School Uniforms

[Guest Guest]

What resources are wasted trying to enforce the dress code? I'd like specifics.

On the mornings when I've seen students walking into the high school, they look OK to me. In the five years we've had at least one of our children in Kearny High, I'm not hearing reports of any major problems. Are you sure this "problem" isn't being exaggerated because people have gotten themselves invested in the idea of uniforms?

Hitler youth uniforms looked every bit as innocuous as those being suggested by our Board. The particular color isn't the point. The very act of being forced to wear a particular color of khaki pants and a polo shirt is a curtailment of freedom, and while it may not be the biggest deal in the world, it's big enough when you think about the message it sends over thirteen years of elementary and secondary education.

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Hitler youth uniforms looked innocuous? They have quite the military look if you ask me. I don't think a golf shirt and khaki pants are the same as a hitler youth uniform, nor do they have the same connotation.

Do you really want the teachers and administrators wasting their time deciding if students meet the dress code? Maybe the BOE should set a secret police force to make sure the teachers and students follow the rules as you see them.

[Guest Paul]

Hitler youth uniforms looked innocuous? They have quite the military look if you ask me.  I don't think a golf shirt and khaki pants are the same as a hitler youth uniform, nor do they have the same connotation.

Do you really want the teachers and administrators wasting their time deciding if students meet the dress code? Maybe the BOE should set a secret police force to make sure the teachers and students follow the rules as you see them.

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If there's doubt about it, then they have better things to do. This is a perfect illustration of a non-problem blown up into an issue. It's not enough of a reason to justify the local government dictating to people what color clothes they will wear.

[Guest Fern]

Was it difficult looking up the word? 

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no, my google toolbar makes it so very easy.

i do not understand why scholars such as yourself and the handful of others, take to the web here at KOTW. this is not really a breeding ground for new Mensa members. what can be gained? i've spent too much time following all your ridiculous daily discourses on way too many topics that offer nothing of value to anyone. i'm a gossip whore - you, the attention seeking variety.

time to grow up for us both.

[Guest Guest]

Great, I'd love to hear from you. Bern, from you too. If we get together on this I'm sure we can come up with a reasonable approach to offer the Board of Education so we don't have our kids walking around looking like they're in a country with a dictatorship.

People should remember that when school children start out looking like that, and keep looking like that the whole time they are in school, it's only a matter of time before they become what they look like.

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We know Paul. So do you prefer we crank out a group of gangsta wannabes?

[Guest Guest]

If "khaki is a hard color to enforce" is your concern, it seems as though there isn't much of a problem in the first place. It seems to me that if there's a real problem with how students dress, it should be easily addressed. I don't buy the argument that enforcement is too hard (where are the teachers who have the students sitting right in front of them for nearly an hour!), unless the violations people are worried about are meaningless, like string straps instead of three-inch straps on a tank top. If that's what the school is worried about, my advice would be to move on to other concerns.

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The fact that any shade of khaki is acceptable as well as any navy blue polo shirt, (with the Kearny Schools embem preferred) just proves that the dress code is not military minded in nature. It is just an attempt to make school a learning center, with everyone of the same page, there for the same reason.

The problem is, as I mentioned above, that a teacher cannot enforce any rule without the support of the administration. Many of the current administrators are too close to retirement to fool around with those battles, so the teacher is left looking stupid while the student wins the dress code violation. Also, as you say "violations people are worried about are meaningless, like string straps instead of three-inch straps..." That's subjective, in the eye of the beholder. Some people are more tolerant, others less so. Who is right? There needs to be an objective, enforceable dress code on our students. Believe me, even many of those who were initially opposed to the elementary dress code, have come around and support it now. Within a week or so, the kids pretty much forgot that they didn't want to wear a uniform. Why don't the grown ups act as maturely as the great youngsters we have in the elementary schools.

[Guest Guest]

If "khaki is a hard color to enforce" is your concern, it seems as though there isn't much of a problem in the first place. It seems to me that if there's a real problem with how students dress, it should be easily addressed. I don't buy the argument that enforcement is too hard (where are the teachers who have the students sitting right in front of them for nearly an hour!), unless the violations people are worried about are meaningless, like string straps instead of three-inch straps on a tank top. If that's what the school is worried about, my advice would be to move on to other concerns.

