Jump to content

A proposed solution to school uniforms


Guest Paul

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 116
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

If a female student is in school with her breasts exposed, do you really expect him and everyone else not to notice? The purpose of taking a photograph of the student in the prohibited clothing is to protect the teacher or administrator who reports the violation, among other things.

But, it is an uncomfortable position for a male teacher to be in.

Link to post
Share on other sites
What is this in response to?

Uh, how about the post it was a reply to? Doi.

Make some sense.

He needs the advice more: http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php...indpost&p=64454

The fact that someone thought that was a good question was humorous to me, that's all. Come on, now. How cryptic could it really have been? Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Link to post
Share on other sites
What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

My answer would be as follows:

"The human visual field is approximately 160 degrees from side to side and more than 90 degrees vertically. That means that when I walk down the hall in school I can see several dozen students from head to toe simultaneously. If one of them is wearing purple clown's shoes with curled toes, I'll notice. That doesn't mean that I am looking at everyone's feet, or anyone's feet. It means that something caught my eye. Or, if I'm walking down the hall and see smoke pouring out of one of the classrooms, that doesn't mean that I have a fire fixation. We notice what is within our visual fields and draws our attention. The human eye is so finely developed for detail that if you have two dozen people on a stage, standing completely still, and one of them twitches an eyebrow, most people will notice it; it doesn't mean they have a thing for eyebrows.

"Your top is in violation of the dress code, and so it drew my attention. I noticed it as I was walking down the hall before school and you were with several other female students. Three of them were wearing sweaters up to the neckline, two of them were wearing standard blouses, and you were wearing a low-cut top. I wasn't looking at your breasts. Your clothing is in obvious violation of our dress code, and if you think for one second that a remark like that is going to get you off the hook, I suggest you think again."

I disagree that this puts male teachers in a bad position, but you know what, if you really think that it does, there are plenty of female teachers and orher staff at Kearny High. If this was an issue, the appropriate way to deal with it would be for the female staff to police the female students.

People have the goofy idea these days that anyone can cause legal trouble over anything or nothing any time they like. It's just not so. Male teachers and administrators have been enforcing dress codes for generations without a problem. There's absolutely no reason why it should be a problem now, provided the dress code is specific and objective (which the current code is not). The staff just needs a little instruction on what they can and cannot do, and a little backbone.

The saddest part about this is that anyone would think you asked a good question. If teachers are that afraid of students, there's another problem that goes far deeper than the dress code, and which putting the students into uniforms won't fix. If this is what teachers are worried about, they need to grow a spine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
But, it is an uncomfortable position for a male teacher to be in.

Every confrontation with a student is uncomfortable for the teacher. Teachers are supposed to have the maturity and the character to stand up to that. That's part of what we're paying them for. Legally when they are in charge of high school students under the age of eighteen, the and the administrators are in loco parentis, which means that they take on the role of parents while the students are in the school. If they're not up to the job, then they shouldn't be teaching or serving as school administrators.

Link to post
Share on other sites
What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

You should be more concerned that your tramp of a daughter is exposing herself. Good job of parenting there, huh? It's called self respect.

Why is it that kids today seem to have lost even a basic respect for the world they live in?

Link to post
Share on other sites
So this is a security issue? If someone really wants to terrorize the school, bomb it, etc., by getting in under guise as a student, all the uniform does is make it easier. It's easy to buy a school uniform, and with the administration looking at that, they'll look less at the uniform than at the ID. So congratulations. You just increased the likelihood of terrorism by requiring uniforms, genius.

But someone in plain clothes wouldn't fit in? come on. We all know that if someone wants to attack, they will. Whether it be in a uniform or plain clothes. Can I ask if you've "argued" this at a town or BOE meeting? No ones opinion carries much weight on the site. I like the uniform idea, if you don't, share your thoughts where they will matter. But arguing here is getting no where. :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites
My answer would be as follows:

"The human visual field is approximately 160 degrees from side to side and more than 90 degrees vertically. That means that when I walk down the hall in school I can see several dozen students from head to toe simultaneously. If one of them is wearing purple clown's shoes with curled toes, I'll notice. That doesn't mean that I am looking at everyone's feet, or anyone's feet. It means that something caught my eye. Or, if I'm walking down the hall and see smoke pouring out of one of the classrooms, that doesn't mean that I have a fire fixation. We notice what is within our visual fields and draws our attention. The human eye is so finely developed for detail that if you have two dozen people on a stage, standing completely still, and one of them twitches an eyebrow, most people will notice it; it doesn't mean they have a thing for eyebrows.

"Your top is in violation of the dress code, and so it drew my attention. I noticed it as I was walking down the hall before school and you were with several other female students. Three of them were wearing sweaters up to the neckline, two of them were wearing standard blouses, and you were wearing a low-cut top. I wasn't looking at your breasts. Your clothing is in obvious violation of our dress code, and if you think for one second that a remark like that is going to get you off the hook, I suggest you think again."

