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Guest Lost and confused

I’m having trouble understanding the biblical account of creation, and thought I would turn here for help. According to the Bible (KJV), Genesis 1:25-27, God created the animals first, and then both the man and the woman. However, in Genesis 2:7, God creates the man alone, without the woman and before the land animals.

Now here’s where I really get confused. In Genesis 2:18-20, God decides it’s not good for man to be alone, so he creates the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. But Lo and behold, there was not a helpmate for Adam among all the animals. (What a surprise!) So he made the woman (Genesis 2:21).

Now I’m real confused here. Chapter 1 says that the fowl were created on the fifth day before the man and the beasts of the field, who were created on the sixth day. Chapter 2 tells us that the fowl were created after the man. Can anyone explain the contradiction?

The other thing that bothers me about this account is this whole business about Adam and the animals. Maybe someone can help me understand.

1. In what sense were the animals supposed to provide companionship for or be a helpmate to Adam? What exactly did God have in mind with that, and especially what was he expecting Adam to do with that sheep?

2. Why didn’t God already know that the animals would not provide “suitable companionship?” He needed a trial run to know that? Can someone help me here?

3. Reading this, it seems that God created all the animals male and female, but the man in Chapter 2 he made only a male, and only when the man’s needs weren’t met did he create the woman. Questions:

a. Was Adam created with a penis and testicles? If so, what were they for? I’d ask what Adam was supposed to do with them, but other parts of the Bible already make clear what he wasn’t supposed to do with them. Wouldn't he have been better off without them, especially without a woman around, and that thing about not helping yourself? Or did that change when the woman came along? Did God make him a set from the left-over clay? Just what went on here, and why?

b. In the beginning (as they say), was God planning for Adam to reproduce? It doesn’t seem so, because initially it was just going to be Adam and the animals. But then after the woman comes along and everything gets all screwed up with that forbidden fruit thing, God sends the two of them out of Paradise so they can procreate a whole race of screw-ups on their own. Why not just go back to the original plan with Adam and the cows and sheep? After all, if one man was going to be such a great gig in the first place, why not just give Adam a butler's uniform and start over with an improved version? God could have popped by every day or so for a visit to keep him company. Why mess everything up with more women?

4. On the other hand, if the thing is as messed up as it seems, why not just make another earth somewhere else in the galaxy and start over?

Can anyone sort this out for me? I’m real confused.

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I’m having trouble understanding the biblical account of creation, and thought I would turn here for help. According to the Bible (KJV), Genesis 1:25-27, God created the animals first, and then both the man and the woman. However, in Genesis 2:7, God creates the man alone, without the woman and before the land animals.

Now here’s where I really get confused. In Genesis 2:18-20, God decides it’s not good for man to be alone, so he creates the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. But Lo and behold, there was not a helpmate for Adam among all the animals. (What a surprise!) So he made the woman (Genesis 2:21).

Now I’m real confused here. Chapter 1 says that the fowl were created on the fifth day before the man and the beasts of the field, who were created on the sixth day. Chapter 2 tells us that the fowl were created after the man. Can anyone explain the contradiction?

The other thing that bothers me about this account is this whole business about Adam and the animals. Maybe someone can help me understand.

1. In what sense were the animals supposed to provide companionship for or be a helpmate to Adam? What exactly did God have in mind with that, and especially what was he expecting Adam to do with that sheep?

2. Why didn’t God already know that the animals would not provide “suitable companionship?” He needed a trial run to know that? Can someone help me here?

3. Reading this, it seems that God created all the animals male and female, but the man in Chapter 2 he made only a male, and only when the man’s needs weren’t met did he create the woman. Questions:

a. Was Adam created with a penis and testicles? If so, what were they for? I’d ask what Adam was supposed to do with them, but other parts of the Bible already make clear what he wasn’t supposed to do with them. Wouldn't he have been better off without them, especially without a woman around, and that thing about not helping yourself? Or did that change when the woman came along? Did God make him a set from the left-over clay? Just what went on here, and why?

b. In the beginning (as they say), was God planning for Adam to reproduce? It doesn’t seem so, because initially it was just going to be Adam and the animals. But then after the woman comes along and everything gets all screwed up with that forbidden fruit thing, God sends the two of them out of Paradise so they can procreate a whole race of screw-ups on their own. Why not just go back to the original plan with Adam and the cows and sheep? After all, if one man was going to be such a great gig in the first place, why not just give Adam a butler's uniform and start over with an improved version? God could have popped by every day or so for a visit to keep him company. Why mess everything up with more women?

