What Has Happened To Our Country?

[Guest Guest]

Sitting quietly is not disrespectful.

Forcing people to say things or participate in rituals is disrespectful. Calling them names and questioning their motives, which you know nothing about, is even more disrespectful.

You could say that this is a difference of opinion, but the truth is, you're just wrong.

Not standing is ill mannered at best.

Does the president sit through such rituals when he visits another country?

[Guest Guest]

My own pledge of allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the principles on which it stands. I pledge allegiance to those great ideals from the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal and have unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I pledge allegiance to the freedom to think for ourselves, to speak our minds, and to decide for ourselves what we believe. I pledge allegiance to governance of, by, and for the people. I pledge allegiance to the military men and women who have sacrificed and served to protect this country and to keep it free. I pledge allegiance to the non-military people who exercise that freedom and who do all of the ordinary and extraordinary work that makes our country and our society worth protecting. I pledge allegiance to those who speak out in praise and admiration of our country when it does right, and to those who speak out in dissent when it does wrong.

I do not pledge allegiance to any symbol or ritual. Nor do I agree with any efforts to require or pressure school children or anyone else to do so. Self-proclaimed patriots who do not understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism will undoubtedly think less of me for this. But that is their failing, not mine. I accept their contempt, because to win their approval would require a moral failing on my part.

Created equal by whom or what?

The Constitution and Declaration are symbols. By pledging allegiance to the flag of a country you are pledging allegiance to the ideals of that country.

[Guest Guest]

I guess you missed the part about the effect the flag raising, a mere symbol, had on the morale of soldiers fighting on Iwo Jima. This is just one of numerous examples.

Not that they had anything to celebrate. They had just taken the island. Get real.

[Guest Guest]

So you of course know Matthew's motives for doing his thing but no one else does. You're a bone head.

I don't have to guess. Matthew wrote a letter telling us what his motives were. I take him at his word.

By contrast, you are guessing. That's not civil and it's not Christian.

[Guest Guest]

Not standing is ill mannered at best.

Does the president sit through such rituals when he visits another country?

Wrong. Not standing is an appropriate response against being forced.

The president visiting another country is a completely different matter. Diplomacy is at work there. He's not standing to proclaim his allegiance to the other country. You're trying to force people to display their patriotism in a prescribed way. We don't do that in a democracy.

[Guest Guest]

No, you misjudge my motives ad nauseam. I'm the one who knows them, not you. You have to have an explanation that justifies you, so you make stuff up.

So you admit that your post are ad nauseam. Finally there is something we agree on.

[Bern]

So you admit that your post are ad nauseam. Finally there is something we agree on.

Really insipid and lame.

Did you spend the whole night thinking up your little "witticism?"

Sad.

[Guest Guest]

So you admit that your post are ad nauseam. Finally there is something we agree on.

You can't read either.

[Guest Paul]

Created equal by whom or what?

The Constitution and Declaration are symbols. By pledging allegiance to the flag of a country you are pledging allegiance to the ideals of that country.

In the medieval Catholic church, scholastic philosophers used to debate over such matters as how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Meanwhile, some of them were lying, cheating, stealing and taking advantage of people. Their show of piety was empty.

In like fashion, you can pledge allegiance to anything you want. That doesn't help your country, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything in particular. Those rituals have meaning mainly for the participants. You don't decide what another person's recitation of the pledge means.

Meanwhile, you can drive a gas-guzzling SUV during a war for oil, put a yellow ribbon on the back and think you're being patriotic; pay no attention to the issues; don't read a respectable newspaper; vote based on small things like lipstick on pigs instead of on the issues; reflexively oppose every tax and every government program even if they're necessary; and rev yourself up to think that you're the real American and everyone to the left of center is not a real American. Stick "under God" into the pledge and have no problem at all with both Presidents Bush saying that an atheist isn't a good American. There's nothing patriotic about that. It's dangerously close to Hitler's Germany. Maybe you don't think so (the majority's prejudice is often invisible to the majority), but if you were an atheist, you probably would understand. I wouldn't mind if these attitudes and practices hadn't become so commonplace throughout the Reagan era, but they did. It was a bad era in our politics, and I sincerely hope it's over.

Unless you put your citizenship into good and useful action, it's meaningless.

[Guest Paul]

I guess you missed the part about the effect the flag raising, a mere symbol, had on the morale of soldiers fighting on Iwo Jima. This is just one of numerous examples.

This does not support your argument.

1. The flag was rasied on Iwo Jima after American soldiers took the island. Of course they were happy, but that's not what won the battle. The battle was won by sound military practices, just as every battle is won.

2. As American soldiers, they had a duty to put the American flag on newly won territory. That's not the same thing as being forced as an ordinary citizen to say the same words over and over, day after day after day.

You're completely missing the point. As I wrote several posts back (and someone completely distorted), I have no problem with the flag or the pledge in themselves. I would have been happy to raise the flag in Iwo Jima, too. It was a celebration of victory at a perfect time.

