out a Bible in the classroom? Did he make the students do repeatitive prayers? Did he make them sing O How I love JESUS? You are not satisfied with nothing that has been done, because the town did not follow the commands of the LaClairs. You insulted the intelligence of the people of this town, and for what I heard you insulted the BOE also. Who do you think you are? GOD???? 

Why don't you invest your time helping others? There are many people out there that could use your services. Instead you are here wasting your time.

This is your believes. You are free to have them. Why do people have to accept your believes? We are also free to have ours. 

Do you know how PATHETIC you sound begging people to come foward. Is that the memories that you want people to have of you?

Stop thinking of yourself and think about what you done to your son. The majority of the student can't stand to be near him. He can thank you for that.

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In the law this is called a fair inference. A 15-year teaching veteran does not do this much proselytizing out of the clear blue. A reasonable person listening to these recordings would conclude this not new behavior. Besides, witnesses have come forward with signed letters to the school board attesting that this has happened before.

[Guest Guest]

This guy should have been suspended for two months without pay.  That would have been an appropriate sanction setting an example.  Teach the subject or get out.

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Is that the law too? Are you like the LaClairs who tell people what is the right thing to do? I think you should call the principal and tell him that he has to suspend the teacher for two months without pay...hahahhah! That will be funny! I am just so glad that this is just your opinion and from reading what you wrote, you have no idea what you are talking about!

[KOTW]

In the law this is called a fair inference. A 15-year teaching veteran does not do this much proselytizing out of the clear blue. A reasonable person listening to these recordings would conclude this not new behavior. Besides, witnesses have come forward with signed letters to the school board attesting that this has happened before.

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Mr. LaClair:

It appears that you registered as a member with the name Paul. In order for your name to appear as a member, you must first log in. If you fail to log in, any post which uses a member's name will have Guest_ attached to it indicating a guest posted using a member's name.

I noticed that you have posted several messages since registering (I'm assuming you registered as Paul.)

A long explanation to say: Sign in and your posts won't have Guest_Paul on them.

KOTW

[Guest Guest]

When I first heard about this whole situation, I could not believe what I was reading. Someone FINALLY got Mr. Paszkiewicz between a rock and a hard place, eh? I had the man for U.S. History 12 in 2000, and I have to say that everything I have read/heard from the LaClairs and people supporting them is absolutely spot-on when compared to my own memories of Paszkiewicz's class, and the memories of a few members of my graduating class I've discussed this with. The man used to speak about religion so much that he was barely teaching us anything at all! I think I learned more about history from my grandmother as a child than I did from him. I absolutely can not believe how many people are coming out to support him, and they are all either lying through their teeth or just ignoring their memories of his preaching. I've read all of these letters in the Observer claiming that Paszkiewicz "never tried to sway anyone to his point of view," and I'm sorry for the vulgar language, but I call bullshit on that statement! I don't think he ever once taught us an entire chapter's worth of material, when he ran out of time for in-class discussion he would make us do outlines of the chapters as homework and assume that we would learn everything from the textbook just fine, most times having tests the very next day without any discussion of the more difficult issues we were learning about. I didn't do very well in his class because I've always had a hard time learning from text books; if I didn't need a teacher to help me see the issues clearly, I would have begged for homeschooling, as he wasn't the only teacher at KHS who couldn't teach a damn thing most of the time. In addition to the trouble in the classroom, Mr. Paszkiewicz once told me personally in the hallway between classes that I was going to go to hell, too. Why? Because at the time I was reading Mein Kampf, and I was on my way to a study period. He even went so far as to speak to my guidance counselor and attempt to get me sent to the school's favorite mental hospital for this offense. How in the hell do we live in a free country when we allow teachers to shove their religious beliefs down our throats? How in the hell do we live in a free country if a teenager can't read a book to try and gain a better understanding of a dark part of our past without being judged 'mentally disturbed' by the same teachers? When I spoke to my guidance counselor about my discomfort in his class due to his religious and personal comments to me, Mrs. C******* basically told me "tough shit". See, they won't let you change your classes or teachers around at KHS unless you have one of the guidance counselors who actually tries to do their job, you know? And Mrs. C******i never gave a damn one way or the other about any of the students under her care. There was NEVER a reason good enough to be switched out of a class in her opinion. Not even religious persecution, which I took extremely to offense, because not only am I not a Baptist, I'm not a Christian of any kind. Just because I don't believe what your church tries to force-feed me, I'm going to a place that may or may not exist, to burn and writhe in agony forever- and never mind that I try to live a good life, right? Mr. LaClair, I wish the best of luck to you and your family in resolving this issue. If more people stood up for our rights, maybe I never would have had to deal with the shame and misery that Paszkiewicz forced on me in my sophomore year of high school. I sure hope that the Board of Education doesn't make the mistake of letting Paszkiewicz keep his job. People don't deserve to be treated this way, ESPECIALLY not teenagers who are just learning who and what they are and want to do with their lives. They have enough difficulties without teachers weighing them down with this kind of garbage.