4. On the other hand, if the thing is as messed up as it seems, why not just make another earth somewhere else in the galaxy and start over?

Can anyone sort this out for me? I’m real confused.

Matthew, Matthew, Matthew. Give it up already! Nobody wants to play your stupid game anymore! (and daddy wonders why you get "abused" at school)

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
I’m having trouble understanding the biblical account of creation, and thought I would turn here for help. According to the Bible (KJV), Genesis 1:25-27, God created the animals first, and then both the man and the woman. However, in Genesis 2:7, God creates the man alone, without the woman and before the land animals.

Now here’s where I really get confused. In Genesis 2:18-20, God decides it’s not good for man to be alone, so he creates the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. But Lo and behold, there was not a helpmate for Adam among all the animals. (What a surprise!) So he made the woman (Genesis 2:21).

Now I’m real confused here. Chapter 1 says that the fowl were created on the fifth day before the man and the beasts of the field, who were created on the sixth day. Chapter 2 tells us that the fowl were created after the man. Can anyone explain the contradiction?

The other thing that bothers me about this account is this whole business about Adam and the animals. Maybe someone can help me understand.

1. In what sense were the animals supposed to provide companionship for or be a helpmate to Adam? What exactly did God have in mind with that, and especially what was he expecting Adam to do with that sheep?

2. Why didn’t God already know that the animals would not provide “suitable companionship?” He needed a trial run to know that? Can someone help me here?

3. Reading this, it seems that God created all the animals male and female, but the man in Chapter 2 he made only a male, and only when the man’s needs weren’t met did he create the woman. Questions:

a. Was Adam created with a penis and testicles? If so, what were they for? I’d ask what Adam was supposed to do with them, but other parts of the Bible already make clear what he wasn’t supposed to do with them. Wouldn't he have been better off without them, especially without a woman around, and that thing about not helping yourself? Or did that change when the woman came along? Did God make him a set from the left-over clay? Just what went on here, and why?

b. In the beginning (as they say), was God planning for Adam to reproduce? It doesn’t seem so, because initially it was just going to be Adam and the animals. But then after the woman comes along and everything gets all screwed up with that forbidden fruit thing, God sends the two of them out of Paradise so they can procreate a whole race of screw-ups on their own. Why not just go back to the original plan with Adam and the cows and sheep? After all, if one man was going to be such a great gig in the first place, why not just give Adam a butler's uniform and start over with an improved version? God could have popped by every day or so for a visit to keep him company. Why mess everything up with more women?

4. On the other hand, if the thing is as messed up as it seems, why not just make another earth somewhere else in the galaxy and start over?

Can anyone sort this out for me? I’m real confused.

Your deception isn't cute at all. You portrayed yourself as someone who was legitamelely seeking to understand Scripture, but as I read your post, it became obvious that you were just taking an opportunity to ridicule the biblical account of creation. So how is it that you got so fixated on sheep? Strife, is that you?

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral,

those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --- there place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Revelation 21:8

I think it would be safe to concude that this includes those with sexual fixations on sheep. There is good news however! These sins can be washed away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

By the way, I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3. The created order is clear:

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order. Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation. She is special. She is fashioned out of the side of man. There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion. Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC. It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms. Amazing! Where did Moses get this knowledge!

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Matthew, Matthew, Matthew. Give it up already! Nobody wants to play your stupid game anymore! (and daddy wonders why you get "abused" at school)

Ye Gods! Just as HST was much too clever for SFPD, The original poster above was able to show via a third party admission that the LaClair boy is a victim of abuse at school.

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Your deception isn't cute at all.  You portrayed yourself as someone who was legitamelely seeking to understand Scripture, but as I read your post, it became obvious that you were just taking an opportunity to ridicule the biblical account of creation. So how is it that you got so fixated on sheep?  Strife, is that you?

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral,

those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --- there place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death."  Revelation 21:8

I think it would be safe to concude that this includes those with sexual fixations on sheep.  There is good news however!  These sins can be washed away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  I John 1:9

By the way, I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3.  The created order is clear:

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl  Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order.  Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation.  She is special.  She is fashioned out of the side of man.  There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion.  Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

You're completely ignoring the two main points, which are that Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1, and that the story told in Genesis 2 invites ridicule. Don't blame us. We didn't write it.

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By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

Light is necessary to produce energy?

Is that the biblical view?

It's certainly not the scientific view.

Ever been beyond the cover of a physics text?

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Your deception isn't cute at all.  You portrayed yourself as someone who was legitamelely seeking to understand Scripture, but as I read your post, it became obvious that you were just taking an opportunity to ridicule the biblical account of creation. So how is it that you got so fixated on sheep?  Strife, is that you?

