Answers on Kearny HS teacher controversy

[Guest Mike58]

I'm an out of towner from Philly who picked up on this story in the NYTimes online. As a former Catholic high school teacher, I know that students can sometimes tune in and out, carrying home incomplete or distorted versions of topics covered in class. In fact, I was once reported to the Vatican for teaching what the Archdiocese wanted: a full and thorough explanation of human sexuality.

The Vatican had the good sense to refer the matter back to the superintendent of the Archdiocese high schools and the matter was resolved.

Now it seems to me that the Kearny case is much different. Based on at least one other comment posted, students were aware that the teacher was preaching in class. And for those who object to that term, I'm only going by what was quoted in the NYTimes article. Since former students knew of this, obviously word was out that this teacher was preaching Christianity and some were not comfortable with it, despite his apparent talent as a history teacher. So, Matthew seems to have gone into the class with what was common knowledge about Mr. Paskiewicz' religious preaching.

I'm not really comfortable with the whole idea of secretly recording people. Irrespective of what the law or school rules might be, I'd rather see someone settle an issue like this in the principal's office. But if this teacher singled out a Muslim student to deliver an explicitly religious message to her, he not only offended her but misinformed her, since he has no idea who will or will not be wherever in the afterlife. The latter, of course, is not a matter of civil law but I mention it because it demonstrates why specific religious views should not be proselytized in a public school classroom. That kind of marginalizing behavior on the part of the student needed to be documented and, unfortunately, it sounds like the taping was the only way to do it.

I don't know if Matthew was looking for a fight or not. I recall a student in Colorado who similarly recorded his teacher, because the student believed the teacher was pushing an atheistic, secularist viewpoint in his biology class. While I don't believe any religious based explanation of creation or the physical world should be part of a biology class, nontheless if that teacher was pushing an atheistic, secularist agenda, he too needed to be called on that. I didn't like that the kid recorded the teacher and then appeared on major right wing radio talk shows, and based on the recordings I heard the teacher was not initiating any kind of secularist proselytizing but was trying to get some critical thinking started. And like Matthew, the student engaged the teacher while secretly recording him. Again, I heard nothing that the teacher said that wasn't pretty neutral and aimed at raising questions rather than promoting his values. I have no idea how that matter turned out but it may have some bearing on this case.

My bottom line is that there is NO place in a public school classroom for any kind of proselytizing and certainly singling out a student because of her religious beliefs is worthy of the teacher's suspension, if not his firing. That the Constitution doesn't use the words "separation of Church and State" doesn't mean that the separation doesn't exist. If we tried to find exact phrases for common practices that stem from Constitutional principles then we'd have to reconsider some of the protections we all take for granted.

I hope that the matter comes to a just resolution. It's unfortunate that the hateful comments posted seem to bolster the sterotype of the intolerant religious believer. At some point, religious people, and I am a Christian myself, really should consider the dangers to their religious beliefs if the state in any way permits one of its agents declaim the eternal destiny of a person of a different religion. Our religious faith can only be strengthened by practiciing it in ways that reflect the core of all religious belief: treat others as you would have them treat you. And think long and hard before you decide to record your teachers without their knowledge.

[Guest Guest]

A parent is the only one to decide what a child's religious education is, not a High School teacher. The teacher is Wrong and this boy is the only one with the guts to bring it to light. If the family had not have gone public, this "little" situation would have been swept under the rug by the ones that think the teacher, (which seems to be a lot of the town that thinks their way is the only way) is right. He is not! Our taxes pay for the teachers to teach what we the parents want them to teach,(Math, English, Science) not want the public servant wants to teach. We'll take them to church, IF THAT IS WHAT WE THE PARENTS WANT TO DO!!!!

[Guest Bathsheba Borl]

Did anyone who listened to the recordings of P have an alarm go off? I've heard lots of clones of Mr. P before, both in my community and nationally. (A few have been in the news lately.) Smug, narcissistic, condescending. Of course, anyone who thinks they have a direct line to God can't help but assume the role of God when they are forced to slum amongst us mere mortals.

That's why P doesn't think he's lying when, in fact, he's lying. Plenty of his supporters who showed up here further demonstrate his ilk's kneejerk pathology: they are victims, they have a special birthright, and they are so filled with love and peace toward humanity that they are compelled to level one veiled threat after another toward the LaClairs.

And they want no responsibility for their own actions because they are but vessels of God's will. How con-veeeen-nient!

Fighting terrorism means fighting religious bullies. All of them.

