School Uniforms

[Guest Mom also]

I have spoken with several students who are opposed to the uniforms for different reasons.  The #1 reason being that they feel comfortable in the clothes they wear and some feel that a uniform will take away from who they are.  Unless the teachers and administrators are also forced to wear uniforms, the students shouldn't have to.  The BOE needs to address real issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree with you mom, some of the teachers have lots of skin hanging out also. I agree if the students need to be told what to wear then so should the staff. These are young adults not babies. They should be treated like it. For those who can not wear appropriate clothing should be sent home and take a loss of day. This will let them know the rules are to be followed. No playing around. There is much more to address than the uniforms.

[Bern]

Yes Bern we do care, But our opinions do not matter.  The Board of Ed, Teachers, and whoever else will make the decision for us.  But yet they tell us to act like Adults! Why should we when what we think does not count?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ironic, isn't it. You being told to act like adults while they are treating you like children.

What you think counts, provided you act - protest demonstrations and petitions. In the Middle Ages many said we don't count, there is nothing we can do about Catholic church abuses. And the Catholic church had real power. Yet, that is how the protestants got started - they protested. Protesting will get into the news, and when done often enough will cause the Bd of Ed to rethink their policies. It definitely helps to get your parents support.

Very few people vote in school elections. If the 18 year old and over students and the graduates of previous two years simply registered and voted, I guarantee you, you would control the Bd of Ed.

I have spoken with several students who are opposed to the uniforms for different reasons.  The #1 reason being that they feel comfortable in the clothes they wear and some feel that a uniform will take away from who they are.  Unless the teachers and administrators are also forced to wear uniforms, the students shouldn't have to.  The BOE needs to address real issues.

There are real issues. The Bd of Ed should worry about the below average SAT scores. But getting SAT scores up is much harder than posturing about uniforms.

SAT results -

http://php.app.com/sat06web/results.php?co...5&Submit=Search

[Bern]

(Let me start by saying that obviously KHS is NOT a parochial HS but)  I don't think that the students coming out of parochial high schools (who have always worn uniforms) have a problem in their college interviews or in job interviews.  So that is just a stupid argument.  By the way, you didn't mention how the dress code contributed to the downfall in your department, you just told how you and your coworkers acted out in an immature manner against a legitimate corporate decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don’t read too well, do you? I explained this in previous posts.

We didn’t contribute to the downfall. The manager did that on his own with his paperwork bs. Nothing like spending seven hours in meetings every day to rot your brain. Then instead or working normal 8 to 9 hours days we worked 12 to 13 hours a day trying to get some development done. The problem was that development efficiency and clarity was lacking after seven hours of brain rot. So we would work until 9 or 10 pm. He and his cohorts were always gone by 5:30. He did enrich us - ended up billing 60 hours every week. He pissed money away like water, which in large corporations, you can get away with for years. The Managing Director believed hiring additional project managers, development managers and software development life cycle analysts would solve all problems. Which led to additional meetings and another decrease in productivity. He was demoted when senior management realized that even though his budget doubled, productivity went down.

I stated in previous posts that uniforms are a perception issue. Public school uniforms are not considered a sign of quality or being elite. Public schools uniforms usually indicate that the school is failing with serious discipline and self-worth issues.

[Guest Guest]

Yes Bern we do care, But our opinions do not matter.  The Board of Ed, Teachers, and whoever else will make the decision for us.  But yet they tell us to act like Adults! Why should we when what we think does not count?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ugh. Okay, let's forget about uniforms for awhile and get back to grammar lessons and basic rules regarding capitalization. Or do SAT scores not matter anymore (it has been awhile since I applied to college)?

[Guest Guest]

Did you learn nothing from what Matthew did last year? Your opinions do matter, very much, but not if you sit on your hands and do nothing. If you do nothing and remain silent, then your opinions don't matter. Then you're just whining. To make your opinions matter, you must organize with your fellow students and act. Why do think the Framers wrote the right to petition into the Constitution?

If you want to make a difference, you must take action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, another great idea. Let the students start protesting every little rule they don't like. Hell, maybe we should let the students administrate the schools. You're speaking like someone that has absolutely no clue what it takes to run a public school which, thanks to the legislators and lawyers, gets more complex every day.

[Guest Guest]

Your time of the month? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looks like another guy trivializing a female issue. But hey, on Constitutional matters he's a genius.

[Bern]

Looks like another guy trivializing a female issue.  But hey, on Constitutional matters he's a genius.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like you people really care about female issues.

