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Guest George Burdell

Why Iraq?

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Guest Loki
Loki

In your own words you say "The Koran (Qu'Ran) tells them to fight the infidels wherever you find them, make no mistake, this means us. "  yet you seem to support Bush's actions which include championing the adoption of a constitution which establishes Islam as the state religion of Iraq.

Being that the Koran is the backbone of Islam what is your logic in supporting a state whose people are by their own constitution told to fight us?

Please forgive the optimist in me that assumes that there are people within Iraq and the Islamic faith who want to live in peace. As I said in an earlier post, Christianity in earlier times, had a dark side where conquest was part of its history. It is my hope that these two religions can coexist peacefully. I honestly don't care what religion anyone practices, I do maintain a hope that whichever religion it is there is a difference between right and wrong, good and evil. (No I will not say what is right/ wrong, it is not my place; my actions are guided by my own values, and everyone does the same.)

As to the establishment of a state religion, I don't think its a good idea, but its not my country; if that's what they want, they get to choose. This country might be a better place if we remembered that our own country was founded on certain values of Judeo-Christian principles. While this doesn't establish a "state religion" it acknowledges a common "code of conduct", if you will. Best not to forget the things that got you to where you are today.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

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Guest George Burdell
Please forgive the optimist in me that assumes that there are people within Iraq and the Islamic faith who want to live in peace.  As I said in an earlier post, Christianity in earlier times, had a dark side where conquest was part of its history.  It is my hope that these two religions can coexist peacefully.  I honestly don't care what religion anyone practices, I do maintain a hope that whichever religion it is there is a difference between right and wrong, good and evil.  (No I will not say what is right/ wrong, it is not my place; my actions are guided by my own values, and everyone does the same.)

As to the establishment of a state religion, I don't think its a good idea, but its not my country; if that's what they want, they get to choose.  This country might be a better place if we remembered that our own country was founded on certain values of Judeo-Christian principles.  While this doesn't establish a "state religion" it acknowledges a common "code of conduct", if you will.  Best not to forget the things that got you to where you are today.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

There is much we can agree on, I totally suport religious freedom or the right not to practice a religion if that's your choice. It's just the establishment of a state religion, especially one that has conflicting sects, worries me. I have no doubt we are doing some good things in Iraq, I just have questions about their longevity and cost. If five years down the road their is civil war or an Anti-American government in place we really won't have accomplished much.

And I don't necessarily believe Christianity's dark side is limited to earlier times. There are some radical fundamentalists out in the world who scare me as much as any other zealots. And I'm not particularly interested in hearing the likes of Falwell and Robertson tell us 9/11 was the work of a vengeful God.

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Guest Good Ol' Boy
His test scores were higher then Kerrys.

While written in jest I was trying to make the point that when asked to justify Bush's actions his supporters are very quick to knock Clinton, Gore, or Kerry. Those are totally irrelevent responses, Bush is the president and it's his actions that are open to question.

And as far as test scores, are they documented? What tests? And your point is? Tests very often have no real world significance. We very often hear of those with advanced degrees in engineering who have would have trouble changing a flat tire.

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Guest Guest
Please forgive the optimist in me that assumes that there are people within Iraq and the Islamic faith who want to live in peace.  As I said in an earlier post, Christianity in earlier times, had a dark side where conquest was part of its history.  It is my hope that these two religions can coexist peacefully.  I honestly don't care what religion anyone practices, I do maintain a hope that whichever religion it is there is a difference between right and wrong, good and evil.  (No I will not say what is right/ wrong, it is not my place; my actions are guided by my own values, and everyone does the same.)

As to the establishment of a state religion, I don't think its a good idea, but its not my country; if that's what they want, they get to choose.  This country might be a better place if we remembered that our own country was founded on certain values of Judeo-Christian principles.  While this doesn't establish a "state religion" it acknowledges a common "code of conduct", if you will.  Best not to forget the things that got you to where you are today.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

Many of the founding fathers were deists, a deist basically believes that God created the world and then went about his other business. Maybe this would be a better place if we did things for human reasons and didn't try to justify them as God's work. I've known far too many people who lie, cheat, and steal during the week yet after an hour of church on Sunday proudly proclaim themselves saints.

