KHS Uniform Committee Meeting

[Guest TheoryCat]

America is 80+% Christian, we want "Under God" in our pledge. And we don't care what the loony atheists want or think. If you object that

much move to Iran. Is that clear enough for you?

Wait-you think you're a patriot with sentiments like that?

[Guest Guest]

America is 80+% Christian, we want "Under God" in our pledge. And we don't care what the loony atheists want or think. If you object that

much move to Iran. Is that clear enough for you?

What's clear is that you do not understand the Constitutional system as our founding fathers drew it up. The whole purpose for a Bill of Rights is to protect the minority against excesses by the majority.

So the question is, what issues should be subject to majority rule, and which should not? "Under God" is an expression of a religious belief. Religious belief is one of those issues that does not belong to the majority, but to each person individually. That's the way our Framers drew up our Constitutional system of liberty and justice for all, and it makes perfect sense. You may wish to force your religion on others, but you have no right to do it. If you don't like it, then you more to Iran, where they do things your way.

Is that clear enough for you?

[Guest Guest]

How about the original language:

"one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It worked just fine for 61 years, and we did just fine as a nation for 101 years before that with no Pledge of Allegiance at all. What's the problem? What's the big urgency? There is no need for this. If it's going to divide us, and it is, we'd be better off without it.

Divide us? So few people are concerned with this issue it will never divide us.

[Guest Guest]

Divide us? So few people are concerned with this issue it will never divide us.

Really? If so few people are concerned, why is there such tremendous backlash from the majority when one person decides to sit out the pledge?

That's proof positive it's already divisive. Open your eyes.

[Guest Guest]

America is 80+% Christian, we want "Under God" in our pledge. And we don't care what the loony atheists want or think.

Too bad. Might doesn't make right, and the Constitution enforces that.

If you object that

much move to Iran. Is that clear enough for you?

Iran is what the US will become if people like you are allowed to ignore the Constitution and impose your will on everyone else. Is that clear enough for you?

[Guest Guest]

Really? If so few people are concerned, why is there such tremendous backlash from the majority when one person decides to sit out the pledge?

That's proof positive it's already divisive. Open your eyes.

Exactly. It has divided us right here. All it takes is for one person to dissent.

[Guest Guest]

What's clear is that you do not understand the Constitutional system as our founding fathers drew it up. The whole purpose for a Bill of Rights is to protect the minority against excesses by the majority.

So the question is, what issues should be subject to majority rule, and which should not? "Under God" is an expression of a religious belief. Religious belief is one of those issues that does not belong to the majority, but to each person individually. That's the way our Framers drew up our Constitutional system of liberty and justice for all, and it makes perfect sense. You may wish to force your religion on others, but you have no right to do it. If you don't like it, then you more to Iran, where they do things your way.

Is that clear enough for you?

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place. You would not know a framer if one hit you. Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person. If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

[Guest Guest]

I’m not off at all. Millions of Americans do not believe in any traditional conception of God. Arguing that the words “under God” encompass my view would be inaccurate historically. Those words were inserted during the McCarthy witch-hunt era, one of the darkest periods in our history, to distinguish the United States from the Soviet Union, which was officially atheistic. We had many good reasons as a nation to oppose the Soviet Union. Its suppression of theistic religion was one of them. It’s non-affiliation with theistic religions was not. There is no doubt that the historical God of the pledge of allegiance is theistic.

I can endorse several conceptions of God. In essence, God is the divine, the highest ideal or best possible state of affairs. It’s a principle and a way of looking at things, not a being. There are other excellent conceptions of God, including Paul Tillich’s ground of being.

There are at least two ways of looking at the pledge of allegiance. One, I believe is consistent with a universal ethic and is therefore just, while the other is excessively nationalistic and not consistent with a universal ethic and is therefore unjust.

The first view of the pledge is as a stated commitment to the core principles of liberty and justice for all. There’s a real value in having children recite a commitment to “liberty and justice for all” every day, even though we haven’t fully lived up to that commitment. To that extent, I think the pledge is a good way of reminding children of what our country is (supposed to be) about. The hypocrisy is troubling, but on balance putting up with the hypocrisy may be a worthwhile price to pay for the reinforcement of these principles.

Unfortunately, the other way of looking at the pledge appears to be dominant right now and for quite some time. Most people see it as a statement of national unity and infallible righteousness. Two other elements that give me pause are the idea of pledging allegiance to a flag, which strikes me as ridiculous, and the divisive and unnecessary words “under God.” Every good citizen should be able to recite the national pledge in good conscience. Those two words alone cannot be uttered in good conscience by millions of Americans. Therefore, they should not be in there.

Nations go through periods in their history. Since Reagan became president, we have been in an anti-intellectual, even stupid period. We’ve been neglecting our most important forward-looking issues, such as energy independence, green technologies and fiscal planning for our future as the large baby-boom generation heads into retirement. We’ve been deluding ourselves with the idea that taxes will never be raised again, and that all we need do is snap our fingers to make terrorism go away. The fourth estate has all but turned into a national joke, as journalistic standards have been eroded in the interests of packaging news as entertainment. (This fact alone puts the lie to the idea that the media are liberally biased.)

