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QUOTE (Guest @ May 22 2008, 04:13 PM)

I you want to leave "under God" in, then you also have to learn to leave people like Matthew alone.

1. No you won't. You won't stop until everyone goes along with what you want. Well, apparently Matthew won't stop until you stop pushing, so you're both equally insistent. The difference is, he is right and you are wrong.

Why? Because insisting that you follow the law of our country is not disruption. Just because it upsets your little fantasy world doesn't change the facts.

2. What were you doing, looking around to see who was there? If you know exactly who was there and who wasn't, then apparently quite a few other families weren't there either. How many people were there? A couple hundred, five hundred maybe? Out of a town of 40,000, and you choose to go after one family because they forced you to look at something you do not wish to see. Every time you write, you prove Matthew's point.

I'd say get over it, but you won't. So that's your problem.

What I want is a quiet peaceful town. A town in which people live and work together and how do not use underhanded methods to get what there results. It's not a fantasy world if people are willing to work at it, but apparently you are not willing.

If my problem is that I love this town of Kearny along with its High School and the students, then I do not mind. It's not going to take one or two rotten LaClair eggs to ruin this chicken coup. I choose this one family because they preach how upstanding they are and never prove it. With all the problems in this world they attack only the ones for their own personal gain. That from any ""framer" is un-American.

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I will when the little snoop stops disrupting this town I live in. By the way I marched in the parade last night and didn't see one LaClair there. Wonderful town people that family is. If you like your freedom, thank a VET. Look at the thanks the LaClairs gave. None.

The so-called "little snoop" has the freedom to protest the pledge by sitting it out. Deal with it. Don't like personal freedom? Go live in a theocracy or a dictatorship.

How many people were at or in the parade? Let's assume it was 1,000, most likely a huge overestimation. By your reasoning, that means that 97.5% of Kearny (the other 39,000+) is ungrateful to veterans.

Idiot.

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Guest 2smart4u
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead

"thoughtful" ?? That leaves the LoonyLeft out.

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What I want is a quiet peaceful town. A town in which people live and work together and how do not use underhanded methods to get what there results.

So you're against teachers underhandedly using public school classrooms as their own personal pulpits, right?

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Out of 40,000 LaClair is the only one who won't at least stand for the pledge, let alone say it.

1. No, he isn't.

2. Being a minority in and of itself isn't a bad thing. Acting like it is just shows how unamerican you are.

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Guest Paul
And this has never happened in all of the years "under God" was part of the pledge?

No, it hasn't. You may find that hard to believe, but it is a fact. Michael Newdow challenged it a few years ago, and the Supreme Court dismissed his case on the grounds that he lacked standing because he was not the custodial parent of the children who were, in effect, forced to recite the Pledge.

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the issue. That's a fact.

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Guest Paul
Out of 40,000 LaClair is the only one who won't at least stand for the pledge, let alone say it. That should tell you something, but it won't.

It tells me that he has extraordinary courage. If you lived with him, as I have, you would know that.

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Guest Paul
What I want is a quiet peaceful town. A town in which people live and work together and how do not use underhanded methods to get what there results. It's not a fantasy world if people are willing to work at it, but apparently you are not willing.

If my problem is that I love this town of Kearny along with its High School and the students, then I do not mind. It's not going to take one or two rotten LaClair eggs to ruin this chicken coup. I choose this one family because they preach how upstanding they are and never prove it. With all the problems in this world they attack only the ones for their own personal gain. That from any ""framer" is un-American.

Then stop forcing your religion and your rituals on us. (The religion isn't even Matthew's main reason.) Stop forcing us to pledge allegiance to what we do not believe. Stop insisting that we pretend along with you that rituals can substitute for citizenship. That is your fantasy world. We will not support you in it.

Your vision will not make our country better or stronger. It will make our country weak and frankly, stupid. We cannot stop you if you insist on making our country stupid, but we will not enable you while you do it.

Stop demanding that of us. Then you will have a quiet and peaceful town. If you force us to do what we do not believe, we will dissent. This is our vision of what being a good American means. You can say many things about us, but we are fighting for our country, whether you realize it or not, appreciate it or not.