[Guest exholt (Ken)]

....I'm not really comfortable with the whole idea of secretly recording people.  Irrespective of what the law or school rules might be, I'd rather see someone settle an issue like this in the principal's office. 

....And think long and hard before you decide to record your teachers without their knowledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Mike58,

While I understand your misgivings, the way this and other cases like this have been handled by teachers, school administrators, and others in positions of power is precisely the reason why this recording is an unfortunate necessity. If one cannot expect those in positions of authority to own up to their own wrongdoings as demonstrated by this teacher's actions, students SHOULD record evidence of .classroom wrongdoings to hold him and other educational authority figures accountable to public scrutiny. Without such recordings, it would have devolved into a teacher said-student said situation that is often resolved with most believing the authority figure, not the student.

Moreover, the classroom is a public space where there should be no expectation of privacy for the teacher who is performing his/her job as an agent of a government that is supposed to represent ALL citizens of the locality. I have a friend who works as a state employee who is constantly monitored by his supervisors and the public he serves to ensure his accountability. Where I work, I have no illusions about having any privacy rights when I am at my workspace during the workday on my employer's time. Why should public school teachers as state employees be treated any differently when they are on the taxpayer's?

[Guest Guest]

What an embarrassing insight into a small minded town.  Good luck Paul and Matt.

The founding fathers were god fearing people, they never intended the word "god" to be taboo in our schools. The radical left wackos have caused this insanity. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, it says "In God We Trust" on our money, what further proof do we need.

Someone needs a real history class.  Treaty of Tripoli 1797, Article 11:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Interesting in today context.

Also suggested reading: The letters of Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams.  I doubt you'd find much to support the contention of founding this Great Nation on "Judao-Christian" values.  Certainly not in context with "In Got We Trust" on our currency.  What further proof does anyone need?  One might start with actual facts.

Another good lesson; when and why "In God We Trust" got added to our money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One word - Creator.

[Guest Guest]

http://atheistdelusion.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

[Guest Paul]

Mr. Clair,

I just saw the interview on CNN with your son.

If I have a word of advice as an activist against many forms of discrimination:

Press the teacher's defenders to put themselves in the shoes of the Muslim student whom the teacher said was going to hell because of her beliefs:

Ask them if they would find it acceptable if a Muslim teacher suddenly singled them out and told them they were going to hell because they believed Jesus was the son of Allah, and not just a prophet, and because they didn't believe that Mohammed was the final prophet of Allah.

Would they feel fine? Or would they feel under personal attack?

Would those claiming freedom of speech covers a teacher's religious opinions still say that? Or would their opinions change once the teacher is expressing a different belief than the one they hold?

I myself have used this rationale in cases where people back someone in authority who engaged in religious discrimination, or overstepping their bounds and expressing their religious beliefs, it works like a charm.

Also, I find that mentioning your belief in science takes away from your position, as it may make it appear (to some, not myself) that this is motivated more by your belief in sciences like evolution (which as we know is not universally accepted) than it is by the law and constitution - which are universally accepted. It may come off to some people that you are using this issue as a cover for some sort of secular campaign against (Christian) religious beliefs. I don't feel it hurts your case to simply not mention your beliefs.

Anyways, just some constructive criticism, best of luck to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate your comments, but evolution is a part of the science curriculum at Kearny High School. It is inappropriate for the history teacher to interject himself into science, in which he obviously has no training.

In addition, I wish people uniformly believed in the Constitution, but they don't.

[middle american lutheran]

I served on the board of a charter school made up primarily of famillies that had homed schooled their kids up to that point. We follow a "Core Knowledge" approach, one that most folks would consider very conservative, with very high standards, lots of homework, and a step by step or builing block approach to learning. By the sixth grade our kids have read more unabridged works of literature than most Americans will read over the course of there whole lives. My wife is always telling me that I'm a stick in the mud and am to conservative.

I offer this biographical information to place my following coments in context.

1. If the facts reported in the New York Times are true, the teacher should be immediately placed on leave and steps shold begin to remove him and the same steps should be taken for the principle. It is completely unacceptable for a teacher, with the authority ond power of the school district behind him or her, to make statements of his or her personal religious beliefs, regardless of the religious tradition that they spring from. People need to understand a basic fact: THIS IN NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.

[Guest Patriot]

The founding fathers were also slave owners. Does that mean you want to bring back slavery just because the founding fathers owned slaves? I'm sure you'd love that. Luckily (not for you, but for the minorities whose rights you're so ready to trample on) we do have a Consitution that stop you from either owning slave or preaching in a public school classroom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is your brain on drugs.

