Guest Piggy Bank Boy Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Mr. mangin, council and mayor, ing Has the fire fighters monies for raises been put aside or is it part of the 4 mil surplus???? Why wouldnt you be interested in savings??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I would not think that the raise would be much of an issue. I would assume that the fire department would be giving the same raise as all the other town workers, including the town administrator. I heard the offer is considerably less than the other dept.'s. I think the other dept.'s got 4.2 over the life of the contract. I also heard the firemen offered to take a 3.7 to help the town out of it's financial difficulties & the town came back with that 2.7. guess they think the firemen will take a low ball raise so they can have the 24 hr. shift. So the expensive litagation goes on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Mr. mangin, council and mayor,ing Has the fire fighters monies for raises been put aside or is it part of the 4 mil surplus???? Why wouldnt you be interested in savings??? They think the 24 hr. shifts would encourage the remaining firemen homeowers in town to move. They also don't want the out of towner to have this shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe H. Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I was hoping that DidThe Math would answer my questions, he seemed to have some knowledge of staffing, scheduling,budgeting etc.. I have more questions concerning the 24 hour shift which I think (but I could be wrong) is the main negotiable item (as is money, but I think the two are linked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I was hoping that DidThe Math would answer my questions, he seemed tohave some knowledge of staffing, scheduling,budgeting etc.. I have more questions concerning the 24 hour shift which I think (but I could be wrong) is the main negotiable item (as is money, but I think the two are linked). Of course they are, didn't you read the last two guest quotes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe H. Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Guest, Yes, I did read them....still waiting for an answer from DidTheMath who implied that this was a simple issue. I disagree. I will admit that I don't know all the ins-and outs of the FMBA contract but the change to 24 hr shifts would neccesitate a change/negotiation on some other issues I would think. Vacation time and overtime spring to mind. Would those parts of the contract need to be changed and if so, how? I have lots of questions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Did The Math Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Joe H if you read the posts they simply state that more fire fighters would need to be hired to work 8 hour shifts in others words no the kearny fire dept does not have the numbers to work 8 hour days and as far as all your other questions about the 24 hour shifts is simple. I hope you like algebra. Fireman "A" works x amount of hours a year on a 10-14 hour schedule Fireman "B" works x amount of hours a year on a 24 hour schedule. Fireman "A" also gets y amount of vacation hours and guess what Fireman "B" also gets y amount vacation!!! So x=x and y=y I see it as simple but to others................Read the previous posts it is the same amount of hours worked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Did The Math Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 "I will admit that I don't know all the ins-and outs of the FMBA contract but the change to 24 hr shifts would neccesitate a change/negotiation on some other issues I would think." You think wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest InTheKnow Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Regardless of what any of us know or think about the 24 hr. shift, almost every other department in Hudson County have implemented them. The reason they were implemented was to save the towns money. It is a proven fact that the town will benefit the most from this shift change. There is no proof that anyone will move out of town because of this change. And besides you don’t have to live in town to get hired on the Police of Fire departments. You can even live out of town and be the Town Administrator or the Personnel Specialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Guest,Yes, I did read them....still waiting for an answer from DidTheMath who implied that this was a simple issue. I disagree. I will admit that I don't know all the ins-and outs of the FMBA contract but the change to 24 hr shifts would neccesitate a change/negotiation on some other issues I would think. Vacation time and overtime spring to mind. Would those parts of the contract need to be changed and if so, how? I have lots of questions.... The town is well aware of what the 24 hr. shifts will to other items in the contract. One example would be vacation days would be cut in half. There are no items that are so questionable that the town should thake 3 years +++ to settle this contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe H. Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Just for the record, is the proposal 24 hours on followed by 3 (is that possible ?) days off ? If you take one vacation day(24 hours) you get four days off? How many vacation days or hours do they get? Simple math, no, algebra : fireman "a" takes sick day under current schedule = 10/14 hours sick time. Under new schedule = 24 hours sick time. If we choose to replace rather then run short, we pay fireman "a" 24 hours overtime rather than 10/14 hours overtime. What if fireman "a" works OT shift, followed by regular shift. Now working 48 consecutive hours? What about fatigue factor? Let's talk about fatigue. Squad "A" responds to physically and emotionally challenging event early in shift..will this lead to fatigue and lack of alertness if needed to respon to another event later, towards the end of 24 hour shift schedule? What about covering a shift for a co-worker; again, working 48 consecutive hours? If the 24 hour shifts require less shifts, what about the number of supervisors needed to cover the current shifts? Will we need less supervisors ? By the way, never did answer what the ratio of supervisors to firefighters is... as far as living out of town, let's be honest.. this is an ENORMOUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest InTheKnow Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Regardless what we think, most major departments in the United States, especially in the North East are already operating with this shift. It is the preferred shift for the fire service. I would suggest that if you have any questions on this subject, call the Chief of Jersey City Fire Department or North Hudson. I would venture to guess that they are much bigger departments with many more fires per year then Kearny. One would wonder why they are operating with them. There must be a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe H. Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 sorry..hit wrong button.. this would be an enormous benefit to firemen living out of town, less commuting, but that's Ok..the residency issue is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Look, if this is such a no-brainer, why the hold-up with negotiating the contract. I gotta think the Town would like to save the money. I'm just thinking maybe there are other issues involved. Tell me if I'm wrong... By the way, if you guys are right, and the Town saves money, and the KFD gets more staffing for less dollars spent, then of course let's do it. Then the next thing would be to re-negotiate the KPD schedules and realize savings there there too ... Any responses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Just for the record, is the proposal 24 hours on followed by 3 (is that possible ?) days off ? If you take one vacation day(24 hours) you get four days off? How many vacation days or hours do they get? Simple math, no, algebra : fireman "a" takes sick day under current schedule = 10/14 hours sick time. Under new schedule = 24 hours sick time. If we choose to replace rather then run short, we pay fireman "a" 24 hours overtime rather than 10/14 hours overtime. What if fireman "a" works OT shift, followed by regular shift. Now working 48 consecutive hours? What about fatigue factor? Let's talk about fatigue. Squad "A" responds to physically and emotionally challenging event early in shift..will this lead to fatigue and lack of alertness if needed to respon to another event later, towards the end of 24 hour shift schedule? What about covering a shift for a co-worker; again, working 48 consecutive hours? If the 24 hour shifts require less shifts, what about the number of supervisors needed to cover the current shifts? Will we need less supervisors ? By the way, never did answer what the ratio of supervisors to firefighters is... as far as living out of town, let's be honest.. this is an ENORMOUS With covers negociated over the passed few contracts the 95% of the KFD are actually working 24 hr. shifts from June 1-Sept. 30. This has been going on for quite some time now. The past few Fire contract that the town shot down the 24 hr. shifts the firemen negotiated more covers. That # now allows them to work this type of shift the whole summer. I'm sure if there is no settlement from the town & the aribtrator dosen't award the shift change that the firemen will be given even more covers so they can extend that summer period longer, which has absolutly no savings to the town. Eventually in future contracts the firemen will negociate enough covers to cover the entire year & then they won't need the 24 hr. shift change & the town will completely lose any chance they had to save anything!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhoAreYou Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Joe H. Be a man or probably more of a women and come forward........I will give you chief eggers' (JCFD) number personally stop holding little personal grudges!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CCoolidge Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Has progress been made in our fire contract negotiations? Yes, I believe so. But not nearly enough to suit my tastes. I think the problem is that the Town Council does not take an active enough role in the negotiation process. The problem may be the Council doesnt really have a roll...everything is Dictated by J D'Arco and Lawyers ( way to many for this town ) . Maybe if the town did not PAY so much in Retainers and Legal fees because of so many conflicting opinions by all our Lawyers, they could sit and negotiate a fair contract. BTW J. D'Arco was hired to save this town money ...he may save in some areas BUT HOW MUCH does HE Really Cost This Town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CCoolidge Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 By the way, never did answer what the ratioof supervisors to firefighters is... as far as living out of town, let's be honest.. this is an ENORMOUS Joe H So you know for the past 15 years the amount living in and out of town has ranged from 48 to 52% . I d say that no matter what Job a person has with the cost of living in Kearny and the service cuts being created anyone looking to raise children are better OFF movingto another part of this state . 