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You're kidding right? You want the teachers to enforce an already subjective dress code. Do you have any idea what takes place in the schools? If you did you'd understand what happens, especially when male teachers are being asked to make judgement calls on whether or not a female student is dressed properly.

The problem with you, Paul, Strife, etc. is that you don't live in reality. We're probably lucky anything is accomplished in the school system with every other parent just waiting to shove a lawsuit up the teacher's, administrator's, and BOE's a**. There's the way things should be, and the way things are. You can't tell the difference.

[Guest Guest]

What resources are wasted trying to enforce the dress code? I'd like specifics.

On the mornings when I've seen students walking into the high school, they look OK to me. In the five years we've had at least one of our children in Kearny High, I'm not hearing reports of any major problems. Are you sure this "problem" isn't being exaggerated because people have gotten themselves invested in the idea of uniforms?

Hitler youth uniforms looked every bit as innocuous as those being suggested by our Board. The particular color isn't the point. The very act of being forced to wear a particular color of khaki pants and a polo shirt is a curtailment of freedom, and while it may not be the biggest deal in the world, it's big enough when you think about the message it sends over thirteen years of elementary and secondary education.

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For someone he constantly tells us how smart he is, you have very little common sense.

[Guest Guest]

For someone he constantly tells us how smart he is, you have very little common sense.

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In China and North Korea everyone wears the same thing too. Disturbing.

[Bern]

The fact that any shade of khaki is acceptable as well as any navy blue polo shirt, (with the Kearny Schools embem preferred)  just proves that the dress code is not military minded in nature.  It is just an attempt to make school a learning center, with everyone of the same page, there for the same reason. 

The problem is, as I mentioned above, that a teacher cannot enforce any rule without the support of the administration.  Many of the current administrators are too close to retirement to fool around with those battles, so the teacher is left looking stupid while the student wins the dress code violation.  Also, as you say "violations people are worried about are meaningless, like string straps instead of three-inch straps..."  That's subjective, in the eye of the beholder.  Some people are more tolerant, others less so.  Who is right?  There needs to be an objective, enforceable dress code on our students.  Believe me, even many of those who were initially opposed to the elementary dress code, have come around and support it now.  Within a week or so, the kids pretty much forgot that they didn't want to wear a uniform.  Why don't the grown ups act as maturely as the great youngsters we have in the elementary schools.

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Or it could when adminstrators don't want to enforce a dress code rule complaint by a teacher, the administrators don't enforce because there is no violation.

And I'm now wondering if there is a dress code issue or is this blown out of proportion? Are some trying to create a solution for a non-existent problem?

Have the teachers stood up, as a group, and said there is an issue?

[Guest Paul]

We know Paul.  So do you prefer we crank out  a group of gangsta wannabes?

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That's a false choice and you know it.

[Guest Paul]

You're kidding right? You want the teachers to enforce an already subjective dress code.  Do you have any idea what takes place in the schools? If you did you'd understand what happens, especially when male teachers are being asked to make judgement calls on whether or not a female student is dressed properly.

The problem with you, Paul, Strife, etc. is that you don't live in reality.  We're probably lucky anything is accomplished in the school system with every other parent just waiting to shove a lawsuit up the teacher's, administrator's, and BOE's a**.  There's the way things should be, and the way things are.  You can't tell the difference.

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I've been practicing law for thirty years, and am pretty sure that I do know the difference. Lawsuits aren't that easy by a long stretch, and they cost the litigant unless there's a Constitutional issue involved and you can get a lawyer to work pro bono, as we did. And even then, I don't see a parent or student going through anywhere near what we have for something like that. In addition, I don't see the ACLU taking on a case for the right to wear a spaghetti strap as opposed to a three-inch strap, and I certainly don't see any private law firm that would be willing to take such a case pro bono, which means that the parents would be paying the lawyers by the hour, and it ain't cheap. Now if your idea of the real world is that parents are going to shell out tens of thousands of dollars over their daughter's right to wear a spaghetti strap, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think so, and school personnel shouldn't waste their time worrying about it. So the claim that the concern of a lawsuit prevents enforcement is not reasonable. What it sounds like they need is (1) to lighten up if this is really about questionable judgment calls and/or (2) to let staff know that they expect enforcement if they're serious about a policy and/or (3) re-write the dress code if it's too subjective.