KOTW Note: The above post was edited for content.

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Let me guess you received an F as a grade!

[Guest Guest]

Mr. LaClair:

It appears that you registered as a member with the name Paul.  In order for your name to appear as a member, you must first log in.  If you fail to log in, any post which uses a member's name will have Guest_ attached to it indicating a guest posted using a member's name.

I noticed that you have posted several messages since registering (I'm assuming you registered as Paul.)

A long explanation to say: Sign in and your posts won't have Guest_Paul on them.

KOTW

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Anyone esle think Paul and his son have had enough of the spotlight? Thank GOD they live in America! One nation under God or is it Heaven, Paul? Don't believe in hell - then put this behind you and youe son so he is a little more accepted by his peers!!! For his sake! For GOD'S sake. But, mostly for our sake!!!!

[Guest Paul]

I find very interesting how much you know what goes on in the classroom if you are not even there. Specially when you mention over 15 years. Because you or Matt was not there for the past 15 years. Besides aren't you doing the same thing you are accusing Mr. Paszkiewicz of doing? You are forcing the whole town to accept your believes. If we do not accept you go on and on.

I got to tell you, to start with, you would not know preaching if it hit you in the face. Because you probably do not even go to church. If you know so much about preaching, did he pull out a Bible in the classroom? Did he make the students do repeatitive prayers? Did he make them sing O How I love JESUS? You are not satisfied with nothing that has been done, because the town did not follow the commands of the LaClairs. You insulted the intelligence of the people of this town, and for what I heard you insulted the BOE also. Who do you think you are? GOD???? 

Why don't you invest your time helping others? There are many people out there that could use your services. Instead you are here wasting your time.

This is your believes. You are free to have them. Why do people have to accept your believes? We are also free to have ours. 

Do you know how PATHETIC you sound begging people to come foward. Is that the memories that you want people to have of you?

Stop thinking of yourself and think about what you done to your son. The majority of the student can't stand to be near him. He can thank you for that.

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In other words, if I don't shut up, I'm forcing you. I don't have the power to force you, but your way of looking at it certainly says something.

When a 15-year teacher spends the entire week pushing his theology in a public school, it is obvious this isn't new behavior. In addition, former students have confirmed in writing that he has done this before. Finally, he admitted in the meeting with the principal that he has been doing the same thing the entire time he has been teaching. So the admission is his own.

You can listen to the recordings or read the transcripts; if it isn't obvious to you that he was preaching, there's nothing more I can tell you. I can give you the facts, but they won't mean anything if you've already made up your mind.

[Guest Paul]

Well Paul, that's were you run into trouble.  The question; was this teacher advocating a religion? Even using some of the "interpretations" of the Constitution you have an uphill battle.

Here is what the Constitution says about religion; Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Basically, the government can't establish an official or state religion and people are free to practice the religion of their choice.

It really says nothing about advocating religion, even if the teacher did this.

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Just because the radical right would like this to be the law does not make it the law. Courts, with judges both liberal and conservative, have consistently held that the Constitution applies to the states via the 14th Amendment. The radical right doesn't like it, but that is the law, and it is accepted by judges across the political spectrum. When a public school teacher advocates a religious position in a classroom, he is misusing his position. He speaks for the state, whether that is his intent or not. You may not agree, but that is the law.