I disagree that this puts male teachers in a bad position, but you know what, if you really think that it does, there are plenty of female teachers and orher staff at Kearny High. If this was an issue, the appropriate way to deal with it would be for the female staff to police the female students.

People have the goofy idea these days that anyone can cause legal trouble over anything or nothing any time they like. It's just not so. Male teachers and administrators have been enforcing dress codes for generations without a problem. There's  absolutely no reason why it should be a problem now, provided the dress code is specific and objective (which the current code is not). The staff just needs a little instruction on what they can and cannot do, and a little backbone.

The saddest part about this is that anyone would think you asked a good question. If teachers are that afraid of students, there's another problem that goes far deeper than the dress code, and which putting the students into uniforms won't fix. If this is what teachers are worried about, they need to grow a spine.

What planet are you on?

Link to post
Share on other sites
But someone in plain clothes wouldn't fit in? come on. We all know that if someone wants to attack, they will. Whether it be in a uniform or plain clothes. Can I ask if you've "argued" this at a town or BOE meeting? No ones opinion carries much weight on the site. I like the uniform idea, if you don't, share your thoughts where they will matter. But arguing here is getting no where.  ;)

Of course people in plain clothes would fit in. In fact, if they're smart, they will go out of their way to do so, and the smart ones are the ones you have to worry about. The only thing that would increase security are the name and photo ID badges, which the students are already required to wear. "Guest" was responding to the argument that uniforms are an appropriate response to terrorism after 9/11. The argument is not well taken. As Guest accurately pointed out, uniforms would have no effect in that regard except to give the illusion that everyone in a uniform belonged there, so that if anything uniforms would make the school less secure, not more secure. I think it's a small point, but on the other hand where terrorism is concerned, many people think there are no small points. In any case, "Guest's" point is on target.

If arguing the matter here is getting nowhere, then why are you doing it? I post here with the hope and intent of getting people to think these issues through more deeply and maybe change their minds.

Speaking for myself, I have also spoken against uniforms at a BoE meeting and recently wrote the BoE a letter on the subject. I would welcome a forum in which these ideas could be more fully debated. It would be inappropriate to bring this matter up at a town council meeting, as this is not within the town's jurisdiction.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course people in plain clothes would fit in. In fact, if they're smart, they will go out of their way to do so, and the smart ones are the ones you have to worry about. The only thing that would increase security are the name and photo ID badges, which the students are already required to wear. "Guest" was responding to the argument that uniforms are an appropriate response to terrorism after 9/11. The argument is not well taken. As Guest accurately pointed out, uniforms would have no effect in that regard except to give the illusion that everyone in a uniform belonged there, so that if anything uniforms would make the school less secure, not more secure. I think it's a small point, but on the other hand where terrorism is concerned, many people think there are no small points. In any case, "Guest's" point is on target.

If arguing the matter here is getting nowhere, then why are you doing it? I post here with the hope and intent of getting people to think these issues through more deeply and maybe change their minds.

Speaking for myself, I have also spoken against uniforms at a BoE meeting and recently wrote the BoE a letter on the subject. I would welcome a forum in which these ideas could be more fully debated. It would be inappropriate to bring this matter up at a town council meeting, as this is not within the town's jurisdiction.

I agree Paul, but are the right people involved in these discussions? Yes, there are parents, students, and possible some administration taking part in this thread, but will any of this talk make a difference in the outcome. I can't help feel that the decision for uniforms has already been made. Can I ask you as a parent, will your son wear a uniform if they are passed by the BOE? I'm just wondering how the administration will happen students that do not wear the uniforms.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The name wouldn't tell me that. The name is misleading. In fact, the name makes be a bit suspicious of the organization. Are similar organizations so named in other districts? Who decided to call it that, and why?

And although I've never been there, I'd be willing to bet that most parents haven't been there. So instead of trying to make villainize me at every turn, tell me when is the next meeting.

After the first week of school opens, look at Kearnyschools.com, then click on the calandar. You mean you have put one child through this school and a second is now a senior and you have never looked at the calander? How can you judge what goes on here?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Every confrontation with a student is uncomfortable for the teacher. Teachers are supposed to have the maturity and the character to stand up to that. That's part of what we're paying them for. Legally when they are in charge of high school students under the age of eighteen, the and the administrators are in loco parentis, which means that they take on the role of parents while the students are in the school. If they're not up to the job, then they shouldn't be teaching or serving as school administrators.

HA K-Town is out of control. Especially since statements like this are not at all "honest", seeing that some teachers do in fact believe that they are teenagers and they can SEDUCE 17 AND 18 YEAR OLDS.

Disgusting.

Uniforms? That's a joke. We've got more problems than this. Let's save our tax paying dollars on finding REAL TEACHERS.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree Paul, but are the right people involved in these discussions? Yes, there are parents, students, and possible some administration taking part in this thread, but will any of this talk make a difference in the outcome. I can't help feel that the decision for uniforms has already been made. Can I ask you as a parent, will your son wear a uniform if they are passed by the BOE? I'm just wondering how the administration will happen students that do not wear the uniforms.

