A proposed solution to school uniforms

[Strife767]

I think its a great suggestion, but who would enforce this? Having the teachers and administrators monitor offenders, and making sure the uniform is followed is another job for them.

Well, if they put some kind of distinguishing marking on a student's ID after they've 'crossed the line' indicating that they have to wear the uniform now, it would take no longer than a glance to know whether someone:

a. is supposed to be wearing one

b. if a is yes, if they are following the rule

I think keeping track of offenders, taking their picture for their "file" is a headache.

Well, considering one would have to do it a maximum of one time per student the entire school year (if they break the dress code again, I doubt it'd be worth it to take another picture--just the one to prove that they crossed the line once is enough), I'd consider it a trivial burden compared to all of the other rule-breaking the teachers and administration need to 'watch out' for.

Now, who would determine what is appropriate to wear? What is offensive to one is acceptable to another.

Come on, this is just laziness now. It's not very difficult, especially when we can see what other schools around us are doing and take their example, and adapt it to Kearny if need be.

I understand your attempt to compromise Paul, but I think this will be more work than its worth.

Freedom is worth a lot more work than Paul's idea would create, I must say.

Lets just agree to go 100% uniforms and be done with it. It doesn't have to match the grammer school kids, it could be something "cooler" like black pants/jeans and a Kearny High School shirt in school colors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This post, especially this last part, comes off as very apathetic and passive. Don't you care at all about these teenagers' freedom?

[Guest Paul]

Nice job ignoring this question.

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In the Scarlet Letter, Hester Prynne was forced to wear the letter "A" to point her out as an adultress. The only purpose was to embarrass her. By contrast, other students will be wearing uniforms, the purpose of which is not to embarrass but to control their behavior in a way they will have demonstrated they cannot. So nice try at an analogy, but it's not quite on target.

[Guest Paul]

So my child should be stereotypes as violating the dress code even if he did nothing wrong?  What a stupid idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It certainly would be.

[Guest Paul]

Two simple questions:  Have you been to a Kearny High School Home School Association meeting in the past three years?  If so, when, because I have never seen you there and you are trying to make a point about something you have no idea about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't, since I have no particular interest in home schooling, but if you'll tell me when the next one is, I'll try to come. Perhaps you can explain to me at that time what this has to do with mandatory school uniforms.

[Guest Paul]

In posting on another topic, a thought occurred to me. I'm posting it here as a new topic and inviting comment. I really think this could resolve the school uniforms controversy. Here's my suggestion.

Offer a uniform on a voluntary basis. If a student violates the dress code, make the uniform mandatory for that student for the remainder of the school year. The administration should be required to take a photograph of the offensive clothing as proof, in case the student exercises the right (which all students have anyway) to challenge the punishment. That will put the school on firm legal ground and it should put a stop to violations. So as to ease the burden on administrators and avoid non-compliance with punishment, identify students who are required to wear uniforms to their teachers, and insist that the teachers as well as the administrators enforce the punishment.

** I agree on re-writing the "dress code". Making sure it is clear to all of what is acceptable. I don't think putting a student in a uniform for the remainder of the year will work as a punishment. How do you keep track of who should be in uniform? That would only lead to more work and confusion for the faculty and administration. If a student violates the code, he/she should be sent to the office and picked up by the parent to go home and change, but, they receive a "cut slip" for the classes they miss until returning back to school. And if the parent can't get to school to pick up their kid, they stay in the office till school is out and receive a cut slip for every class missed that day. Also a letter sent home to the parent explaining the "cut slips".

The dress code can be very simple, here is my suggestion:

1. Collared shirts must be worn. (buttoned down shirts w/ collar, turtlenecks, mock turtlenecks, polos, Hawaiian shirts, ect.) Even dresses and sleeveless shirts must have a collar. You can layer your outfit w/ a tee shirt and buttoned down collared shirt. As long as you have a collar!

2. Pants can be any color, any material including jeans.

3. Shorts, shirts, caprices may be worn anytime.( these cannot be shorter than the students finger tips when standing at attention)

4. Under no circumstances is any skin exposed on stomach, back and breasts. (this includes when sitting and bending over and even if your wearing layers)

5. Coats and jackets are not accepted as a layered look.

*All first period or administrative station teachers can be responsible for sending a form with any students names on it who are in violation to the office, and they don't even have to speak to the student about it. The students can be called to the office at interval times throughout the morning to alleviate any congestion or embarrassment this may cause at the office.

I think this can be a start and "tweaked" to make an acceptable dress code for everyone, and it's clearly written so there is no misunderstanding.

Anyone want to add to this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought about an affirmative dress code like this, but would need to think through all the possibilities. We could work on it together if you contact me.

[Guest Paul]

In posting on another topic, a thought occurred to me. I'm posting it here as a new topic and inviting comment. I really think this could resolve the school uniforms controversy. Here's my suggestion.

Offer a uniform on a voluntary basis. If a student violates the dress code, make the uniform mandatory for that student for the remainder of the school year. The administration should be required to take a photograph of the offensive clothing as proof, in case the student exercises the right (which all students have anyway) to challenge the punishment. That will put the school on firm legal ground and it should put a stop to violations. So as to ease the burden on administrators and avoid non-compliance with punishment, identify students who are required to wear uniforms to their teachers, and insist that the teachers as well as the administrators enforce the punishment.