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Guest George Burdell
Please forgive the optimist in me that assumes that there are people within Iraq and the Islamic faith who want to live in peace.  As I said in an earlier post, Christianity in earlier times, had a dark side where conquest was part of its history.  It is my hope that these two religions can coexist peacefully.  I honestly don't care what religion anyone practices, I do maintain a hope that whichever religion it is there is a difference between right and wrong, good and evil.  (No I will not say what is right/ wrong, it is not my place; my actions are guided by my own values, and everyone does the same.)

As to the establishment of a state religion, I don't think its a good idea, but its not my country; if that's what they want, they get to choose.  This country might be a better place if we remembered that our own country was founded on certain values of Judeo-Christian principles.  While this doesn't establish a "state religion" it acknowledges a common "code of conduct", if you will.  Best not to forget the things that got you to where you are today.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

Just for the record I have never believed that Muslims, Christians, Jews and whoever else wants to join in couldn't peacefully co-exist, they must for there to be a future on this rock. From my admittedly limited reading about Islam I don't believe one of its core values is to kill, convert yes but that's an entirely different issue. The real problem is zealots, extremists, radicals, whatever you choose to call them. Religion, nationality, ethnicity, whatever, when someone's point of view narrows so much it sees no other is when the problems begin.

I just wondered how you could cite the Koran as saying it tells them to fight us and then back its adoption.

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Guest Guest
Oh yes, that's the same thing as having your head cut off. :blink:

Now I'm not condoning it by any means and it certainly is barbaric visually but in all honesty, for the victim I think there are probably worse ways to die. I'd rather quick and relatively painless than a long, slow death given my druthers.

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Guest Guest
Yeah that may be a bit misguided, but at least they didn't cut your head off.

If you bring up cutting off heads to justify Bush it's meaningless. One of the consequences of traveling to or invading another country is you make yourself subject to local customs and law. And objectively, don't be so quick to yell heathens! It isn't that long ago that the electric chair was used in the US, if you think that's more humane than decapitation you've obviously never read the tales of Old Sparky. It's time Americans realized there are other countries in the world, they are not like the US, and it's futile to attempt to make them like the US.

And I believe you should put your own house in order before you try to impose yourself on others. In my opinion it was disgraceful that George W Bush, a man who in his own words has accepted Jesus Christ into his life, had to be convinced to bar torture, and cruel and inhumane treatement and did so only because he didn't have the votes to do otherwise. Torture, etc. certainly are contrary to any Christian teachings I've ever been exposed to and I think give a poor impression of what really lies in the man's heart.

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Guest Guest
Now I'm not condoning it by any means and it certainly is barbaric visually but in all honesty, for the victim I think there are probably worse ways to die.  I'd rather quick and relatively painless than a long, slow death given my druthers.

Quick and painless? You are a silly person.

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Guest Guest
If you bring up cutting off heads to justify Bush it's meaningless.  One of the consequences of traveling to or invading another country is you make yourself subject to local customs and law.  And objectively, don't be so quick to yell heathens!  It isn't that long ago that the electric chair was used in the US, if you think that's more humane than decapitation you've obviously never read the tales of Old Sparky.  It's time Americans realized there are other countries in the world, they are not like the US, and it's futile to attempt to make them like the US.

And I believe you should put your own house in order before you try to impose yourself on others. In my opinion it was disgraceful that George W Bush, a man who in his own words has accepted Jesus Christ into his life, had to be convinced to bar torture, and cruel and inhumane treatement and did so only because he didn't have the votes to do otherwise.  Torture, etc. certainly are contrary to any Christian teachings I've ever been exposed to and I think give a poor impression of what really lies in the man's heart.

So now you want to compare putting a convicted criminal in the electric chair to cutting off the head of some innocent guy trying to make a living installing cell phone equipment.