And it's not underhanded. You just don't like it. We are completely out in the open, which is why you know who we are - unlike you, who chooses to remain anonymous. So in addition to everything else, you are a coward. And if you ever have the courage to tell me who you are, I will say it to your face. I'm in the book.

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Then stop forcing your religion and your rituals on us. (The religion isn't even Matthew's main reason.) Stop forcing us to pledge allegiance to what we do not believe. Stop insisting that we pretend along with you that rituals can substitute for citizenship. That is your fantasy world. We will not support you in it.

Your vision will not make our country better or stronger. It will make our country weak and frankly, stupid. We cannot stop you if you insist on making our country stupid, but we will not enable you while you do it.

Stop demanding that of us. Then you will have a quiet and peaceful town. If you force us to do what we do not believe, we will dissent. This is our vision of what being a good American means. You can say many things about us, but we are fighting for our country, whether you realize it or not, appreciate it or not.

And it's not underhanded. You just don't like it. We are completely out in the open, which is why you know who we are - unlike you, who chooses to remain anonymous. So in addition to everything else, you are a coward. And if you ever have the courage to tell me who you are, I will say it to your face. I'm in the book.

Well Paul maybe you and your kid should live on a commune. Maybe your kid who does'nt want to Pledge the flag, could at least show some respect by standing and showing some respect for the Men and Women who gave their lives so that have the freedoms that you enjoy so much, like the freedom of speech, freedom to practice whatever religion you choose. Your kid does'nt have to recite the Pledge. However by showing his disrespect by sitting through out the pledge shows to me he is nothing more than a punk.

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Guest Guest
Well Paul maybe you and your kid should live on a commune. Maybe your kid who does'nt want to Pledge the flag, could at least show some respect by standing and showing some respect for the Men and Women who gave their lives so that have the freedoms that you enjoy so much, like the freedom of speech, freedom to practice whatever religion you choose.

Let me get this straight--the LaClairs should respect the sacrifice for the freedoms...by not exercising their freedoms? Something doesn't add up here.

How about you show some respect for all of the non-Christians who ALSO gave their lives for those freedoms by helping to remove that unnecessary phrase from the pledge that excludes non-Christians and paints them as second-class citizens?

Think about it.

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Guest Paul
Well Paul maybe you and your kid should live on a commune. Maybe your kid who does'nt want to Pledge the flag, could at least show some respect by standing and showing some respect for the Men and Women who gave their lives so that have the freedoms that you enjoy so much, like the freedom of speech, freedom to practice whatever religion you choose. Your kid does'nt have to recite the Pledge. However by showing his disrespect by sitting through out the pledge shows to me he is nothing more than a punk.

No, we choose to live here. We do not choose to live on a commune. (This fall he'll be living on a campus in Manhattan.) Our values are the ones consistent with the Constitution. You are the one who cannot tolerate dissent. If you don't like dissent, maybe you should move to a country where it is not allowed, like Iran or North Korea.

Now, why isn't that argument better than yours? Don't just huff off in the usual fit of outrage I've seen from everyone who doesn't agree with us. Engage the argument. Your view is not consistent with our country's founding values. If the framers - Franklin, Madison, many others and especially Jefferson, who is widely regarded as the most brilliant of the founding fathers - were alive today, they would side with us. There has been an evolution in the meaning of "patriotism" away from the ideals on which this country was founded. "Patriotism" has come to mean outward displays, not the core hard work of citizenship. That is not what the founding fathers intended - in fact they would be horrified by your attitude - and it will not sustain a nation in the long run. On the contrary, as I've written before, it makes the nation weaker.

You've grown up in this milieu, so you don't see it. That's part of the point Matthew is making. Our country is in trouble because of attitudes like yours. This is classic for a nation that has grown accustomed to being on top of the world and is in its decadent stage. Its people congratulate themselves on how wonderful they are - the vox populi equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns. Historians, economists, sociologists, political leaders and many others all over the world are warning us that the United States is heading into a period of national decline, in fact that we are in one. Why aren't we listening?

We can prevent our own national decline, but we're going to have to focus on things that are real, not superficial things. If we focus on superficial things, we're just comforting ourselves into a false sense of security, which is the worst thing a nation at our stage in history can do right now.