My beef is that too many people are confusing the symbol with the ideal, and are taking the ritual so seriously that they are turning its meaning completely upside down. That's when it becomes harmful. No matter how many times I write it, or others write it, you just refuse to acknowledge the point. Saying the pledge should be a celebration of freedom. By putting "under God" into it, you make it impossible for quite a few Americans to say it with any conviction. You're making us less free. By practically forcing people to say it, you diminish the very freedom you propose to celebrate. The ritual is OK, but not if it defeats or diminishes the very thing you want to celebrate.

It's really amazing how many bad arguments are made in defense of this ritual practice, and how every point in support of a thoughtful protest is completely ignored. This way of thinking represents the mindset characteristic of the Reagan era: practiced and willful ignorance. There was a time when most Americans valued thoughtful contemplation and would not have given someone like Rush Limbaugh the time of day. I hope we will return to that more thoughtful and more respectful way of doing things.

[Guest Patriot]

This does not support your argument.

1. The flag was rasied on Iwo Jima after American soldiers took the island. Of course they were happy, but that's not what won the battle. The battle was won by sound military practices, just as every battle is won.

2. As American soldiers, they had a duty to put the American flag on newly won territory. That's not the same thing as being forced as an ordinary citizen to say the same words over and over, day after day after day.

You're completely missing the point. As I wrote several posts back (and someone completely distorted), I have no problem with the flag or the pledge in themselves. I would have been happy to raise the flag in Iwo Jima, too. It was a celebration of victory at a perfect time.

My beef is that too many people are confusing the symbol with the ideal, and are taking the ritual so seriously that they are turning its meaning completely upside down. That's when it becomes harmful. No matter how many times I write it, or others write it, you just refuse to acknowledge the point. Saying the pledge should be a celebration of freedom. By putting "under God" into it, you make it impossible for quite a few Americans to say it with any conviction. You're making us less free. By practically forcing people to say it, you diminish the very freedom you propose to celebrate. The ritual is OK, but not if it defeats or diminishes the very thing you want to celebrate.

It's really amazing how many bad arguments are made in defense of this ritual practice, and how every point in support of a thoughtful protest is completely ignored. This way of thinking represents the mindset characteristic of the Reagan era: practiced and willful ignorance. There was a time when most Americans valued thoughtful contemplation and would not have given someone like Rush Limbaugh the time of day. I hope we will return to that more thoughtful and more respectful way of doing things.

So now Paul, the limp-wristed leftist, is now an expert on military tactics and the effect on morale of seeing the flag being raised on a battleground. Spare us your rediculous nonsense on what motivates soldiers. Your leftist atheistic views of the U.S. hardly qualify you to be in the same time-zone as a soldier.

[Guest Guest]

So now Paul, the limp-wristed leftist, is now an expert on military tactics and the effect on morale of seeing the flag being raised on a battleground. Spare us your rediculous nonsense on what motivates soldiers. Your leftist atheistic views of the U.S. hardly qualify you to be in the same time-zone as a soldier.

Your brainless ranting disqualifies you from being on the same planet with anyone who can think. D**ba**, the battle was over when the flag was raised, and anyway soldiers fight for more important things than show.

You wouldn't understand because you don't have the brains. You're like a dog who chases a car because it's moving. You have no idea why you're chasing it, or what you would do if you caught it.

[Guest Paul]

So now Paul, the limp-wristed leftist, is now an expert on military tactics and the effect on morale of seeing the flag being raised on a battleground. Spare us your rediculous nonsense on what motivates soldiers. Your leftist atheistic views of the U.S. hardly qualify you to be in the same time-zone as a soldier.

So prove your courage and honor by posting under your own name. For all we know, you could be a 15-year-old kid playing with his GI Joe set.

Did you serve in any battles? I knew a man who stormed Normandy Beach on June 6, 1944. He would tell us his war stories over and over. We never minded because he wasn't trying to make us feel like we still owed him something. He did his duty, then he came home and lived the rest of his life. I'm not impressed with your claim to speak for real war heroes, because I've known a few, and they didn't act like you.

[Guest Guest]

So prove your courage and honor by posting under your own name. For all we know, you could be a 15-year-old kid playing with his GI Joe set.

Did you serve in any battles? I knew a man who stormed Normandy Beach on June 5, 1944. He would tell us his war stories over and over. We never minded because he wasn't trying to make us feel like we still owed him something. He did his duty, then he came home and lived the rest of his life. I'm not impressed with your claim to speak for real war heroes, because I've known a few, and they didn't act like you.

I do not know about you, but I do not going around playing with 15 year old boys and girls? So what has your claim for this country's independance? What did you do during the war? I am guess WAC?

[Guest 2smart4u]

Your brainless ranting disqualifies you from being on the same planet with anyone who can think. D**ba**, the battle was over when the flag was raised, and anyway soldiers fight for more important things than show.

You wouldn't understand because you don't have the brains. You're like a dog who chases a car because it's moving. You have no idea why you're chasing it, or what you would do if you caught it.

