Citizenship in perspective

[Guest Guest]

Hey, stupid. You see where it says who the author of a topic is? If it says "Paul", and you don't want to read what he wrote, guess what? You could not click on the topic, you idiot.

Clicking on the topic is not the point, stupider! I just want him to go away!!! LOLOLOL

[Guest Guest]

Clicking on the topic is not the point, stupider! I just want him to go away!!! LOLOLOL

Free speech. Deal with it.

[Guest Guest]

Regardless of what the pledge says, Paul and Matthew will never stand and recite it.

Do you support the new GI Bill, or is standing and chanting more important to you than TRUE support of our veterans?

[Guest KHS02]

Oh look it's the KOTW's own little cheerleading B**ch. So tell me slick how does it feel to never have an original thought. Next time we want your opinion one of us will give it to you.

I'm ashamed to have graduated from the same high school as a child like you.

Not to mention incredibly stupid: "you never have an original thought" + "I'll tell you your opinion"? Good going, retard.

[Guest CC]

Not to be rude but Pledge of Allegiance discussion? Where is the discussion about how to improve our town? This is just a wasted thread. KHS uniform discussion became this?? This is as useless as the recall Santos discussion, lol I’m still waiting for the people to charge in to the town meeting demanding him to step down. Ask yourself why is KHS doing so poorly, how's the money being spent on KHS, and why does there website s**k so bad.

www.kearnylibrary.org <-- I remade this website from scratch, learning as I went along even. If you remember the shambles this website used to be, the difference will stand out even more. Did my best to keep the load low so that it'll load fast even on dial-up.

I'd be glad to work on the kearny schools website (that's the one you mean, right?) if someone would hire me to, lol. I hate that huge grid of buttons that all look exactly the same and seem to be arranged in random order. Don't you?

[Guest Guest]

Not to be rude but Pledge of Allegiance discussion? Where is the discussion about how to improve our town? This is just a wasted thread. KHS uniform discussion became this?? This is as useless as the recall Santos discussion, lol I’m still waiting for the people to charge in to the town meeting demanding him to step down. Ask yourself why is KHS doing so poorly, how's the money being spent on KHS, and why does there website s**k so bad.

It's not just a discussion on the Pledge of Allegiance. It's a discussion about citizenship. Judging from some of the responses, the discussion is sorely needed, and so is better citizenship. And yes, it is relevant to and important in Kearny.

As for your other topics, start a discussion, make suggestions, get involved. That would be citizenship.

[Guest Guest]

You're exactly right. It's very clear what kind of upraising Paul jr has had.

Yes, it is very clear. Obviously he was encouraged to think things through and not just accept whatever he is told at face value.

If Americans have lost that ethic, our time as the worlds greatest and most powerful nation won't last much longer.

[Guest Proud American]

Yes, it is very clear. Obviously he was encouraged to think things through and not just accept whatever he is told at face value.

If Americans have lost that ethic, our time as the worlds greatest and most powerful nation won't last much longer.

If he was sitting in front of me in class, he WOULD stand for the pledge.

[Guest Guest]

When one is running out of lame excuses trying to justify dispicable behavior, you try to switch topics. This should be obvious to everyone.

Isn't that exactly what Paul in his above screed did by trying to shift away from his son's inexcusable disrespect to our Flag and Country?

[Guest Paul]

If he was sitting in front of me in class, he WOULD stand for the pledge.

No, he wouldn't, and the more you push him, the more likely it is that he never will - anywhere. One of his teachers told him the same thing. The next day she publicly apologized to him in front of the entire class. You can hyperventilate all you want. He's doing what he thinks is right, whether you like it or not.

The flag is supposed to represent freedom, "liberty and justice for all," remember? As long as people treat its symbols as you're treating them, I predict he will continue to make his point.

[Guest Paul]

Isn't that exactly what Paul in his above screed did by trying to shift away from his son's inexcusable disrespect to our Flag and Country?