[Guest Paul]

For someone he constantly tells us how smart he is, you have very little common sense.

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So you claim, but what's the answer to my question? What resources are being wasted enforcing the dress code?

[Guest Guest]

If there's doubt about it, then they have better things to do. This is a perfect illustration of a non-problem blown up into an issue. It's not enough of a reason to justify the local government dictating to people what color clothes they will wear.

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If this does pass, I just wonder when certain boys will go back into their closet and pull out there skirt again instead of the khakis. Or was it a dress? Makes you wonder. This is going to be fun year.

[Guest Guest]

"Love the uniform idea first, because it will save parents lots of money, because there will be no competition about whose wearing what, and what brand etc. Second, everyone than is equal. You are not richer or poorer than the other. What makes you an individual is what is in the inside not what you are wearing. Third, it will definitely keep the girls from exposing themselves as much as they do now."

These are PITIFUL excuses for forcing someone else's kids to put on a uniform to go to school. My kids have good, respectable clothes and they dress decently and properly at all times. I am very annoyed with other parents in this town who think they have the RIGHT and the NERVE to force my kids to put on a uniform because they can't PARENT THEIR KIDS. If they had taught their kids a decent sense of VALUES in the first place, especially the idea that what matters is what's inside us, they wouldn't have to WORRY about their kids trying to OUTDO the other kids. My kids don't worry about that because they were brought up with REASONABLE DISCIPLINE and told NO at appropriate times. No doubt the parents who are clamoring for my kids to wear uniforms today are the same parents who couldn't tell their own kids no, or set reasonable limits when they were three. It irks me no end that some people in this town think it's my and my kids' job to pick up the slack for what they have FAILED TO DO! This is no way to teach them how to be responsible adults.

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I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms. And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either. I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms.

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

[Guest Guest]

I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms.  And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either.    I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms. 

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

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Thank you! I agree. They look very presentable.

This is just another opportunity for Paul to get his son in the spot light again.

[Guest Paul]

I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms.  And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either.    I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms. 

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

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So have your kids wear a uniform. When the government tells you that you must, it's no longer just a question of what looks or feels good. What happened to the sense of individual freedom that conservatives once proudly championed?

[Bern]

I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms.  And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either.    I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms. 

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

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I suggest you and like minded parents get together with the parents association to design a uniform. Then your children and the children of the other parents who feel like you can wear the uniforms on a voluntary basis.

This way, your needs are met and the needs of parents with children who don't want to wear uniforms are also met.

[Guest Guest]

I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms.  And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either.    I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms. 

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

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I completely agree with you. I thought when the grammar schools went to it this past year it would have problems. I give great admiration to the Principals who reinforced it. And now it is so commonplace that it is not even an issue. It sure beat tee shirts that say” This team S**ks” or "Hate Bush or this person or that person". And everyone gets the first shirt for free. People can still have individuality. It has not stifled the creativity of the grammar school students.

[Guest Paul]

I completely agree with you. I thought when the grammar schools went to it this past year it would have problems. I give great admiration to the Principals who reinforced it.  And now it is so commonplace that it is not even an issue.  It sure beat tee shirts that say” This team S**ks” or "Hate Bush or this person or that person". And everyone gets the first shirt for free.  People can still have individuality.  It has not stifled the creativity of the grammar school students.

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I have news for you. If a student wants to write "Bush is the worst president we've ever had" on his t-shirt, there isn't a thing the administration can do to stop him. That's the law, and it's only a matter of time until the kids figure it out. I predict the uniform policy in grades K-8 will last for a few years and then go the way uniforms have always gone, which is out.

Some people in every town like everything nice and neat. It gives them an illusion of security and well-being that doesn't really exist. It's not a sufficient reason to dictate to other people what color clothes they will wear, and it doesn't matter how many people protest or don't protest. It's not something government in a free society ought to do. That's my opinion of course, but it is my opinion.

[Guest Tom]

I am a parent who loves the idea of uniforms.  And let me tell you, my children are very well disciplined, and have a "decent sense of value", and they have no problem wearing uniforms either.    I have spoken to many, many parents in Kearny, and not one of them was AGAINST their kids wearing uniforms. 