[Guest David in Kansas]

Paul,

I have read many of the posts. Some interesting arguments and some a bit less intellectual. I support you and your son. As you say, if it were a Muslim preaching in class the line of protesters would be a mile deep. If the teacher had engaged in a discussion of religious history in the U.S. this blog wouldn't exist. My favorite post was from Nicole. She gave us an eyewitness account to how poorly this teacher actually taught the subject he was assisgned.

The only issue I had was the recording. On the other hand, I teach college and sometimes students record my class as a way to take notes. I consider it a public forum and they have a right to record as such.

I'm sure some of you are betting that I'm preaching atheism in my classes. Nope. Not really pertinent to the subject matter. I teach, I don't preach (unless it's about getting their damn assignments in on time).

Good luck to you and Matt. I'm sure this is very hard on him. Too bad the school and the BOE didn't have the spine to take care of things the right way.

[Guest Patriot]

Indeed. And protecting the Constitution from the the attacks of the radical rights is a battle that no patriotic Americans should ever retreat from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Protecting the constitution ?? HUH ??

[Guest Julez]

Paul, BRAVO ZULU to you and your son for standing up to a bible-thumping bully who preys on minors during a HISTORY CLASS.

Yes folks, this poor excuse for an educator uses an American History class in a PUBLIC SCHOOL to preach to kids. While Americaqn History teaches us about the Puritians, Jews, Catholics, etc leaving their home countries to escape religious persecution, IT IS NOT AN EXCUSE to shove your misguided beliefs and twisted FALSE statements.

If Mr. P was a true American History teacher he would would teach in the appropriate manner that is laid out in the approved curriculum.

Religion classes are for religion and even then the instructor/professor/teacher's personal views are not appropriate.

Most of you B**ch and moan about how crappy Public schools are, yet when someone stands up to those educators that make these school abhorrent you brand them for trying to steal some limelight/press/attention. Please, get over yourselves. You're just angry that you didn't stand up to these fundies first.

[Guest a voice from Chicago]

Dear Paul,

It took a lot of guts for you and your son to do what you're doing. You've forced your school and many parents to deal with an issue that they were perfectly comfortable with. It is clear that they like their world exactly the way it is regardless of the impact on others. And they have unfortunately, but not unexpectantly, chosen many unsavory means to try to prevent change from occuring, such as the threats you've received and the multiple anonymous hate postings that I've seen on this bulletin board.

All I can say is, keep up the good fight. Good luck to you and your son.

[Guest Patriot]

I served on the board of a charter school made up primarily of famillies that had homed schooled their kids up to that point.  We follow a "Core Knowledge" approach, one that most folks would consider very conservative, with very high standards, lots of homework, and a step by step or builing block approach to learning.  By the sixth grade our kids have read more unabridged works of literature than most Americans will read over the course of there whole lives.  My wife is always telling me that I'm a stick in the mud and am to conservative.

I offer this biographical information to place my following coments in context.

1. If the facts reported in the New York Times are true, the teacher should be immediately placed on leave and steps shold begin to remove him and the same steps should be taken for the principle.  It is completely unacceptable for a teacher, with the authority ond power of the school district behind him or her, to make statements of his or her personal religious beliefs, regardless of the religious tradition that they spring from.  People need to understand a basic fact: THIS IN NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation. 97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

[Guest Steve_C]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's becoming LESS christian every day. Celebrating Christmas is different than being christian.

I celebrate Christmas and Thanksgiving and I'm an atheist. Japan celebrates christmas and its not at all christian.

Read up a little on Thomas Jefferson and the Establishment Clause.

A "wall of separation"

The phrase "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world" was first used by Baptist theologian Roger Williams, the founder of the colony of Rhode Island.[1] It was popularized by Thomas Jefferson as a description of the Establishment Clause in an 1802 letter [3] to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut). His intention was to assure this religious minority that their rights would be protected from federal interference. The paragraph containing the phrase is:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Jefferson's letter was in reply to a letter [4] that he had received from the Danbury Baptist Association dated 1801-10-07. In an 1808 letter to Virginia Baptists, Jefferson would use the same theme:

"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."

The most patriotic thing you can do is stand up for the "minorities" voice. The majority is rarely right most of the time.

[Guest Canadian]

If someone is teaching in a public class room that evolution is not fact, that is enough reason to do something about the teacher.

If you disagree with evolution, then you don't understand evolution.

School is not the place to be preachers.

[Guest Leigh]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

America is (predominantly) a nation of Christians. It is not a Christian nation. There is a difference.