You keep saying exactly the same thing, but you never think it through. We can't have a free society where people are forced to salute a flag. Matthew has explained his reasons very clearly. Not once has anyone who was critical of him actually addressed any of them. (See http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...st&p=85992)

You are the one being disrespectful - of our country and its principles, and of us. Your attitude is the justification for his action. Keep pushing, and he'll keep pushing back. Push harder, and you will only increase his determination - the mark of a real patriot. And good for him. If you're going to proclaim liberty, the least you can do is know what it means.

Matthew grew up in an era when many people were afraid to speak out against the war in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic. And now we realize that the whole thing was a rip-roaring disaster propped up by a series of lies. Matthew's political memories were formed out of those unpatriotic acts by the Bush administration and their supporters. If you think I'm contemptuous of Mr. Bush and his administration, you are absolutely right. You're not required to agree with that political view, but I am allowed to hold it. And if we are to continue to be a free nation, we must be free to speak our minds. When people are afraid to speak out against a war, we already know we have a problem.

With something like a pledge or a flag salute, a free nation cannot tell people where to draw the line. Symbols are symbols. They mean different things to different people. What people hold as sacred today they may see as evil tomorrow - because symbols are not in fact sacred. They are idols. People must be free to react to them as they see fit. Don't you people understand your own religion?

I can scarcely believe how ridiculous this entire discussion is. It scares the daylights out of me, seeing the same babble repeated over and over again, as though no explanation had ever been offered. You can't force freedom on people. It's a contradiction in terms. A people will remain free because it understands and values freedom and knows what it takes to preserve it - no other reason and no other way. It's like one spouse saying to another: "Love me, damn you!" Doesn't work. Think for once.

[Guest 2smart4u]

You keep saying exactly the same thing, but you never think it through. We can't have a free society where people are forced to salute a flag. Matthew has explained his reasons very clearly. Not once has anyone who was critical of him actually addressed any of them. (See http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...st&p=85992)

You are the one being disrespectful - of our country and its principles, and of us. Your attitude is the justification for his action. Keep pushing, and he'll keep pushing back. Push harder, and you will only increase his determination - the mark of a real patriot. And good for him. If you're going to proclaim liberty, the least you can do is know what it means.

Matthew grew up in an era when many people were afraid to speak out against the war in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic. And now we realize that the whole thing was a rip-roaring disaster propped up by a series of lies. Matthew's political memories were formed out of those unpatriotic acts by the Bush administration and their supporters. If you think I'm contemptuous of Mr. Bush and his administration, you are absolutely right. You're not required to agree with that political view, but I am allowed to hold it. And if we are to continue to be a free nation, we must be free to speak our minds. When people are afraid to speak out against a war, we already know we have a problem.

With something like a pledge or a flag salute, a free nation cannot tell people where to draw the line. Symbols are symbols. They mean different things to different people. What people hold as sacred today they may see as evil tomorrow - because symbols are not in fact sacred. They are idols. People must be free to react to them as they see fit. Don't you people understand your own religion?

can scarcely believe how ridiculous this entire discussion is. It scares the daylights out of me, seeing the same babble repeated over and over again, as though no explanation had ever been offered. You can't force freedom on people. It's a contradiction in terms. A people will remain free because it understands and values freedom and knows what it takes to preserve it - no other reason and no other way. It's like one spouse saying to another: "Love me, damn you!" Doesn't work. Think for once.

Reading Paul's post it's easy to see why junior acts the way he does. Junior has been hearing this loony leftist propaganda for so long he doesn't

know what's acceptable behavior and what's not. Paul has no respect for America, our military, or the symbol of our freedom; our flag. He's

obviously indoctrinated his offspring to show the same lack of respect. Junior's only hope is to get out of Paul's house; go away to college and don't

come back. He'll see that daddy's leftist diatribes are not the norm and it may straighten him out. Only God knows.