We have another winner here. :P

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Guest Guest
Quick and painless? You are a silly person.

Not at all, just realistic. It's no different than if I had a terminal illness that guaranteed a long, painful end, give me a gun, please.

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So now you want to compare putting a convicted criminal in the electric chair to cutting off the head of some innocent guy trying to make a living installing cell phone equipment.

We have another winner here. :P

Not at all, just comparing methods, not reasons.

And I'm objective enough to see the other point of view, if I saw a group of people in strange uniforms marching down my street carrying weapons and forcing their way into houses I'd damn sure be shooting at them, I suppose you'd be overjoyed to just hand over everything you'd worked for and walk away?

People who knowingly enter a war zone to work and triple and quadruple their normal earnings do so knowing they are entering a war zone. It's a CHOICE they made.

Like I said, get your OWN house in order before you would change others. If you say that we should tortue because they torture we become just like them, only thing different is the flags being waved.

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Guest Guest
So now you want to compare putting a convicted criminal in the electric chair to cutting off the head of some innocent guy trying to make a living installing cell phone equipment.

We have another winner here. :P

Don't want to compare anything but people should realize that when there's a war going on there is a great possibility of injury or death. Far too many people seem to think it's a glorious John Wayne rah, rah, rah, flag waving time. To paraphrase Truman if you can't stand the blood stay out of the bloodbath.

I know that for a long time the penalty for theft in many Islamic countries has been the removal of a hand. If you go to an Islamic country, steal, and have a hand removed I really don't have much sympathy, you are responsible for your actions.

The problem with countries like Afghanistan and Iraq is that even though the central government (Taliban,Saddam) has been deposed there are tribal elements to the societies that haven't followed the central governments in years, when you make the choice to enter their territory you do so at your own risk.

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So now you want to compare putting a convicted criminal in the electric chair to cutting off the head of some innocent guy trying to make a living installing cell phone equipment.

We have another winner here. :P

Have you ever seen the results of a Kamikaze attack? Have you ever seen the results of a V2 rocket hitting an apartment building? Have you ever seen the results of a bullet to the head? Have you ever seen the results of a napalm attack? Do you really believe one kind of dead is different from another kind of dead? Do you really believe there was ever a war in history where atrocities weren't commited by both sides?

Another winner? YOU are the winner! You win the "Going Through Life With Blinders On" Award.

Do us all a favor and grow up! If you choose to stck your hand in a fire don't walk around crying you got burned, place the blame squarely on yourself, the only place it belongs.

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Guest Guest
Yeah that may be a bit misguided, but at least they didn't cut your head off.

Why don't you pull your head out of the sand and realize when you go to an area where there is a war that people get killed and horribly maimed. Why do think people question the war? To make a republican/democrat battle? Don't be such a damn idiot! We understand what war is, you yahoos who like to thump your chest like some crazy gorilla and wave the flag don't seem to understand its deadly seriousness. When we ask why? here's an awful lot of people who say because Clinton got a BJ, I hardly think that's a reason and I've heard or seen damn little evidence that this cowboy exhausted all other alternatives before commiting America blood. If you think questioning this man is wrong, this man who ran off to Alabama to hide from a war yet so easily commited others to a war then you can kiss my American butt.

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As for the reason for Vietnam, how about a large portion of the Vietnamese population didn't want to live under communist rule.  Seeing the fact that 99% of the country is still living in pre-historic times maybe they were right.  The reason we lost, and lost so many soldiers, was because of people like you wanting the war fought with our hands tied.

As far as Iraq goes, the last I heard, all of the soldiers that are there are volunteered for military duty.  They volunteered to go anywhere this country told them to go and do anything this country told them to do.  It seems that they are doing this without complaining and most importantly they believe in their mission.  The Senate and Congress voted in favor of this war based on the intelligence, if they chose to read it, that was available.

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Guest Guest
Not at all, just comparing methods, not reasons.