It's so funny how a "Guest" will always come to Paul's defense whenever someone makes a comment to or about Paul. It seems Paul has a following of loony minions that reminds me somewhat of the followers of Jim Jones. (Advice to "Guests": Don't drink any Kool-Aid.)

[Guest Guest]

It's so funny how a "Guest" will always come to Paul's defense whenever someone makes a comment to or about Paul. It seems Paul has a following of loony minions that reminds me somewhat of the followers of Jim Jones. (Advice to "Guests": Don't drink any Kool-Aid.)

As always, you have nothing to say, so you attack. The subject is our country. Surely you don't think it's all about Paul. So why do you act like it is?

I know the answer. You're not smart at all.

[Guest Keith]

It's so funny how a "Guest" will always come to Paul's defense whenever someone makes a comment to or about Paul. It seems Paul has a following of loony minions that reminds me somewhat of the followers of Jim Jones. (Advice to "Guests": Don't drink any Kool-Aid.)

I think it's funny how you and Patriot constantly misspell the word "ridiculous" with an "e" Coincidence? I think not.

[Guest Paul]

This non-discussion is a perfect expression of what has happened to our country.

[Guest Guest]

I think it's funny how you and Patriot constantly misspell the word "ridiculous" with an "e" Coincidence? I think not.

Huh?

[Guest 2smart4u]

As always, you have nothing to say, so you attack. The subject is our country. Surely you don't think it's all about Paul. So why do you act like it is?

I know the answer. You're not smart at all.

I rest my case.

[Guest Guest]

I rest my case.

Good. Now go away and play in the street.

[Guest Guest]

So prove your courage and honor by posting under your own name. For all we know, you could be a 15-year-old kid playing with his GI Joe set.

Did you serve in any battles? I knew a man who stormed Normandy Beach on June 6, 1944. He would tell us his war stories over and over. We never minded because he wasn't trying to make us feel like we still owed him something. He did his duty, then he came home and lived the rest of his life. I'm not impressed with your claim to speak for real war heroes, because I've known a few, and they didn't act like you.

I'll bet all of the war heroes you know stand for the pledge and would find your little protest at the very least rude and disrespectful.

[Guest Paul]

Someone just posted that I should stop discussing the U. S. Constitution and the pledge of allegiance.

http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...ost&p=93251 I disagree.

If the Constitution isn't followed in cities and towns and villages all over this country, it practically ceases to exist. The Constitution isn't just for show. It is the supreme law of the land, and it must be followed if we want to live by the rule of law.

This isn't the only time we Americans have announced high principles and then not followed them. Slavery and the genocide against the Native American peoples come to mind. Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't want to hear it. Sorry, but those are facts. I don't want to revisit that history or conduct a national flogging. I just want to see our country live up to its ideals. There's no excuse not to. So cut the crap, follow the Constitution you claim to be standing for, then I'll stop complaining about your behavior. And I don't care if it sounds arrogant to you. This is my view, like it or don't. If you want to convince me otherwise, make an intelligent argument instead of spouting the same old platitudes.

Most of the U.S. Supreme Court cases that fleshed out important Constitutional principles involved local units of government. All the leading pledge of allegiance cases and many of the free speech cases involved local school districts. So when a local renegade teacher abuses his power to proselytize his religion, I will help anyone who calls him out on it, if given a chance. When someone tries to force me to stand for a government-sponsored ceremony, that is precisely when I will not stand. And when you keep proving to me that you don't get it, I'll just talk about it all the more. Like it or don't, that is what freedom means to me. Most people have grown so accustomed to the usual rituals and practices, they have forgotten their meaning. In my view, that is very dangerous and very ominous to the future of democracy in the United States. Agree or disagree, that is how I see it.

And with all due respect, "better in Kearny," it is not your call how another citizen spends his time or where he focuses his attention. These are important issues and I'm going to keep discussing them as long as you or others keep inviting that discussion. All your constant focus on me says is that you really don't want to hear another view besides your own.

[Guest Paul]

I'll bet all of the war heroes you know stand for the pledge and would find your little protest at the very least rude and disrespectful.

You would think that. You would also be wrong. Most of them, once they get to know me, understand my reasons and are proud to have defended the freedom that allows me to do it. They realize that I am honoring them in my own way by standing up for freedom against strong opposition. Two of them even commented that it reminded them of their own service. One put it best: "We both fight for our country, just in different ways." Several veterans have posted here and made the same point.

You think everyone who served in the military agrees with you on this point. You are demonstrably wrong. This isn't just a difference of opinion. You're wrong. They don't all think that. So the problem is the narrow way in which you are looking at it. Because when you say that "all of the war heroes" would think that way (I'll say it again), that's not true.

[Guest speedy]

Well, this is not the type of response I was looking for. I simply made a statement, and did not expect any name calling, but then again, this is KOTW. I am not asking anyone to confirm my beliefs or condem them. I just made a staement on my feelings. All of the men in my family served our country, as did my husband and now my son. Ask any vet or military person if they believe in the pledge and I am quite sure that they will tell you that they stand and say the pledge. But please, stop the name calling, if we can't have our own opinions without being called names, then why bother voicing one.