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral,

those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --- there place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death."  Revelation 21:8

I think it would be safe to concude that this includes those with sexual fixations on sheep.  There is good news however!  These sins can be washed away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  I John 1:9

By the way, I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3.  The created order is clear:

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl  Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order.  Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation.  She is special.  She is fashioned out of the side of man.  There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion.  Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

Excuse me, but the so-called created order is contradictory between the first two chapters. I suggest you read chapter 2, which you omit from your list of 1-7 above. The contradiction is direct and undeniable.

You may not like the way the questions are asked, but they are excellent questions and you're not answering any of them. I don't find it surprising that someone who lived 3,500 years ago realized that light was necessary to life, and that animals appear to be more advanced forms of life than plants.

I really didn't know what to make of you when you started posting. I seem to recall giving you credit for at least asking questions. But the more you write, the more obvious it is that your mind is completely closed to anything that questions what you already believe. You can't learn that way, and I hope you won't think me rude for pointing out that none of us knows everything. What would be so terrible about opening your mind to really thinking about what you're being asked? Honestly, that's a discussion I'd like to have with you.

The other thing I'll point out to you is that for those of us who do not accept the Bible as an extrinsic authority for anything, biblical quotations are of no use at all. If your purpose is to change our minds, that is not how to do it.

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Your deception isn't cute at all.  You portrayed yourself as someone who was legitamelely seeking to understand Scripture, but as I read your post, it became obvious that you were just taking an opportunity to ridicule the biblical account of creation. So how is it that you got so fixated on sheep?  Strife, is that you?

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral,

those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --- there place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death."  Revelation 21:8

I think it would be safe to concude that this includes those with sexual fixations on sheep.  There is good news however!  These sins can be washed away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  I John 1:9

By the way, I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3.  The created order is clear:

    Any post (like the previous one) that mentions "penis" and "sheep" together, had to be written by Strifey.

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl  Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order.  Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation.  She is special.  She is fashioned out of the side of man.  There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion.  Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

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Excuse me, but the so-called created order is contradictory between the first two chapters. I suggest you read chapter 2, which you omit from your list of 1-7 above. The contradiction is direct and undeniable.

And if you don't believe it, Paul will stamp his little foot until you do.

http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html

In short, Genesis 2 probably wasn't intended as a chronological presentation, and the items listed are qualitatively different from those in Genesis 1.

Despite differing descriptions in the Hebrew, the hostile skeptic simply assumes that parallel descriptions must be talking about the same thing. The skeptic overlooks the fact that Gen. 1 concerns "the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created" while chapter 2 (starting in the midst of verse 4) gives an account of the preparation of the Garden of Eden after a quick recap of the former account.

It's funny to see skeptics claim that the accounts are undeniably contradictory. It's like they have no clue what a contradiction is.

The other thing I'll point out to you is that for those of us who do not accept the Bible as an extrinsic authority for anything, biblical quotations are of no use at all. If your purpose is to change our minds, that is not how to do it.

Well, don't judge him so fast. Who's to say that the particular sense impressions he causes in your brain through the use of scripture quotations will not result in a chemical change further resulting the illusion that Jesus appears at your bedside with a resulting conversion?

That's probably just my "narrow thinking" in action, though. ;)

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Light is necessary to produce energy?

Is that the biblical view?

It's certainly not the scientific view.

Ever been beyond the cover of a physics text?

My point was only that plants (lower life forms) get their energy from the sun. When God created the sun, it provided light on a continuing basis to sustain plants which get energy from the sun. I think you understood what I meant. Are you arguing that the sun is not necessary to sustain life?

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Excuse me, but the so-called created order is contradictory between the first two chapters. I suggest you read chapter 2, which you omit from your list of 1-7 above. The contradiction is direct and undeniable.

You may not like the way the questions are asked, but they are excellent questions and you're not answering any of them. I don't find it surprising that someone who lived 3,500 years ago realized that light was necessary to life, and that animals appear to be more advanced forms of life than plants.

I really didn't know what to make of you when you started posting. I seem to recall giving you credit for at least asking questions. But the more you write, the more obvious it is that your mind is completely closed to anything that questions what you already believe. You can't learn that way, and I hope you won't think me rude for pointing out that none of us knows everything. What would be so terrible about opening your mind to really thinking about what you're being asked? Honestly, that's a discussion I'd like to have with you.

The other thing I'll point out to you is that for those of us who do not accept the Bible as an extrinsic authority for anything, biblical quotations are of no use at all. If your purpose is to change our minds, that is not how to do it.