[Guest Meep Meep]

Looks like another guy trivializing a female issue.  But hey, on Constitutional matters he's a genius.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wile E. Coyote - Super Genius

[Guest Paul]

Yeah, another great idea.  Let the students start protesting every little rule they don't like.  Hell, maybe we should let the students administrate the schools.  You're speaking like someone that has absolutely no clue what it takes to run a public school which, thanks to the legislators and lawyers, gets more complex every day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not about protesting every rule they don't like. It's about not being forced what color clothes to wear, which is mainly done in dictatorships. Once the government can dictate in "small things" like that, they can dictate in anything. Think about it: Why do dictatorships force citizens to wear uniforms? Is it because they look pretty? No. Is it because the people need them to do their work? No. It's because the uniform is a visible display of the dictator's complete control. Once you condition people to accept that, you can force them to do a lot of other things, too. This is completely contrary to the spirit of our country.

So this is about students not allowing themselves to be conditioned like that, and in reminding the community that their individuality counts for something. It's about personal responsibility, which can only be learned in the context of choice. It's about the limits of government's power to tell people what to do. On any one day, wearing a uniform may seem like a small matter, but taken in their full context, those are not small matters.

As for running the schools, one of the objections to uniforms is that they are not what education is about. The Board, administrators and teachers should focus on the real issues, not let uniforms become a distraction from them.

[Guest Guest]

Did you learn nothing from what Matthew did last year? Your opinions do matter, very much, but not if you sit on your hands and do nothing. If you do nothing and remain silent, then your opinions don't matter. Then you're just whining. To make your opinions matter, you must organize with your fellow students and act. Why do think the Framers wrote the right to petition into the Constitution?

If you want to make a difference, you must take action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As you just said, you and I mean you, Mr. LaClair, didn't learn anything. Your pleas fall on deft ears and no one really cares about your son and his antics. You are calling out for outcry of support that just does not exist for junior LaClair. And you can that that and stick that up with your Constitution where the sun doesn't shine. Stop tossing the Constitution around as a weapon. It is time to get of your pulpit. Your 30 seconds of fame is over and nothing has changed, nor will it.

[Guest Guest]

It's not about protesting every rule they don't like. It's about not being forced what color clothes to wear, which is mainly done in dictatorships. Once the government can dictate in "small things" like that, they can dictate in anything. Think about it: Why do dictatorships force citizens to wear uniforms? Is it because they look pretty? No. Is it because the people need them to do their work? No. It's because the uniform is a visible display of the dictator's complete control. Once you condition people to accept that, you can force them to do a lot of other things, too. This is completely contrary to the spirit of our country.

So this is about students not allowing themselves to be conditioned like that, and in reminding the community that their individuality counts for something. It's about personal responsibility, which can only be learned in the context of choice. It's about the limits of government's power to tell people what to do. On any one day, wearing a uniform may seem like a small matter, but taken in their full context, those are not small matters.

As for running the schools, one of the objections to uniforms is that they are not what education is about. The Board, administrators and teachers should focus on the real issues, not let uniforms become a distraction from them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The uniforms remove the distraction of trying to enforce a dress code that almost every student and parent try to fight. Now, as you say, it's time to put them on the potty.

[Guest Guest]

One university out of an entire country, and even at that only the business school. And from that you expect reasonable people to draw a conclusion?!

How about some more information:

1. Which university?

2. When did the program become effective?

3. What are the tangible and provable results, if any?

4. How do the changes since adoption of the policy compare with what has gone on at similar universities over the same time period?

How about that for starters? Then we'll look and see where we are, and ask whether the same thing might apply to high school students, and why or why not. Then if there's enough reason to go forward some schools may start requiring uniforms --- ah, but wait a minute, some schools have already skipped those steps and tried the uniform policy. So what are the data? I keep hearing from the proponents that the data support uniforms, but I haven't one specific thing to support that claim.

Where's the beef? (Let's see how old the people posting here are.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your rational of one school out of the entire country is very similar to one troubled student causing a difficult situation for the rest of the school. Does that ring a bell or are you too ignorant to realize that.

And you do comedy too? Wonder how much you charge the Kearny School System for that ?

[Strife767]

Your rational of one school out of the entire country is very similar to one troubled student causing a difficult situation for the rest of the school. Does that ring a bell or are you too ignorant to realize that.

I suggest you learn the meaning of "false analogy" before you call anyone else ignorant (learning how to properly punctuate questions wouldn't hurt either).

[Guest Guest]

Your rational of one school out of the entire country is very similar to one troubled student causing a difficult situation for the rest of the school. Does that ring a bell or are you too ignorant to realize that. 

And you do comedy too?  Wonder how much you charge the Kearny School System for that ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All schools are Constitutionally required to conform to what Matthew forced KHS to do. Your point makes no sense.