When the president of the United States takes office, he puts his hand on a Bible - and swears to uphold the Constitution. Not the other way around.

Maybe I missed it - this is a long thread - but I'm still waiting for one of the "this teacher is great, this kid is stupid" people to tell us what you'd do if the teacher were Jewish or Muslim or Wiccan, and talked about his religion to the students.

[Guest Steve_C]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This country was founded on democracy and pluralism. Get some perspective. The founders purposefully did not claim any one religion as the national religion for a reason.

Study the establishment clause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of...e_United_States

Also we're becoming LESS religious and LESS christian as a nation demographically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_...ous_affiliation

Key findings:[7] (Not adjusted for increase in refusals to reply)

the proportion of the population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001;

although the number of adults who classify themselves in non-Christian religious groups has increased from about 5.8 million to about 7.7 million, the proportion of non-Christians has increased only by a very small amount - from 3.3% to about 3.7%;

the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just 8% of the total in 1990 to over 14% in 2001;

there has also been a substantial increase in the number of adults who refused to reply to the question about their religious preference, from about four million or 2% in 1990 to more than eleven million or over 5% in 2001.

[Guest Matt]

Paul,

I write this sincerely:

Why not take yourself, your wife and your son to the High school, sit down with the Supt., Prin., and teacher and work this matter out with the parties that this should be worked out with??

Stop all these public forums, because now it's starting to look like you're enjoying all this fanfare.

Go to the BOE, solve your problem and move on. Enough of the spotlights!

You are an attorney, act like one and not like a reporter for the Enquirer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While I can see the point this person is making, and agree somewhat, it's important to consider the long lasting damage people of Mr. P's ilk are doing to this country. This is not an isolated event. Teachers do this everywhere, and as our courts have demonstrated, it's against the law. There should be consequences. There is a place for religion, in the home and in places of worship. Not in pubically funded institutions.

"Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

[Guest Guest]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's interesting that you bring up Iran. Many in this country might believe in(though I'd doubt it would be 97%) "One nation under god." Examples of 'one nation under god' - Iran, Saudia Arabia, Northern Ireland. Go man.

You're right, culturally America is predominantly christian. But so what. Do you really believe in 'Mob Rules.' Why move toward a society of pitch fork waving sheep that do not think for themselves? What if Muslims (or any other group for that matter) become the dominate group in this country in the future, are you ready to follow the majority then?

Thank the Coka-Cola corporation for christmas. And thank Joseph McCarthy for "In god we trust."

Or,...didn't you read history?

Stupidity should be painful and expensive.

[Guest Calybos]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet, Christianity has no special status in our legal system, no unique privileges in our public education, and no exalted position in our courts.

Huh! Sounds like we're a nation full of Christians, not a "Christian nation."

Well done, Paul; I applaud your efforts to protect our freedom of religion by keeping government out of it.

[Guest Guest]

You must be living in Iran. This is the United States of America, a VERY christian nation.  97% of american citizens celebrate christmas, our currency reads "In God We Trust".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know lots of atheists and Jews that celebrate Christmas becuase they like presents and lights - not because they care one whit about Jesus.

And who cares about the money - it's not like everyone who uses money has to print that on their themselves. It was added to our currency as an afterthought around the time of the civil war. Just like "under God" was added to the pledge during the Red Scare.

[Guest Jordan Oezer]

Wow Kearny!!!

I can just see the hoardes of new residents on the road to such an enlightened town as yours!!

As a parent of elementary-school aged children, it breaks my heart to see so many in your community condemning a student for taking action against acts he considered illegal, immoral, false, etc. Don't we want our kids to stand up for what is right? If your child were to see someone bullying another child, perhaps your own child, wouldn't you want someone, anyone, to stand up and call the bully on his or her actions? I know that is one of the first principles I have taught my children. Do NOT stand by when others are doing the wrong thing. It is our DUTY as HUMAN BEINGS to stand up for those who are oppressed and mistreated.

For so many people in your community to condemn Matthew for standing up to his teacher for what has been said in the classroom seems very very damaging to me.

Although I don't know anyone in Kearny, I can only imagine how many "Support the Troops" ribbon stickers there are on your SUV's. Just remember, when our proud men and women in the Armed Forces are fighting, they are fighting for the Constitution. Funny how you forget that when it comes to actually supporting a young man who is doing the same thing.

[Guest JMC]

The idea that you believe that this was the right course of action for the common good is mind numbing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something tells me that your mind was already numb.

[Guest Guest_James_*]

If Mr. P was promoting atheism, Paul LaClair and the rest of us would not be dicussing this at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

uh, right.