That's why this matters. You're smart enough to think about it, so why not do that? It's a very important point, which we make because we love this country and the people in it, and are willing to fight for it. That's what he is doing, and I support him. So let's have this discussion, and let's do it by actually talking to each other. You address that point, and I will address your points. Then we can have an intelligent and maybe a productive discussion.

It is said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. You see disrespect because that is what you choose to see. Look at it another way, and you'll see the profound respect that his action represents: what the ACLU sees, and People for the American Way and Americans United and all the other organizations who consider him a hero. There's a reason why they see him that way, and it has to do with their understanding of what really makes a country strong. As the biblical passages referenced a few posts back point out, there is a profound difference between outward displays and true loyalty to high principles. The least you can do is try to understand what he is saying. By refusing to do that, you show me that you are nothing more than a person who refuses to think and respect the views of others.

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Guest 2smart4u
No, it hasn't. You may find that hard to believe, but it is a fact. Michael Newdow challenged it a few years ago, and the Supreme Court dismissed his case on the grounds that he lacked standing because he was not the custodial parent of the children who were, in effect, forced to recite the Pledge.

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the issue. That's a fact.

Michael Newdow was an avowed atheist who died a few years ago. I wonder if before he died, he prayed for forgiveness ??

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Guest Patriot
I support your comments 100%. I served in WW2 and saw many friends die in combat against the Nazis. An American flag was a cherished

symbol in that war that was protected and guarded. When I read where some people won't stand for the pledge of alleigence because they're

not free if they do, it saddens me. It still makes me proud to stand for the Star Spangled Banner and it always reminds me the friends I lost.

On this Memorial Day weekend I thank you for your service and for your love of country. Sadly we still have people like Paul

and junior who think standing for the pledge is a meaningless ritual that infringes on their "freedom". Somehow they forget the many brave men

who died defending the flag to give Paul and junior their "freedom". Paul has said he doesn't believe in what our flag represents and he's

obviously brainwashed junior with these leftist views. Today I stand with you, "Senior Kearny Resident" and I detest those who don't

respect the sacrifices of you and your comrades.

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Let me get this straight--the LaClairs should respect the sacrifice for the freedoms...by not exercising their freedoms? Something doesn't add up here.

How about you show some respect for all of the non-Christians who ALSO gave their lives for those freedoms by helping to remove that unnecessary phrase from the pledge that excludes non-Christians and paints them as second-class citizens?

Think about it.

I agree with you, the word under god should never have been placed in the pledge. The pledge was originally written by a Socialist as a poem for a socialist magazine. Sometime in the 1950's the Christian church petitioned congress to add the words " Under God" to the pledge. However I still stand by my earlier comments. If you don't want to say the words " Under God" then don't say them. Still though stand up and recite the pledge just leave out the words that offend you, now thats fair.There were those I went to school with that were Athiests and they stood for the pledge and left out the words under god but at least they stood and showed respect. By sitting thru the pledge this kid is not only being disrespectful but is showing his contempt for those who sacrificed their lives so that you and I can have this discussion.

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On this Memorial Day weekend I thank you for your service and for your love of country. Sadly we still have people like Paul

and junior who think standing for the pledge is a meaningless ritual that infringes on their "freedom".

Being PRESSURED to stand for the pledge infringes on freedom. When you're PRESSURING people to do it, you take away all of the meaning behind it.

And doing something that actually helps, like supporting the new GI Bill, is a billion times more respectful than standing and chanting a few memorized words. That's what TRUE veteran support is.

Somehow they forget the many brave men

who died defending the flag to give Paul and junior their "freedom". Paul has said he doesn't believe in what our flag represents

What a dirty liar you are.

I detest those who don't respect the sacrifices of you and your comrades.

So you denounce President Bush and John McCain for opposing the new GI Bill, right?

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Michael Newdow was an avowed atheist who died a few years ago. I wonder if before he died, he prayed for forgiveness ??

Prayed to who? Hello? Atheist? Do you know what that means?

Idiot.

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Michael Newdow was an avowed atheist who died a few years ago. I wonder if before he died, he prayed for forgiveness ??

What a stupid remark, not to mention the fact that Michael Newdow is very much alive.