[Guest Keith]

I hear you Paul. Where the flag is concerned as an American and a Patriot I naturally I feel strongly for what it stands for. What it truly stands for and I think alot of people have forgotten that. I would never burn a flag but if my neighbor did, well so be it because he is only destroying a phyisical symbol and not the ideas that it represents.Would I be offended? Sure I would, but free speech can be very offensive. Offensive speech while the hardest to want to protect, it's protection is crucial. I found it ironc that to enact a law against flag burning would cause more harm then any act of acutally buring a flag. Overreaction and hysteria seem to be the theme of our time. I stand for the pledge and and put a flag on the porch most every day and it's beacuse of that I fully support Matthew's positon even if I may not agree with it.

[Guest Paul]

Reading Paul's post it's easy to see why junior acts the way he does. Junior has been hearing this loony leftist propaganda for so long he doesn't

know what's acceptable behavior and what's not. Paul has no respect for America, our military, or the symbol of our freedom; our flag. He's

obviously indoctrinated his offspring to show the same lack of respect. Junior's only hope is to get out of Paul's house; go away to college and don't

come back. He'll see that daddy's leftist diatribes are not the norm and it may straighten him out. Only God knows.

So of course you babble yet again, not addressing a single point I made. Of course he has heard what I have to say, just like your kids hear the religions you've taught them. When you do it, it's OK. When I do it, it's not. Not to mention all the political myths you've taught them as your head bobbed every time Limbaugh said anything.

Matthew will be attending the New School in Manhattan, one of the most liberal universities in the USA. It was founded by Jewish intellectuals who were strongly influenced by Freud and Marx, and its president is a former Senator from Nebraska. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kerrey) The New School’s graduate program was founded in 1933 and called the University in Exile. It was “an emergency rescue program for threatened scholars in Europe.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_School)

If you read the section on the school's founding, you will see this, footnote numbers omitted, emphasis added: "The school was conceived and founded during a period of fevered nationalism, deep suspicion of foreigners, and increased censorship and suppression during and after the involvement of the United States in World War I.

"In October 1917, after Columbia University passed a resolution that imposed a loyalty oath to the United States Government upon the entire faculty and student body, the board of trustees fired Professor of Psychology and Head of the Department James McKeen Cattell for having sent a petition to three US congressmen, asking them not to support legislation for military conscription. Other firings included Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Dana (grandson of the poet) and Leon Fraser. Charles Beard, Professor of Political Science, resigned his professorship at Columbia in protest. James Harvey Robinson, an associate of Beard's at Columbia and Professor of History, commented on the resignation: 'It is not that any of us are pro-German or disloyal. It is simply that we fear that a condition of repression may arise in this country similar to that which we laughed at in Germany.' Robinson would resign in 1919 to join the faculty at the New School."

What you don't seem to understand is that when dissent is suppressed, the nation suppressing it suffers. Fortunately, other nations sometimes reap the benefit. Marlon Brando said this of his year as a student at the New School: "I attended The New School for Social Research for only a year, but what a year it was. The school and New York itself had become a sanctuary for hundreds of extraordinary European Jews who had fled Germany and other countries before and during World War II, and they were enriching the city's intellectual life with an intensity that has probably never been equaled anywhere during a comparable period of time."

So you see, The New School has a proud and honorable tradition defending intellectual freedom, and in particular the very point Matthew is championing in sitting out the Pledge. (Not that you will understand that.) Matthew will be one of the more conservative students there. So I wouldn't hold my breath about his taking a turn to your way of thinking if I were you - but that's up to you.

You're right about one thing. My diatribes are not the norm. He knows it, and so do I. That's all the more reason they are important. They are the right of every citizen. That is what you do not seem to understand, but more telling, you never address or even acknowledge the point. You never address a single point. How about that one.

Put it another way. Flag salutes have their place. But when they become so rote and so commonplace that people begin to demand them, they begin to interfere with freedom, both personal and intellectual. This is no apples and oranges comparison. It is a choice our country must make: Do we value the flag more, or the freedom it is supposed to stand for; rote recitation of a pledge, or independent and critical thought? I predict you won't address that either, or even think about it. You don't think; that's the problem. But whether you think about it or not, that is the choice our country faces, and the reason for Matthew's action.