27.75% is your answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mangin Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Look, if this is such a no-brainer, why the hold-up withnegotiating the contract. I gotta think the Town would like to save the money. I'm just thinking maybe there are other issues involved. Tell me if I'm wrong... By the way, if you guys are right, and the Town saves money, and the KFD gets more staffing for less dollars spent, then of course let's do it. Then the next thing would be to re-negotiate the KPD schedules and realize savings there there too ... Any responses? I'll try to answer some of these questions regarding the 24 hour shifts. First, you don't get "more staffing for less hours spent." The number of hours worked is the same as a 10-14 schedule so there is no money savings there. Where the Town saves money is that 24 hour shifts have been proven to reduce sick-outs and overtime. Regarding fatigue, it has also been proven that 24 hour shifts reduce a firefighters' fatigue by giving him a longer period to recuperate after a fire or after an injury. Less sick out calls equal less overtime to cover. And what about "covers", vacation days, etc? There is an agreed-upon formula used to convert the days to fit a 24 hour schedule. No more, no less than a 10-14 schedule. But no one has to take my word for this. Just google on "PERC Docket Number IA-99-069" and read the award of 9-5-2001. Anyone interested in the decision to switch to 24 hour shifts (especially Town Council members!) should read the PERC Clifton decision. You'll find all the answers you need there. It made a convert out of me. Councilman Jim Mangin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe H. Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 WhoAreYou, please.....struck a nerve? I've got no personal grudge and no axe to grind. This thread is about the KFD contract and I didn't start it.. but if you want to put it out there and discuss it then be prepared to answer questions. Why would I call Chief Eggers? Are the KFD and JCFD comparable agencies? Probably not, either in size or operations. Let's also be clear.. I am not connected to any politician or the Town administration. I am on record as being in favor of this if it saves money and improves KFD operations. I'll go further, I agree it's outrageous that you are without a contract for three years, that shouldn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mangin Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Mr. mangin, council and mayor,ing   Has the fire fighters monies for raises been put aside or is it part of the 4 mil surplus???? Why wouldnt you be interested in savings??? This is a very good question. I know the answer but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to answer. On the one hand, budget appropriations are public documents and any member of the public is free to inspect them. But, how much money the Town has on hand to settle the fire contracts could actually impact the negotiations. As such, that information may not be available to the public. This is really an excellent question. My suggestion: I would be more than happy to provide any member of the public with the information they seek. Just come to the next Town Council meeting on Sept. 23 and pose the question to the mayor. He will then ask the Town Attorney for an opinion as to whether the information can be disclosed. As long as I'm sure I won't get censured by the mayor, I'll gladly explain where we stand. This is not a cop-out. Anyone who knows me knows I believe the public is entitled to every single piece of information they want. Unfortunately, this is one of the areas where the mayor and I disagree. Councilman Jim Mangin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOTW Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Here is the link to the case I believe Councilman Mangin was referring to Click on the Blue Links with the Case Names at the bottom of the page to access the decisions. You have to have Acrobat Reader installed to read the files. Click Here for Webpage Referred to by Councilman Mangin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDofLV Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Joe H. Be a man or probably more of a women and come forward........I will give you chief eggers' (JCFD) number personally stop holding little personal grudges!!! What was that all about? It appeared to me that Joe H was just trying to stimulate some discussion to get to the root of things, didn't seem like he was taking any sides at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest frank Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 is a vol. dept out of the ? its a honest ? dont go ape s%$# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACAD Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 the town cank keep on ambulance in service never mind fire/rescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StudiesNObservations Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 is a vol. dept out of the ? its a honest ? dont go ape s%$# We cant get anough people to volunteer to have an ambulance with 2 people available 24/7/365, HOW do you propose to get enough folks to volunteer to staff an entire FD??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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