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On this Memorial Day weekend I thank you for your service and for your love of country. Sadly we still have people like Paul

and junior who think standing for the pledge is a meaningless ritual that infringes on their "freedom". Somehow they forget the many brave men

who died defending the flag to give Paul and junior their "freedom". Paul has said he doesn't believe in what our flag represents and he's

obviously brainwashed junior with these leftist views. Today I stand with you, "Senior Kearny Resident" and I detest those who don't

respect the sacrifices of you and your comrades.

That's not what he said. He said you've turned the flag salute into a meaningless ritual by forcing it on people and making too much of it. He understands what it means better than you do - which isn't hard.

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Guest Patriot
No, we choose to live here. We do not choose to live on a commune. (This fall he'll be living on a campus in Manhattan.) Our values are the ones consistent with the Constitution. You are the one who cannot tolerate dissent. If you don't like dissent, maybe you should move to a country where it is not allowed, like Iran or North Korea.

Now, why isn't that argument better than yours? Don't just huff off in the usual fit of outrage I've seen from everyone who doesn't agree with us. Engage the argument. Your view is not consistent with our country's founding values. If the framers - Franklin, Madison, many others and especially Jefferson, who is widely regarded as the most brilliant of the founding fathers - were alive today, they would side with us. There has been an evolution in the meaning of "patriotism" away from the ideals on which this country was founded. "Patriotism" has come to mean outward displays, not the core hard work of citizenship. That is not what the founding fathers intended - in fact they would be horrified by your attitude - and it will not sustain a nation in the long run. On the contrary, as I've written before, it makes the nation weaker.

You've grown up in this milieu, so you don't see it. That's part of the point Matthew is making. Our country is in trouble because of attitudes like yours. This is classic for a nation that has grown accustomed to being on top of the world and is in its decadent stage. Its people congratulate themselves on how wonderful they are - the vox populi equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns. Historians, economists, sociologists, political leaders and many others all over the world are warning us that the United States is heading into a period of national decline, in fact that we are in one. Why aren't we listening?

We can prevent our own national decline, but we're going to have to focus on things that are real, not superficial things. If we focus on superficial things, we're just comforting ourselves into a false sense of security, which is the worst thing a nation at our stage in history can do right now.

That's why this matters. You're smart enough to think about it, so why not do that? It's a very important point, which we make because we love this country and the people in it, and are willing to fight for it. That's what he is doing, and I support him. So let's have this discussion, and let's do it by actually talking to each other. You address that point, and I will address your points. Then we can have an intelligent and maybe a productive discussion.

It is said that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. You see disrespect because that is what you choose to see. Look at it another way, and you'll see the profound respect that his action represents: what the ACLU sees, and People for the American Way and Americans United and all the other organizations who consider him a hero. There's a reason why they see him that way, and it has to do with their understanding of what really makes a country strong. As the biblical passages referenced a few posts back point out, there is a profound difference between outward displays and true loyalty to high principles. The least you can do is try to understand what he is saying. By refusing to do that, you show me that you are nothing more than a person who refuses to think and respect the views of others.

"Our country is in trouble", "in it's decadent stage", "period of national decline". Paul's love of country is obvious, is it any wonder they won't

stand for the pledge.

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Guest Guest
Let me get this straight--the LaClairs should respect the sacrifice for the freedoms...by not exercising their freedoms? Something doesn't add up here.

How about you show some respect for all of the non-Christians who ALSO gave their lives for those freedoms by helping to remove that unnecessary phrase from the pledge that excludes non-Christians and paints them as second-class citizens?

Think about it.

You're confused, I'll explain it to you. We are a Christian nation, therefore our pledge contains the words "under God". That should be easy to

understand even for an atheist. The words "under God" will never be removed from the pledge. If you find those words objectionable, that's your

problem, deal with it. And FYI, I do consider non-Christians second class citizens. Correction: Ignorant second class citizens.

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Michael Newdow was an avowed atheist who died a few years ago.

Newdow is very much alive, no thanks to the numerous Christians who displayed the sincerity of their commitment to the kindness and love of Jesus Christ by threatening to murder him.

I wonder if before he died, he prayed for forgiveness ??

Will you? For all the lies that you have spread and the bigotry that you have exhibited and promoted? And will it be sincere, or just a pretense to avoid the consequences of action's you would gladly do again if you thought you could get away with it? Do you really think that you would be in any better standing at the pearly gates than Newdow?

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