About that contradiction between chapter's 2 and 1 of Genesis. I really don't see it, perhaps if you quote specific verses, I could respond. Chapter two focuses on the 6th day of creation. It highlights the creation of man and woman whereas chapter one is a list from start to finish of what God created. By the way Paul, I had thought that maybe Strife posted that disrespectful criticism of the Scriptures couched in deception and imlying bestiality. I noticed however, that a guest regognized it as Mathew's work. I don't know if that is the case, but if it is, I'm guessing you influenced it. You can correct me if I am wrong, I will apologize and I will accept your word of honor on it.

Quote specific verses you have questions about in Genesis chapter one through three and I will be happy to comment. Do me a favor and limit it to one or two at a time so that responding doesn't take forever from my end.

Concerning my words Paul, they are but the words of a man, however:

"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

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Excuse me, but the so-called created order is contradictory between the first two chapters. I suggest you read chapter 2, which you omit from your list of 1-7 above. The contradiction is direct and undeniable.

You may not like the way the questions are asked, but they are excellent questions and you're not answering any of them. I don't find it surprising that someone who lived 3,500 years ago realized that light was necessary to life, and that animals appear to be more advanced forms of life than plants.

I really didn't know what to make of you when you started posting. I seem to recall giving you credit for at least asking questions. But the more you write, the more obvious it is that your mind is completely closed to anything that questions what you already believe. You can't learn that way, and I hope you won't think me rude for pointing out that none of us knows everything. What would be so terrible about opening your mind to really thinking about what you're being asked? Honestly, that's a discussion I'd like to have with you.

The other thing I'll point out to you is that for those of us who do not accept the Bible as an extrinsic authority for anything, biblical quotations are of no use at all. If your purpose is to change our minds, that is not how to do it.

Paul you idiot. It's God. He doesn't have to answer to you on the order things are done in.

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You're completely ignoring the two main points, which are that Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1, and that the story told in Genesis 2 invites ridicule. Don't blame us. We didn't write it.

Will any of the religious nut jobs who have been posting at KOTW have the honesty and integrity to admit the obvious? There is an inescapable contradiction in the first two chapters of the first book in the Bible.

This wouldn't be such a big deal if biblical fundamentalist zealots didn't claim that the Bible is the inerrant word of almight God. But they do claim it.

It still wouldn't be this big a deal if they kept their beliefs to themselves, but they don't. They have worked their way into every branch of government, and one of their own is in the White House. Under his misrule, the last two appointments to the U.S. Supreme Court, and a few before that, were selected because they were religious nut jobs. We are at the precipice of having more than 200 years of stability under a written Constitution undone.

So, to all the Bible-thumping zealots who may read this: You set the stakes very high for yourselves. Now live up to them, and if you can't, then have the decency to admit that you might not know as much as you claim to know.

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Your deception isn't cute at all.  You portrayed yourself as someone who was legitamelely seeking to understand Scripture, but as I read your post, it became obvious that you were just taking an opportunity to ridicule the biblical account of creation. So how is it that you got so fixated on sheep?  Strife, is that you?

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral,

those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars --- there place is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death."  Revelation 21:8

I think it would be safe to concude that this includes those with sexual fixations on sheep.  There is good news however!  These sins can be washed away:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  I John 1:9

By the way, I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3.  The created order is clear:

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl  Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order.  Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation.  She is special.  She is fashioned out of the side of man.  There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion.  Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

First you get upset, then you ignore all the parts of your own Bible that aren't convenient to you, then you draw conclusions that don't follow. You may be impressed by that way of doing things, but most of us are not.

You're being asked to be honest, first with yourself then with us. So far you're not doing that.

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By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy), plants (which harness the sun's energy for use) and then higher life forms.  Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

In other words, these "higher life forms" weren't created at all, but evolved through natural processes.

When you make up your mind what you wish to believe, let us know.

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Matthew, Matthew, Matthew. Give it up already! Nobody wants to play your stupid game anymore! (and daddy wonders why you get "abused" at school)

1. Unlike you, Matthew is registered on this forum.

2. Ad hominem--what's the matter? Got no answer to the original poster's questions?

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I suggest a second reading of Genesis chapters 1-3.  The created order is clear:

1-light Gen. 1:3

2-sky (atmosphere) Gen. 1:6

3-dry land and plants Gen. 1:9

4-sun, moon and stars Gen. 1:14

5-fish and fowl  Gen. 1:20

6-man and land creatures Gen. 1:24

I wonder what day you'd say penguins were created on. "Fowl" and "land creatures" are not mutually exclusive categories, you know.