These past three decades have been a time of excessive nationalism, in which the idea of patriotism has gotten wrapped around symbols instead of service. Contrast the ethic of our time, for example, with John F. Kennedy’s call to “ask what you can do for your country.”

In such times as ours, ritual ceremonies like the pledge of allegiance become more of an impediment than an aid to national purposes. Couple that with the growing unwillingness to tolerate the dissent of even one person from the ritual, and the accompanying ugliness, and you may begin to see some very dangerous trends. I thought Matthew expressed it very well in his letter from a few years ago (http://barnson.org/node/640):

“Our country has taken many dangerous turns lately. We have given away many of our freedoms through the so-called Patriot Act. Radical elements threaten to turn our democracy into a theocracy. Groups the majority does not understand, like homosexuals, intellectuals and liberals, are regularly treated with scorn, contempt and disrespect.”

“. . . when you declare my protest out of bounds, you feed the process by which societies have destroyed their own freedoms and created tyrannies. You may think we Americans are different, but we are not. There is nothing new about this. We are no different than any society that has ever gone through its own tragic undoing. American "unity" is looking more and more like the "unity" that has led to every tyranny the world has ever known. It is reactive, unthinking, and contemptuous of dissent. It shouts slogans and reviles those who decline to participate in its rituals. It employs pretty symbols like yellow ribbons to make people feel good about an ugly war. It demands unquestioning conformity.

“Whether a group is standing for the Pledge or raising an arm and shouting ‘Sieg Heil!,’ the process is exactly the same. You may not like that comparison. I do not like having to make it. You cannot reasonably acknowledge the evil of torturing people for dissent, and then on the other hand complain that dissent is out of bounds. A freedom is meaningless if no one ever uses it. If the current attitude continues to prevail, our freedoms will continue to be eroded, and we will become the very thing we have so long opposed.”

I think he is absolutely right. No nation has ever held onto its dominance for long. Most great powers have declined. We are exhibiting all the signs of such a decline, including denial. In such times, the historical inclination has been toward more shouting and less thinking, contempt for anything different, and a stubborn insistence on clinging to the past, as though the clock could be turned back by a sheer act of will. So in essence, my beef is that people are misusing the pledge almost as one would use a narcotic, with similar effects.

Finally, it should not be necessary for people in religious minorities to rally a majority to our side. The founding principles of this country should preserve religious liberty and equality for everyone, no matter what religions are most popular or unpopular at any given time.

You have asked a good question. Let's have a real discussion this time, where all sides try to understand the others, elevate the discussion and learn from each other.

The only thing I have to say to this Paul is "you are an idiot."

[Guest TheoryCat]

America is 80+% Christian, we want "Under God" in our pledge. And we don't care what the loony atheists want or think. If you object that

much move to Iran. Is that clear enough for you?

The hilarious thing is that this so-called 'Patriot' is saying "If you don't like our attempts at totalitarian theocracy, move to a totalitarian theocracy!"

Ummm-yeah.

[Guest Guest]

Too bad. Might doesn't make right, and the Constitution enforces that.

Iran is what the US will become if people like you are allowed to ignore the Constitution and impose your will on everyone else. Is that clear enough for you?

Might may not make right, but the majority rules. If you don't like the pledge get enough Happy Humans together to petition it's change.

[Guest Guest]

Really? If so few people are concerned, why is there such tremendous backlash from the majority when one person decides to sit out the pledge?

That's proof positive it's already divisive. Open your eyes.

You call 10 or 15 people on a message board a "tremendous backlash"? The population is 300 million +. What percentage do you think hold your opinion? It's you that need to open your eyes.

[Guest TheoryCat]

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place. You would not know a framer if one hit you. Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person. If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

The hilarious thing is you calling someone an idiot for making a typo with the typos and sloppy grammar in your post. How exactly is someone abusing their privilege (yes, that's how you spell it) to live in this country by insisting that the law be obeyed?

Answer this if you can-you think this country is great. So do I. Precisely why do you think so?

[Guest *Autonomous*]

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place. You would not know a framer if one hit you. Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person. If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

Speaking of idiots-

Religious beliefs are

so-called

Its is the possessive, "it is" is it's.

privilege

mandatory

Glass houses, etc.

[Guest Guest]

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place. You would not know a framer if one hit you. Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person. If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

Freedom of religion is not a privilege. It is a fundamental human right.

What you want is to force your religion on others. You want to insist that everyone pledge allegiance to your kind of religion. That is neither your privilege nor your right. Not everyone believes in a God, in fact some of the greatest minds in all history did not believe in "God."

That's why freedom of religion is in the Constitution, but "freedom" to force your religion on others is not. If you don't like it, then you leave. And if you don't understand that, then you shouldn't be criticizing someone for a typographical error.