[Guest 2smart4u]

I hear you Paul. Where the flag is concerned as an American and a Patriot I naturally I feel strongly for what it stands for. What it truly stands for and I think alot of people have forgotten that. I would never burn a flag but if my neighbor did, well so be it because he is only destroying a phyisical symbol and not the ideas that it represents.Would I be offended? Sure I would, but free speech can be very offensive. Offensive speech while the hardest to want to protect, it's protection is crucial. I found it ironc that to enact a law against flag burning would cause more harm then any act of acutally buring a flag. Overreaction and hysteria seem to be the theme of our time. I stand for the pledge and and put a flag on the porch most every day and it's beacuse of that I fully support Matthew's positon even if I may not agree with it.

I think Keith was "under the influence" when he typed this gem. Now he's a "Patriot". LOL

[Guest 2smart4u]

So of course you babble yet again, not addressing a single point I made. Of course he has heard what I have to say, just like your kids hear the religions you've taught them. When you do it, it's OK. When I do it, it's not. Not to mention all the political myths you've taught them as your head bobbed every time Limbaugh said anything.

Matthew will be attending the New School in Manhattan, one of the most liberal universities in the USA. It was founded by Jewish intellectuals who were strongly influenced by Freud and Marx, and its president is a former Senator from Nebraska. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kerrey) The New School’s graduate program was founded in 1933 and called the University in Exile. It was “an emergency rescue program for threatened scholars in Europe.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_School)

If you read the section on the school's founding, you will see this, footnote numbers omitted, emphasis added: "The school was conceived and founded during a period of fevered nationalism, deep suspicion of foreigners, and increased censorship and suppression during and after the involvement of the United States in World War I.

"In October 1917, after Columbia University passed a resolution that imposed a loyalty oath to the United States Government upon the entire faculty and student body, the board of trustees fired Professor of Psychology and Head of the Department James McKeen Cattell for having sent a petition to three US congressmen, asking them not to support legislation for military conscription. Other firings included Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Dana (grandson of the poet) and Leon Fraser. Charles Beard, Professor of Political Science, resigned his professorship at Columbia in protest. James Harvey Robinson, an associate of Beard's at Columbia and Professor of History, commented on the resignation: 'It is not that any of us are pro-German or disloyal. It is simply that we fear that a condition of repression may arise in this country similar to that which we laughed at in Germany.' Robinson would resign in 1919 to join the faculty at the New School."

What you don't seem to understand is that when dissent is suppressed, the nation suppressing it suffers. Fortunately, other nations sometimes reap the benefit. Marlon Brando said this of his year as a student at the New School: "I attended The New School for Social Research for only a year, but what a year it was. The school and New York itself had become a sanctuary for hundreds of extraordinary European Jews who had fled Germany and other countries before and during World War II, and they were enriching the city's intellectual life with an intensity that has probably never been equaled anywhere during a comparable period of time."

So you see, The New School has a proud and honorable tradition defending intellectual freedom, and in particular the very point Matthew is championing in sitting out the Pledge. (Not that you will understand that.) Matthew will be one of the more conservative students there. So I wouldn't hold my breath about his taking a turn to your way of thinking if I were you - but that's up to you.

You're right about one thing. My diatribes are not the norm. He knows it, and so do I. That's all the more reason they are important. They are the right of every citizen. That is what you do not seem to understand, but more telling, you never address or even acknowledge the point. You never address a single point. How about that one.

Put it another way. Flag salutes have their place. But when they become so rote and so commonplace that people begin to demand them, they begin to interfere with freedom, both personal and intellectual. This is no apples and oranges comparison. It is a choice our country must make: Do we value the flag more, or the freedom it is supposed to stand for; rote recitation of a pledge, or independent and critical thought? I predict you won't address that either, or even think about it. You don't think; that's the problem. But whether you think about it or not, that is the choice our country faces, and the reason for Matthew's action.