And I'm objective enough to see the other point of view, if I saw a group of people in strange uniforms marching down my street carrying weapons and forcing their way into houses I'd damn sure be shooting at them, I suppose you'd be overjoyed to just hand over everything you'd worked for and walk away?

People who knowingly enter a war zone to work and triple and quadruple their normal earnings do so knowing they are entering a war zone.  It's a CHOICE they made.

Like I said, get your OWN house in order before you would change others.  If you say that we should tortue because they torture we become just like them, only thing different is the flags being waved.

You are truly an idiot. You sound like the type of fool who would make the argument that a woman deserved to get raped because of the way she dressed.

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Guest Guest
Not at all, just comparing methods, not reasons.

And I'm objective enough to see the other point of view, if I saw a group of people in strange uniforms marching down my street carrying weapons and forcing their way into houses I'd damn sure be shooting at them, I suppose you'd be overjoyed to just hand over everything you'd worked for and walk away?

People who knowingly enter a war zone to work and triple and quadruple their normal earnings do so knowing they are entering a war zone.  It's a CHOICE they made.

Like I said, get your OWN house in order before you would change others.  If you say that we should tortue because they torture we become just like them, only thing different is the flags being waved.

Wrong again. Better than 90% of the insurgents are not from Iraq. So stop trying to depict them as freedom fighters.

And the last time I checked, the US Military didn't condone beheading civilians or prisoners. Unfortunately, we abide by the Geneva Conventions.

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Don't want to compare anything but people should realize that when there's  a war going on there is a great possibility of injury or death.  Far too many people seem to think it's a glorious John Wayne rah, rah, rah, flag waving time.  To paraphrase Truman if you can't stand the blood stay out of the bloodbath.

I know that for a long time the penalty for theft in many Islamic countries has been the removal of a hand.  If you go to an Islamic country, steal, and have a hand removed I really don't have much sympathy, you are responsible for your actions.

The problem with countries like Afghanistan and Iraq is that even though the central government (Taliban,Saddam) has been deposed there are tribal elements to the societies that haven't followed the central governments in years, when you make the choice to enter their territory you do so at your own risk.

That's exactly the point. These are rogue nations at best and the time has come to deal with them.

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You are truly an idiot.  You sound like the type of fool who would make the argument that a woman deserved to get raped because of the way she dressed.

I'd say there's a vast difference between an armed invasion of someone's else's territory and the way a woman dresses, if you don't understand the difference it's YOU who truly is an idiot.

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Wrong again.  Better than 90% of the insurgents are not from Iraq. So stop trying to depict them as freedom fighters.

And the last time I checked, the US Military didn't condone beheading civilians or prisoners.  Unfortunately, we abide by the Geneva Conventions.

And your "better than 90%" figure is based on what? Your imagination? You must have an active one claiming I try to depict them as freedom fighters. If you don't understand people everywhere tend to defend what's theirs you truly are an idiot.

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That's exactly the point.  These are rogue nations at best and the time has come to deal with them.

That's also the problem, deposing Saddam may well lead to someone worse and in any event doesn't subdue the tribes, it's a moving target.

Attacking Iraq does nothing to contain cells in other countries and I don't think we have the resources to try and contain every rogue nation, I think we'd be much better served by strengthening ourselves internally, and that doesn't mean using Homeland Security money to buy $300,000 worth of garbage trucks for Newark.

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Guest Radagast
Wrong again.  Better than 90% of the insurgents are not from Iraq. So stop trying to depict them as freedom fighters.

And the last time I checked, the US Military didn't condone beheading civilians or prisoners.  Unfortunately, we abide by the Geneva Conventions.

That is an absolute lie. If anything, 90% of the fighting is being done by locals. Even the US Military will tell you that. Why do you resort to lies to make your point? ... Oh, I forgot, you're just emulating your fearless leader Chickenhawk Bush.

The Saudis have chopped off way more civilian heads then the insurgency ever will...and the Suadi's are our allies. I thought Gonzo Gonzalez said the Geneva Conventions didn't count anymore. Somebody better tell those outside contractors we hired to torture people that they have to stop.

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