Fod goodness sakes, it's a pair of pants and a shirt, and the kids look good and neat.

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As our children grow older, we gradually give them more responsibility for their own actions. What are we telling our young people by requiring them to wear a uniform to our public schools, especially when the reason for it is that some of their classmates have acted out and dressed inappropriately, so therefore they have to dress in a certain way?

We’re telling them:

(1) We’re going to restrict you because your peers can’t control themselves and

(2) We can’t trust you to dress yourselves appropriately.

Those are horrible messages to send to our young people. For better or worse, clothing is a means of expression. People in the most impoverished parts of the world wear colorful clothing. Yes, young people can compensate if they must, but is this really necessary? I don’t think so.

I can appreciate that you think the uniforms look very nice, and no doubt you look at them and see shiny, scrubbed faces in uniforms and isn’t it nice and neat and clean and proper. But you’re just looking at the surface and reacting according to your own craving for order. Have you really changed what’s going on inside those young people or inside the school? Again, I don’t think so.

Paul offered an alternative proposal, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Why isn’t it a preferable alternative to forcing every student to wear exactly the same thing?

[Matthew LaClair]

... Keep in mind the popular, the non-popular, the ugly, the beautiful, the smart one or the one that struggles all are dress the same; there will be no classification of levels or class. Or at least it should not be any.

Thank you for asking!

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Great idea. Instead of telling your kids that there are different kinds of people, lets pretend that everybody is the same! That will solve the problem!

Ok... now I am going to be serious. My intention of this comment is not to be mean, but I truly think that the idea of eliminating the differences in clothing will only send a message to kids that if they are uncomfortable with other people, they can change the rest of the world to suit them. I do not think that is a good message to send. Instead, why don't parents teach their kids that everybody is different? There are students that they are going to meet who they like, and they are going to meet other students who they can't stand. The job of the kid is to learn to accept the differences of their fellow students. At the simplist level, they should learn not to judge a person based solely on their clothing.

[Autonomous]

So have your kids wear a uniform. When the government tells you that you must, it's no longer just a question of what looks or feels good. What happened to the sense of individual freedom that conservatives once proudly championed?

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Conservatives still do. Neocons, on the other hand, are just as bad as any liberal with regards to the government telling people what to do. With their disregard for privacy, I might say even worse.

[Guest Guest]

I've been practicing law for thirty years, and am pretty sure that I do know the difference. Lawsuits aren't that easy by a long stretch, and they cost the litigant unless there's a Constitutional issue involved and you can get a lawyer to work pro bono, as we did. And even then, I don't see a parent or student going through anywhere near what we have for something like that. In addition, I don't see the ACLU taking on a case for the right to wear a spaghetti strap as opposed to a three-inch strap, and I certainly don't see any private law firm that would be willing to take such a case pro bono, which means that the parents would be paying the lawyers by the hour, and it ain't cheap. Now if your idea of the real world is that parents are going to shell out tens of thousands of dollars over their daughter's right to wear a spaghetti strap, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think so, and school personnel shouldn't waste their time worrying about it. So the claim that the concern of a lawsuit prevents enforcement is not reasonable. What it sounds like they need is (1) to lighten up if this is really about questionable judgment calls and/or (2) to let staff know that they expect enforcement if they're serious about a policy and/or (3) re-write the dress code if it's too subjective.

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I think you might be surprised at what parents will fight over. Then again, maybe not.

[Guest Guest]

If there's doubt about it, then they have better things to do. This is a perfect illustration of a non-problem blown up into an issue. It's not enough of a reason to justify the local government dictating to people what color clothes they will wear.

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A non-problem being blown up into an issue. Does that sound familiar?

[Guest Melanie]

I completely agree with you. I thought when the grammar schools went to it this past year it would have problems. I give great admiration to the Principals who reinforced it.  And now it is so commonplace that it is not even an issue.  It sure beat tee shirts that say” This team S**ks” or "Hate Bush or this person or that person". And everyone gets the first shirt for free.  People can still have individuality.  It has not stifled the creativity of the grammar school students.

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Is it really not an issue, or is it just that no one says anything? That's how dictatorships work, too.