The New School in NY. I could have guessed as much, I'll bet you insisted he go there. I'm sure there's no American flags on display

anywhere in that school. There's probably a bust of Karl Marx though.

[Guest Guest]

The New School in NY. I could have guessed as much, I'll bet you insisted he go there. I'm sure there's no American flags on display

anywhere in that school. There's probably a bust of Karl Marx though.

Well, at least you're predictable. One stupid and meaningless remark after another.

[Guest Keith]

I think Keith was "under the influence" when he typed this gem. Now he's a "Patriot". LOL

You are gonna judge my patriotism? Yeah right..........

[Guest Guest]

You are gonna judge my patriotism? Yeah right..........

Loony leftist Kool-Aid drinking atheists are not patriots, you pathetic little worm.

[Guest a proud american]

You are gonna judge my patriotism? Yeah right..........

I noticed on page 2 that someone had used proud american in a response. For clarification purposes, this was not me.

To have Bryan claim that Paul doesn't know his facts is incredibly idiotic. As many of you are aware, there are two types of people who blog on this sight.

Those who get their information from blogs tend to use the ones that fit their agenda and then there are those who actually research the issues. Paul is an attorney and I'm not. Yet I was able to get the same information that proved Patriot wrong about the Mt. Soledad issue by simply researching using Thomas.gov and going to the Supreme Court website. How many out there even have a clue as to how John Mc Cain votes on Veterans issues. Most would believe that he stands behind every Veteran. Well, in truth, both Clinton and Obama have a better voting record when it comes to Veterans than most Republicans. If you don't believe me go to www.vawatchdog.org and see for yourself. It lists the voting record of every Senator and Congressman on veteran issues. Also it is a non partisan website.

With regards to the pledge of alliegence, I would recommend that each person stand in front of a mirror and recite it. And listen to the words very carefully.

Especially the last part "with liberty and justice for all" Now compare that with how our Country is today.

If a person chooses to stand and say the pledge he or she has that right. If they choose not to stand they have that right also. That is what is meant by a free society.

We get the kind of Government we vote for. Those who choose not to vote are giving up their right to complain when things aren't going so well. What is amazing is that some people have finally awaken from their seven year sleep and are complaining about the President. When asked who they voted for to a person they say Bush. Well as I explain to them you helped pot him into office so live with the consequences. And like you Keith, people have questioned my patriotism. A true patriot doesn't have to necessarily serve in the military. A true patriot questions his government and it's actions which is what the Founders intended. They don't sit quietly by while an inept Administration fights to take more of their freedoms away. Paul and Matt La Clair fight for what true patriots fight for. It's one thing to call yourself a Patriot. But the patriot who posts on this site doesn't know the meaning of what a patriot is.

[Guest Guest]

Loony leftist Kool-Aid drinking atheists are not patriots, you pathetic little worm.

pa·tri·ot Audio Help /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

Well, by this definition it would seem Keith is the patriot and you are the one trying to oppress individual rights. I would suggest you learn the definition of a value you presumably hold so dearly before you start accusing others of not being patriotic.

[Guest TheoryCat]

Loony leftist Kool-Aid drinking atheists are not patriots, you pathetic little worm.

Obviously the true patriots are the ones that hate huge numbers of their fellow Americans like you do.

[Guest Keith]

Loony leftist Kool-Aid drinking atheists are not patriots, you pathetic little worm.

and you don't even have the cojone's to use a name. Who's pathetic now?

[Guest Guest]

Come on already Paul, file the lawsuit. But you won't. It's not just the phrase "under God" that drives you and Matt nuts right? That's just your talking point for the moment. You really want everthing your way so start with the pledge and bring your case.

[Guest Guest]

Loony leftist Kool-Aid drinking atheists are not patriots, you pathetic little worm.

Now lets take it easy on Keith he's a smoker. He takes in alot of carbon monoxide and his brain is starved for oxygen. But it's ok for him to force his habit on non-smokers.