** I agree on re-writing the "dress code". Making sure it is clear to all of what is acceptable. I don't think putting a student in a uniform for the remainder of the year will work as a punishment. How do you keep track of who should be in uniform? That would only lead to more work and confusion for the faculty and administration. If a student violates the code, he/she should be sent to the office and picked up by the parent to go home and change, but, they receive a "cut slip" for the classes they miss until returning back to school. And if the parent can't get to school to pick up their kid, they stay in the office till school is out and receive a cut slip for every class missed that day. Also a letter sent home to the parent explaining the "cut slips".

The dress code can be very simple, here is my suggestion:

1. Collared shirts must be worn. (buttoned down shirts w/ collar, turtlenecks, mock turtlenecks, polos, Hawaiian shirts, ect.) Even dresses and sleeveless shirts must have a collar. You can layer your outfit w/ a tee shirt and buttoned down collared shirt. As long as you have a collar!

2. Pants can be any color, any material including jeans.

3. Shorts, shirts, caprices may be worn anytime.( these cannot be shorter than the students finger tips when standing at attention)

4. Under no circumstances is any skin exposed on stomach, back and breasts. (this includes when sitting and bending over and even if your wearing layers)

5. Coats and jackets are not accepted as a layered look.

*All first period or administrative station teachers can be responsible for sending a form with any students names on it who are in violation to the office, and they don't even have to speak to the student about it. The students can be called to the office at interval times throughout the morning to alleviate any congestion or embarrassment this may cause at the office.

I think this can be a start and "tweaked" to make an acceptable dress code for everyone, and it's clearly written so there is no misunderstanding.

Anyone want to add to this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To answer your question, all students are required to wear ID badges. Students required to wear uniforms could be so identified on their badges. It's interesting that no one complains that the badges are too hard to enforce. Certainly if the administration can enforce a small badge, they can guard against an exposed breast.

[Guest Paul]

I think its a great suggestion, but who would enforce this? Having the teachers and administrators monitor offenders, and making sure the uniform is followed is another job for them. I think keeping track of offenders, taking their picture for their "file" is a headache. Now, who would determine what is appropriate to wear? What is offensive to one is acceptable to another. I understand your attempt to compromise Paul, but I think this will be more work than its worth. Lets just agree to go 100% uniforms and be done with it. It doesn't have to match the grammer school kids, it could be something "cooler" like black pants/jeans and a Kearny High School shirt in school colors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think enforcement would be very manageable. With a clear code and real teeth in a punishment, violations would be kept to a minimum, thereby also teaching the students a sense of personal responsibility, which you don't get with a uniform. All that teaches is mindless conformity. To teach responsibility, you have to leave some room for choice.

[Guest Guest]

In the Scarlet Letter, Hester Prynne was forced to wear the letter "A" to point her out as an adultress. The only purpose was to embarrass her. By contrast, other students will be wearing uniforms, the purpose of which is not to embarrass but to control their behavior in a way they will have demonstrated they cannot. So nice try at an analogy, but it's not quite on target.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is perfectly on target.

Each kid who violates you proposal will be embarassed in their own way. There is no reason to create a caste system, where the violators stick out like a sore thumb.

[Strife767]

It is perfectly on target.

Each kid who violates you proposal will be embarassed in their own way.  There is no reason to create a caste system, where the violators stick out like a sore thumb.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What part of "By contrast, other students will be wearing uniforms, the purpose of which is not to embarrass but to control their behavior in a way they will have demonstrated they cannot." do you not understand?

It's a very simple concept. If you abuse a privilege (wearing what you like and having only to adhere to a fair dress code), you lose it. Authorities apply this logic to kids all the time--why is it suddenly such an outrageous idea when it comes to this?

[Guest Paul]

It is perfectly on target.

Each kid who violates you proposal will be embarassed in their own way.  There is no reason to create a caste system, where the violators stick out like a sore thumb.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a reason. There is no other way to enforce the most reasonable solution to what some perceive as a problem. It's always embarrassing both for youth and for adults to be punished, but if students don't wish to be embarrassed, then they should follow the rules.

[Guest Guest]

Home schooling - that tells us where this person is coming from.

What his or her point is remains a mystery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its not home schooling. Its where the parents of the high school go to meet to find out about what is going on. Meeting are monthly in the high school. It is the parent PTA, I don't know why they call it the Home School Association but it is. You have no idea how Kearny High even operates so why do you post here ?

[Guest Guest]

I haven't, since I have no particular interest in home schooling, but if you'll tell me when the next one is, I'll try to come. Perhaps you can explain to me at that time what this has to do with mandatory school uniforms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about home schooling. You talk about things you have no idea about but like to hear yourself talk. The Kearny High Home School Association is the Kearny High Parent Teacher Association (PTA). They just call it the home school association. This is again why you have no clue about what is going on .