You only want religious "freedom" for the majority. That's not even Christian.

Now you think you're so smart, then explain to us what abuse you're referring to and why you think it's an abuse. You won't be able to make an intelligent argument because it wasn't an intelligent remark. So go ahead, wise guy. Show us how smart you are. What abuse?

I expect an answer.

[Guest Guest]

You call 10 or 15 people on a message board a "tremendous backlash"?

Almost everyone in the community who knows about is has fussed over it. It's relative.

At least, it shows a big problem in Kearny. Is that better?

[Guest Guest]

Might may not make right, but the majority rules. If you don't like the pledge get enough Happy Humans together to petition it's change.

You're wrong. Dead, flat wrong. The majority does not rule in religious belief or practice. That's the system our framers divised for us, and it makes perfect sense.

So, since you seem to be having trouble with this concept, I'll make it clear for you.

The majority has to rule on public policy matters like taxes and war. The majority does not have to rule on people's religious beliefs and practices. Those matters are private.

What part of that don't you understand?

[Guest Guest]

Might may not make right, but the majority rules.

No, if the majority ruled, interracial marriage would still be illegal, and women still wouldn't be allowed to vote. We'd likely still have slavery as well, since those of African descent are a minority too.

You have a very flawed idea about how this country was established. It isn't a pure "whatever the majority wants, it gets" country, and never was.

[Guest Guest]

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place. You would not know a framer if one hit you. Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person. If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

One typo versus a whole array of simple mistakes, and you have the gall to call him/her an idiot? You are both a fool and a hypocrite, not to mention ignorant of how this country works.

[Guest Guest]

You call 10 or 15 people on a message board a "tremendous backlash"? The population is 300 million +. What percentage do you think hold your opinion? It's you that need to open your eyes.

You just made the point, and you don't have a clue that you did. Very few people agree with us, at least when they just react to the situation. That's the problem. When it comes to things like the flag or the pledge, people react, but they don't think. That's one of the reasons some of us have mixed feelings about the pledge, flag salutes, and things like that.

Some Americans have become so conditioned to all these symbols that many of them no longer know the difference between real patriotism and phony shows of patriotism. It's a real problem, all the bigger because people like you think we're the ones with our eyes closed.

[Guest Guest]

Exactly. It has divided us right here.

So let's get the divisive phrase out of the pledge so that it suits all Americans.

[Guest Guest]

Religious belief is one of those issues that does not belong to the majority, but to each person individually.

Exactly. You will never see an intelligent response from the knuckle-draggers on this point.

[Guest Guest]

Religious beliefs is why most of these so called "framers" and their families came to this country in the first place.

So why shouldn't everybody be free to practice their religion as they see fit and keep the government out of it?

Its idiots like you who like abuse its priviledge to live in this country and I agree with this person.

Living in this country is not a privilege. For citizens, it is a right.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're just spitting out words you've heard, some of which you can't even spell.

What priviliege?

What abuse?

Be specific.

If you don't like it leave. By the way it is move to Iran not more to Iran you idiot. They should also make passing 2nd grade manditory and that would get rid of certain people like you.

People have the right to disagree in a free society like ours. They don't have that right in places like Iran. Since you seem to like Iran's way of doing things better than ours, you move.

[Guest Guest]

Might may not make right, but the majority rules. If you don't like the pledge get enough Happy Humans together to petition it's change.

The majority does not always rule. The majority doesn't decide what religion I believe in, and no majority can rightfully force me to pledge my allegiance to a god I don't believe in. If you force me to do it, then this is no longer a free country.

By putting the words "under God" in our national pledge, you're beginning to drive a wedge that will divide the American people. I might understand if there was some reason why you had to do it, but there isn't. You want to do it. That's the only reason, and that's not good enough. The majority is supposed to understand that.

Force your religion on me or have a free country where everybody's religion is equally respected. You can't have both. Take your pick.

[Guest Guest]

You're wrong. Dead, flat wrong. The majority does not rule in religious belief or practice. That's the system our framers divised for us, and it makes perfect sense.

So, since you seem to be having trouble with this concept, I'll make it clear for you.

The majority has to rule on public policy matters like taxes and war. The majority does not have to rule on people's religious beliefs and practices. Those matters are private.

What part of that don't you understand?

The part where you can't get enough people together to change the pledge.

[Guest Guest]

The part where you can't get enough people together to change the pledge.

It's not hard to understand. In recent years our politics has become sharply divided and people have lost their respect for our institutions and the law. In addition, our culture of instant gratification, fueled by the transformation of news into constant entertainment, has given people the idea that everything is judged by what the majority of the people want right now. That has led people to say "who cares what the Constitution says, I want it this way." So people forget what large majorities used to understand about where the majority will ends and individual rights begin. That's exactly what we're seeing on this board over and over again. In fact, it's exactly what you just said.

This is not how the Constitutional system was devised, and if it doesn't stop, that system will not survive.