[Guest Guest]

As you just said, you and I mean you, Mr. LaClair, didn't learn anything.  Your pleas fall on deft ears and no one really cares about your son and his antics. You are calling out for outcry of support that just does not exist for junior LaClair. And you can that that and stick that up with your Constitution where the sun doesn't shine. Stop tossing the Constitution around as a weapon. It is time to get of your pulpit. Your 30 seconds of fame is over and nothing has changed, nor will it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you really mean is that you don't like what the Constitution says, and don't want it enforced. Many people do care, but they don't say anything. If you were right and no one cared, that would be all the more reason for Matthew to do as he did.

[Guest Guest]

The uniforms remove the distraction of trying to enforce a dress code that almost every student and parent try to fight.  Now, as you say, it's time to put them on the potty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Almost every student and every parent is trying to fight the dress code? Do you have any evidence to support that statement? You don't. You're just trying to make it sound like clothing is a major problem because you think that will support your argument.

[Guest Guest]

Almost every student and every parent is trying to fight the dress code? Do you have any evidence to support that statement? You don't. You're just trying to make it sound like clothing is a major problem because you think that will support your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I do have evidence. I've viewed it with my own eyes in and around the schools for years. I also have relatives and friends that work for the BOE. They have witnessed it and have relayed many stories over the years.

[Guest Guest]

Bravo Matthew!  Your logic should also apply to people of different faiths.  If one student is uncomfortable with the beliefs of the Catholics, Born Again Christians, Mormons, Methodists etc at his public school, he shouldn't try to change them to suit him by using the media and the courts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You overlook the fact that in a town like Kearny, the only view that gets pushed is the majority view, Christianity, which is exactly what happened in the case you're obviously referring to. The whole of prohibiting the government from sponsoring, endorsing or promoting a religion is to keep people of different faiths equal. Matthew's logic does apply to people of different faiths, to keep them all free. Yours does not, and you don't even realize it.

[Guest Guest]

Almost every student and every parent is trying to fight the dress code? Do you have any evidence to support that statement? You don't. You're just trying to make it sound like clothing is a major problem because you think that will support your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I posted on this but I guess some posts aren't getting through.

Anyway, what evidence do you need. I've witnessed the dress code situation with my own eyes for many years. I have relatives and friends working in the school district with first hand knowledge.

[Guest adolf jr]

Judge OKs 'Hitler youth' buttons to protest school uniform policy

9/20/2007,

By DAVID PORTER

The Associated Press

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) — Two students in northern New Jersey can wear buttons featuring a picture of Hitler youth to protest a school uniform policy, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Joseph A. Greenaway Jr. sided with the parents of the students, who had been threatened with suspension by the Bayonne school district last fall for wearing the buttons. However, the judge added in his ruling that the boys will not be allowed to distribute the buttons at school.

Citing a 1969 case in Iowa involving students who wore black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War, Greenaway wrote that "a student may not be punished for merely expressing views unless the school has reason to believe that the speech or expression will 'materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.'"

Greenaway's decision "follows the law as we saw it going in," said Karin R. White Morgen, an attorney representing both boys' families. "We believed that it was the Tinker decision that applied," she added, referring to the Iowa case.

The buttons bear the words "no school uniforms" with a slash through them superimposed on a photo of young boys wearing identical shirts and neckerchiefs. There are no swastikas visible on the buttons, but the parties agreed that they depict members of Hitler youth.

Bayonne instituted mandatory uniforms last September for grades K-8, and fifth-grader Michael DePinto wore the button several times before objections were raised in November, attorneys for the plaintiffs said.

In a letter dated Nov. 16, 2006, Janice Lo Re, principal of Public School 14, notified Laura DePinto that her son "will be subject to suspension" for wearing the button in school.

Parents of the other student, Anthony LaRocco, a seventh-grader at the Woodrow Wilson School, received a similar letter from principal Catherine Quinn.

After the suspension threat, the boys' parents filed a federal lawsuit claiming the district stifled the children's First Amendment free speech rights. They also have challenged the uniform policy with the state Department of Education.

Neither boy has worn the button since the lawsuit was filed, Morgen said.

District lawyers asserted that the image of the Hitler youth was abhorrent because it conveyed intolerance and racial inequality represented by Nazism.

Messages left on Thursday with Bayonne Superintendent of Schools Patricia L. McGeehan and district attorney Robert Merryman were not immediately returned.

[Guest Paul]

Yes, I do have evidence.  I've viewed it with my own eyes in and around the schools for years.  I also have relatives and friends that work for the BOE.  They have witnessed it and have relayed many stories over the years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have viewed every parent and every student fighting the dress code? I don't think so. The mornings I've passed by the school and watched the students coming in, the overwhelming majority looked to be dressed appropriately. In fact, I can't remember any that I've seen who were dressed so inappropriately that I noticed it.