[Guest Guest]

This post is a perfect example of the problem. Too many people do not understand how systems of law work. They look at the facts of particular cases instead of looking at the principle. That is one of many reasons our country has become so divided: the right abandoned what used to be a common commitment to legal principles under which our country flourished for more than 200 years. So when they don't like the result of a particular case, some people are willing to throw away the principle. This is especially characteristic of the right. That results in rule of men, not rule of law, exactly the opposite of what the Framers gave us and our Constitutional system demands. The writer here thinks he's making a good argument, I presume, but what he/she is really doing is illustrating exactly why this way of thinking undermines the democratic system.

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Mr. Laclair, this is still just your opinion. It shows an inability to look at a situation in other ways, keeping in mind that we all don't have to think like you to be right.

It also makes me question your reasons for doing this...it looks like there's more behind this than correcting a problem with a teacher at the local high school. It looks like what you're doing is gearing up in order to push your own political agenda.

[Guest a proud american]

Just because the radical right would like this to be the law does not make it the law. Courts, with judges both liberal and conservative, have consistently held that the Constitution applies to the states via the 14th Amendment. The radical right doesn't like it, but that is the law, and it is accepted by judges across the political spectrum. When a public school teacher advocates a religious position in a classroom, he is misusing his position. He speaks for the state, whether that is his intent or not. You may not agree, but that is the law.

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Thanks Paul for sending me the information I requested. And I understood their reasoning. Many years ago when I was a student at Kearny High, an incident occurred that, while not the same as what Matthew is going through was none the less important to me. While not going into a long winded recreation, we were advised that because of damage occuring in a shop class, we would have to pay a fee of $1.00 to the high school or we would not be allowed back into the shop. Since I hadn't caused the damage I refused to pay. I was threatened by the Head of the Department, who actually came to my house and spoke with my mother. He told her I wouldn't be able to graduate unless the money was paid. When my father came home and my mother explained to him what had happened, he didn't yell or scream. He sat me down and asked me what had happened and once I explained it to him, he advised my mother that not only was I not going to pay any money but if this guy showed up again to have my brother throw him out. After two weeks of sitting in a virtually empty class, the school finally relented and let me come back. As I believe in the case of your son, it was the principle that led him to do what he did. I am sure that the teacher in question is popular. But being popular and violating the law are two different things. And yes, to those who don't agree this teacher violated the law. So many people today are so quick to judge based on what they like or dislike. Instead of criticising what your son did, they should look past that and look at what the teacher was doing. And not saying the pledge of allegiance is the very essence of a democratic society whether one agrees or not. Since our rights are being taken away one Article at a time, I hope that people will take the time to actually read the Constitution and then look at how our Nation is today. They might then understand.

[Guest Patriot]

Thanks Paul for sending me the information I requested. And I understood their reasoning. Many years ago when I was a student at Kearny High, an incident occurred that, while not the same as what Matthew is going through was none the less important to me. While not going into a long winded recreation, we were advised that because of damage occuring in a shop class, we would have to pay a fee of $1.00 to the high school or we would not be allowed back into the shop. Since I hadn't caused the damage I refused to pay. I was threatened by the Head of the Department, who actually came to my house and spoke with my mother. He told her I wouldn't be able to graduate unless the money was paid. When my father came home and my mother explained to him what had happened, he  didn't yell or scream. He sat me down and asked me what had happened and once I explained it to him, he advised my mother that not only was I not going to pay any money but if this guy showed up again to have my brother throw him out. After two weeks of sitting in a virtually empty class, the school finally relented and let me come back. As I believe in the case of your son, it was the principle that led him to do what he did. I am sure that the teacher in question is popular. But being popular and violating the law are two different things. And yes, to those who don't agree this teacher violated the law. So many people today are so quick to judge based on what they like or dislike. Instead of criticising what your son did, they should look past that and look at what the teacher was doing. And not saying the pledge of allegiance is the very essence of a democratic society whether one agrees or not. Since our rights are being taken away one Article at a time, I hope that people will take the time to actually read the Constitution and then look at how our Nation is today. They might then understand.