I've written to the Board offering my input. I've participated here. What more would you like me to do?

Matthew's decision how to handle the situation if the uniform policy is made applicable to him will be his own. The law is such that if a student strongly opposes a uniform, even assuming that it is legally valid and enforceable on its face, there are still plenty of things that a student can do to express himself that the school district cannot stop.

Link to post
Share on other sites
After the first week of school opens, look at Kearnyschools.com, then click on the calandar. You mean you have put one child through this school and a second is now a senior and you have never looked at the calander?  How can you judge what goes on here?

Like every other parent, I have eyes and ears. With all due respect, all truth is not put forward at the local PTA.

Link to post
Share on other sites
After the first week of school opens, look at Kearnyschools.com, then click on the calandar. You mean you have put one child through this school and a second is now a senior and you have never looked at the calander?  How can you judge what goes on here?

I'll ask again. Who is the president of the "Home School" organization?

Link to post
Share on other sites
HA K-Town is out of control. Especially since statements like this are not at all "honest", seeing that some teachers do in fact believe that they are teenagers and they can SEDUCE 17 AND 18 YEAR OLDS. 

Disgusting.

Uniforms? That's a joke. We've got more problems than this. Let's save our tax paying dollars on finding REAL TEACHERS.

I agree. What the students wear is the least of the BOE problems? You have teachers resigning left and right because of the lack of support they receive from the higher ups. You have improprieties in the building, but all this will be resolved by a pair of khakis and a polo?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Like every other parent, I have eyes and ears. With all due respect, all truth is not put forward at the local PTA.

How can you say with all due respect and then say in the very same sentence that the people of the PTA are liars? That is again so hypocritical of you. It is comments like that that show you for what you really are, and the picture of you really is not painted a pretty one.

The only thing you did get right was that all parents have eyes and ears. Congratulations, you passed biology!

Link to post
Share on other sites
In posting on another topic, a thought occurred to me. I'm posting it here as a new topic and inviting comment. I really think this could resolve the school uniforms controversy. Here's my suggestion.

Offer a uniform on a voluntary basis. If a student violates the dress code, make the uniform mandatory for that student for the remainder of the school year. The administration should be required to take a photograph of the offensive clothing as proof, in case the student exercises the right (which all students have anyway) to challenge the punishment. That will put the school on firm legal ground and it should put a stop to violations. So as to ease the burden on administrators and avoid non-compliance with punishment, identify students who are required to wear uniforms to their teachers, and insist that the teachers as well as the administrators enforce the punishment.

This will allow parents who have trouble getting their kids dressed in the morning, as some have claimed, to choose the uniform and solve the problem in their home, which is the only place they have any right to be concerned about it.

Students won't violate the dress code because a single violation (or two or three if you like) would put them in a uniform the remainder of the year. They won't risk it, and if they do they'll learn a valuable lesson in personal responsibility. That should solve the problem of inappropriate dress, which is the main legitimate concern in support of uniforms.

It won't make everyone equal, but that is not the government's job.

It will preserve freedom, which is important, especially in the training of citizens in a free society, but at the same time it will make the limits of the dress code practical to enforce.

The school district won't even have to go through the pretense of paying for a uniform or two to get around the state requirement of a free public education. This will also save the taxpayers money.

I look forward to constructive comments.

Sure - but this fails to address one of the arguments for school uniforms - avoidance of "gang-related" clothing (i.e., colors). Starting to be a problem in Kearny, I am told.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree.  What the students wear is the least of the BOE problems?  You have teachers resigning left and right because of the lack of support they receive from the higher ups.  You have improprieties in the building, but all this will be resolved by a pair of khakis and a polo?

I don't know whether the situation is as bad as is presented in this post and the one it responds to, but I did recognize that the complaint about the dress code not being too hard to enforce it didn't ring true. Then I looked at the dress code and understood why no one wants to enforce it: it doesn't say anything, and on most issues of dress it probably wouldn't support any disciplinary action that was challenged. The remedy to that is to write a proper dress code. This has been done all over the country. There's no reason why it can't be done here. I do agree that khakis and a polo shirt won't solve any significant problem in our schools, and eventually the students will oppose it and the requirement will be ended anyway. It's not worth the fuss that will ensue sooner or later, and it certainly isn't the way a free people trains its youth to become citizens.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I've written to the Board offering my input. I've participated here. What more would you like me to do?

Matthew's decision how to handle the situation if the uniform policy is made applicable to him will be his own. The law is such that if a student strongly opposes a uniform, even assuming that it is legally valid and enforceable on its face, there are still plenty of things that a student can do to express himself that the school district cannot stop.

Fair enough, and thank you for your response. I don't believe there is really anything left to do, but wait. As I've said, I think the decision has already been made to enforce uniforms.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...