I'll grant you that the twenty or thirty students I saw on each of those mornings represent between one and two percent of the student body, but because I saw them randomly, they're statistically representative of the whole, as any statistician will tell you. So while I can't deny that no students ever push or cross the line, your claim that every student and every parent violate the dress code is a grotesque exaggeration at best.

It wouldn't be hard at all to present evidence of widespread violations of the dress code if you had it. How many students does Al Somma see in a day who are inappropriately dressed in his opinion? Or the teachers: out of the 150-or-so students each of them sees in a day, how many of them are improperly dressed, and what are the main violations? This isn't rocket science. I'm just asking for some facts instead of just your conclusions.

[Guest Guest]

Yes, I do have evidence.  I've viewed it with my own eyes in and around the schools for years.  I also have relatives and friends that work for the BOE.  They have witnessed it and have relayed many stories over the years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then you better tell them to return their surveys. So far it is 4 to 1 in favor of uniforms.

[Guest Guest]

You have viewed every parent and every student fighting the dress code? I don't think so. The mornings I've passed by the school and watched the students coming in, the overwhelming majority looked to be dressed appropriately. In fact, I can't remember any that I've seen who were dressed so inappropriately that I noticed it.

I'll grant you that the twenty or thirty students I saw on each of those mornings represent between one and two percent of the student body, but because I saw them randomly, they're statistically representative of the whole, as any statistician will tell you. So while I can't deny that no students ever push or cross the line, your claim that every student and every parent violate the dress code is a grotesque exaggeration at best.

It wouldn't be hard at all to present evidence of widespread violations of the dress code if you had it. How many students does Al Somma see in a day who are inappropriately dressed in his opinion? Or the teachers: out of the 150-or-so students each of them sees in a day, how many of them are improperly dressed, and what are the main violations? This isn't rocket science. I'm just asking for some facts instead of just your conclusions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes Paul you're right. You passing by the school beats my living on a street were hundreds of kids walk to and from school everyday. And forget the relatives and friends that I know that work in the district. Maybe we should spend a few hundred thousand and hire you're statistician to study the situation. Let's face it, you'll fight anything just for the sake of fighting it and draping in some Constitutional cause. You lack common sense, one of the basic principles that people like Franklin and Jefferson applied to establish this country.

[Strife767]

Judge OKs 'Hitler youth' buttons to protest school uniform policy

9/20/2007,

By DAVID PORTER

The Associated Press   

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) — Two students in northern New Jersey can wear buttons featuring a picture of Hitler youth to protest a school uniform policy, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Joseph A. Greenaway Jr. sided with the parents of the students, who had been threatened with suspension by the Bayonne school district last fall for wearing the buttons. However, the judge added in his ruling that the boys will not be allowed to distribute the buttons at school.

Citing a 1969 case in Iowa involving students who wore black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War, Greenaway wrote that "a student may not be punished for merely expressing views unless the school has reason to believe that the speech or expression will 'materially and substantially disrupt the work and discipline of the school.'"

Greenaway's decision "follows the law as we saw it going in," said Karin R. White Morgen, an attorney representing both boys' families. "We believed that it was the Tinker decision that applied," she added, referring to the Iowa case.

The buttons bear the words "no school uniforms" with a slash through them superimposed on a photo of young boys wearing identical shirts and neckerchiefs. There are no swastikas visible on the buttons, but the parties agreed that they depict members of Hitler youth.

Bayonne instituted mandatory uniforms last September for grades K-8, and fifth-grader Michael DePinto wore the button several times before objections were raised in November, attorneys for the plaintiffs said.

In a letter dated Nov. 16, 2006, Janice Lo Re, principal of Public School 14, notified Laura DePinto that her son "will be subject to suspension" for wearing the button in school.

Parents of the other student, Anthony LaRocco, a seventh-grader at the Woodrow Wilson School, received a similar letter from principal Catherine Quinn.

After the suspension threat, the boys' parents filed a federal lawsuit claiming the district stifled the children's First Amendment free speech rights. They also have challenged the uniform policy with the state Department of Education.

Neither boy has worn the button since the lawsuit was filed, Morgen said.

District lawyers asserted that the image of the Hitler youth was abhorrent because it conveyed intolerance and racial inequality represented by Nazism.

Wow...the buttons are criticizing Nazism if anything, not "conveying" any of the stuff Nazism represents. If that's the best those lawyers have got, they are screwed.

[Strife767]

Yes Paul you're right.  You passing by the school beats my living on a street were hundreds of kids walk to and from school everyday.  And forget the relatives and friends that I know that work in the district.  Maybe we should spend a few hundred thousand and hire you're statistician

"hire you are statistician"

I learned the correct usage of your/you're in the 3rd grade or so. What's your excuse?

You lack common sense,

It isn't common sense to force kids to wear uniforms. Now, if the parents had some common sense, they'd be able to teach their kids to dress appropriately without needing direction from the government.