[Guest 2smart4u]

In the Scarlet Letter, Hester Prynne was forced to wear the letter "A" to point her out as an adultress. The only purpose was to embarrass her. By contrast, other students will be wearing uniforms, the purpose of which is not to embarrass but to control their behavior in a way they will have demonstrated they cannot. So nice try at an analogy, but it's not quite on target.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great idea. Matthew could wear an "S" for snitch on his uniform.

[Guest Guest]

I think enforcement would be very manageable. With a clear code and real teeth in a punishment, violations would be kept to a minimum, thereby also teaching the students a sense of personal responsibility, which you don't get with a uniform. All that teaches is mindless conformity. To teach responsibility, you have to leave some room for choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't wait until Matthew gets a uniform. Hoping you indorse this policy. That is going to be interesting and surely a court case.

[Guest Guest]

Well, if they put some kind of distinguishing marking on a student's ID after they've 'crossed the line' indicating that they have to wear the uniform now, it would take no longer than a glance to know whether someone:

a. is supposed to be wearing one

b. if a is yes, if they are following the rule

Well, considering one would have to do it a maximum of one time per student the entire school year (if they break the dress code again, I doubt it'd be worth it to take another picture--just the one to prove that they crossed the line once is enough), I'd consider it a trivial burden compared to all of the other rule-breaking the teachers and administration need to 'watch out' for.

Come on, this is just laziness now. It's not very difficult, especially when we can see what other schools around us are doing and take their example, and adapt it to Kearny if need be.

Freedom is worth a lot more work than Paul's idea would create, I must say.

This post, especially this last part, comes off as very apathetic and passive. Don't you care at all about these teenagers' freedom?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for taking such an interest in my post. Bottom line, it doesn't come down to colors or marked ID tags. Why do you think this town and surrounding cities are trying to enforce a uniform? Someone mentioned it is only since 911, uniforms being enforced, airports security..ect. Isn't it better to know who belongs or doesn't belong in the Kearny Schools? Yes, I agree there a flaws in the plan, but truthfully, uniforms will most likely be Kearny High this fall. You say I'm being passive. Why, because I don't find a problem with students dressing like they belong to the same school.

You ask if I "care at all about these teenagers" yes I do care, I have a teenager as well. I think uniforms are a great idea. I attended a catholic school (I realize this is public school we're talking about) but there is a degree of respect when wearing a uniform. Do you carry yourself the same way when you wear a suit compared to a pair of relaxed jeans?

[Guest Paul]

It's not about home schooling. You talk about things you have no idea about but like to hear yourself talk. The Kearny High Home School Association is the Kearny High Parent Teacher Association (PTA). They just call it the home school association.  This is again why you have no clue about what is going on .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The name wouldn't tell me that. The name is misleading. In fact, the name makes be a bit suspicious of the organization. Are similar organizations so named in other districts? Who decided to call it that, and why?

And although I've never been there, I'd be willing to bet that most parents haven't been there. So instead of trying to make villainize me at every turn, tell me when is the next meeting.

[Guest Paul]

Great idea. Matthew could wear an "S" for snitch on his uniform.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you could wear an A.

[Guest Guest]

To answer your question, all students are required to wear ID badges. Students required to wear uniforms could be so identified on their badges. It's interesting that no one complains that the badges are too hard to enforce. Certainly if the administration can enforce a small badge, they can guard against an exposed breast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

[Strife767]

What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you assume the teacher is male?

[Guest Guest]

It's not about home schooling. You talk about things you have no idea about but like to hear yourself talk. The Kearny High Home School Association is the Kearny High Parent Teacher Association (PTA). They just call it the home school association.  This is again why you have no clue about what is going on .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is the president of this association?

[Guest Guest]

What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good question. Paul?

[Strife767]

Good question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest PBB]

What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His job.

[Guest Guest]

Thanks for taking such an interest in my post. Bottom line, it doesn't come down to colors or marked ID tags. Why do you think this town and surrounding cities are trying to enforce a uniform? Someone mentioned it is only since 911, uniforms being enforced, airports security..ect. Isn't it better to know who belongs or doesn't belong in the Kearny Schools? Yes, I agree there a flaws in the plan, but truthfully, uniforms will most likely be Kearny High this fall. You say I'm being passive. Why, because I don't find a problem with students dressing like they belong to the same school.

You ask if I "care at all about these teenagers" yes I do care, I have a teenager as well. I think uniforms are a great idea. I attended a catholic school (I realize this is public school we're talking about) but there is a degree of respect when wearing a uniform. Do you carry yourself the same way when you wear a suit compared to a pair of relaxed jeans?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So this is a security issue? If someone really wants to terrorize the school, bomb it, etc., by getting in under guise as a student, all the uniform does is make it easier. It's easy to buy a school uniform, and with the administration looking at that, they'll look less at the uniform than at the ID. So congratulations. You just increased the likelihood of terrorism by requiring uniforms, genius.

[Guest Guest]

What is your male teacher doing looking at my daughter's breasts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If a female student is in school with her breasts exposed, do you really expect him and everyone else not to notice? The purpose of taking a photograph of the student in the prohibited clothing is to protect the teacher or administrator who reports the violation, among other things.