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And while you're reading the constitution, you might notice that NO WHERE does the constitution say anything about talking about religous topics in class. This business of "separation of church and state" has been blown way out of proportion. The founding fathers were god fearing people, they never intended the word "god" to be taboo in our schools. The radical left wackos have caused this insanity. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, it says "In God We Trust" on our money, what further proof do we need.

[Guest Guest]

Thanks Paul for sending me the information I requested. And I understood their reasoning. Many years ago when I was a student at Kearny High, an incident occurred that, while not the same as what Matthew is going through was none the less important to me. While not going into a long winded recreation, we were advised that because of damage occuring in a shop class, we would have to pay a fee of $1.00 to the high school or we would not be allowed back into the shop. Since I hadn't caused the damage I refused to pay. I was threatened by the Head of the Department, who actually came to my house and spoke with my mother. He told her I wouldn't be able to graduate unless the money was paid. When my father came home and my mother explained to him what had happened, he  didn't yell or scream. He sat me down and asked me what had happened and once I explained it to him, he advised my mother that not only was I not going to pay any money but if this guy showed up again to have my brother throw him out. After two weeks of sitting in a virtually empty class, the school finally relented and let me come back. As I believe in the case of your son, it was the principle that led him to do what he did. I am sure that the teacher in question is popular. But being popular and violating the law are two different things. And yes, to those who don't agree this teacher violated the law. So many people today are so quick to judge based on what they like or dislike. Instead of criticising what your son did, they should look past that and look at what the teacher was doing. And not saying the pledge of allegiance is the very essence of a democratic society whether one agrees or not. Since our rights are being taken away one Article at a time, I hope that people will take the time to actually read the Constitution and then look at how our Nation is today. They might then understand.

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EDUCATION - lOOK UP THE DEFINITION IN THE DICTIONARY!!!! It involves teaching, more importantly LEARNING. It's clearly dependent upon airing and dicussing both sides of any issue, everyone is entitled to their opinion. As young adults learn the opposing viewpoints they can question, debate, discuss and even argue over ertain viewpoints. Isn't this a GREAT COUNTRY!!! Do you think any other country or press has the diametricaly opposite viewpoints disclosed or discussed in their schools or press as we do ???? Show me the passionate person about anything that doesn't cross the line occasionally - WE HAVE ALL LEARNED SOMETHING AND EVERYTHING SHOULD BE UNDER CONTROL from this point on.

Let's think about moving on AND DON'T FORGET TO THANK GOD THAT WE LIVE IN AMERICA, AND STAND AT ATTENTION EACH TIME WE PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! Anyone who thinks there are better countries to live in should consider buying a ticket and visiting them.

[Guest Guest]

When I was young and impressionable growing up and attending school (I'm sure you can tell Catholic school - St. Cecilia's) the concept of a heaven and a hell served a very valid useful purpose. I'm not sure of the exact context, as I wasn't there, were you?  I think more people should be aquainted with them, every religion has their own version of heaven and hell. Hopefully, this helps to make the world a more civilized place in which children grow up and are educated.

We constantly use them: what in hell?; everyone under heaven!; etc.

EDUCATION and especially CRITICAL THINKING are enhanced by different viewpoints! I understand there needs to be a seperation of Church and State.

Paul, if we didn't have different viewpoints why would we need lawyers?

Perhaps if more people grew up with a concept of heaven and hell; or even WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND it would be a better world!

THANK GOD WE LIVE IN AMERICA! EVERY DAY I THANK GOD MY ANCECTORS WERE PERSECUTED FOR THEIR RELIGION AND MOVED HERE!!

IT'S GREAT TO BE AN AMERICAN - I'm not so sure I still believe in a "Heaven" or a "Hell" yet, I do live my life realizing THAT WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND

In other words, I do have afear of GOD and it's not a bad thing! Get it???????

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Paul, I answered you question on Dec.,1st: no response? I am not surprised!