7-God rested Gen. 2:2

Man is the apex of the created order.  Chapter two highlights his need of a suitable counterpart and details her creation.  She is special.  She is fashioned out of the side of man.  There is great symbolism here, she is not taken from his heal, she is his companion.  Never was it suggested that man might have sex with animals.

If Adam was meant to have sex with his companion (which turned out to be the woman), and before creating the woman God offered every species of animal to him as a companion, then what's the alternative? Only that God was merely screwing (pun not intended) with Adam by offering him all these creatures when he knew Adam wouldn't select any of them. So, you've apparently got two choices: either the god you worship is mischievious, or he doesn't mind bestiality, lol. :P

Also, if God knew Adam would need a woman for a mate, why didn't he create them together as a 'unit' like he supposedly did for all the other species? Either he was not omniscient, and actually rather dumb to think that this one species wouldn't need a mate when all the others did, or this supposedly omniscient God delayed things the way he did was because he wanted to parade all the animals in front of Adam. Perhaps God is depicted as being more fixated on the idea than you'd like? :P

By the way, the above account of creation is quite sophisticated for a document written around 1440 BC.  It starts with light (necessary to produce energy),

Wow, that's really sophisticated, lol. Even cavemen probably figured out that things relied on (sun)light to survive, and could have hypothesized that 'light' was at the beginning.

Nevertheless, light is not necessary to produce energy. Where in the world did you get that from?

plants (which harness the sun's energy for use)

Never mind that the sun wasn't created for two more days, LOL. "Amazing!"

Also, since there was no sun yet, how do you explain that there were "mornings" and "evenings" on those first three days?

and then higher life forms.

You're reminding me of Genesis in your inconsistency ("higher life forms" encompasses a whole lot more than you're probably aware of). In Genesis, God spends a whole day creating light (again, before any stars existed) and separating light from darkness--and then, seemingly like an afterthought, "He made the stars also." TRILLIONS (it's obvious reading Genesis that its writers had no idea just how many stars there are) of stars popped into existence in an instant, where on the other hand "fish and fowl" (as you described) take an entire day. Explanation, please.

Amazing!  Where did Moses get this knowledge!

Haha, "Moses." That's a good one.

"Although the text of Genesis makes no claim about authorship, the traditional Jewish, and later Christian, belief was that the five books of the Torah were dictated by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. For a number of reasons this is no longer accepted by the majority of modern biblical scholars, and contemporary academic debate centres instead on the proposal known as the documentary hypothesis. This postulates that Genesis, together with the other four books, is a composite work assembled from various sources." --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_genesis#Composition_and_date

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1. Unlike you, Matthew is registered on this forum.

2. Ad hominem--what's the matter? Got no answer to the original poster's questions?

1. This isn't the first time he posted under a "guest" name.

2. I don't believe everything written in the bible (although there are some good lifes lessons to be learned from it), I think he's a sarcastic little twit who's trying to provoke anyone who will fall for his stupid game (much like he did to P).

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Guest Paul
About that contradiction between chapter's 2 and 1 of Genesis.  I really don't see it, perhaps if you quote specific verses, I could respond.  Chapter two focuses on the 6th day of creation.  It highlights the creation of man and woman whereas chapter one is a list from start to finish of what God created.  By the way Paul, I had thought that maybe Strife posted that disrespectful criticism of the Scriptures couched in deception and imlying bestiality.  I noticed however, that a guest regognized it as Mathew's work.  I don't know if that is the case, but if it is, I'm guessing you influenced it. You can correct me if I am wrong, I will apologize and I will accept your word of honor on it.

Quote specific verses you have questions about in Genesis chapter one through three and I will be happy to comment. Do me a favor and limit it to one or two at a time so that responding doesn't take forever from my end.

Genesis 1 says that fowl were created on the fifth day, and the land animals and both man and woman on the sixth:

20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

. . .

31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2 says that fowl were created after the man, but before the woman. The text is clear that the purpose was to find “an help meet” for Adam:

18: And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22: And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

No doubt you would have found this quickly enough if you thought it supported your position, but there is no denying, by any reasonable person, that the order of creation of the fowl is in contradiction between the two texts. Chapter 2 can't focus only on the sixth day of creation because the fowl are said in chapter 1 to have been created on the fifth day, and man is said to be alone (Gen 2:18), which we "know" from Gen 1:26-31 couldn't have happened until day six; so your interpretation is incorrect and the contradiction is inescapable --- that is, unless you insist on sticking your fingers in your eyes and ears and making a lot of noise. This is a standard dodge used to avoid the contradiction, but there is no wiggle room.

Why are we even discussing this? If you heard this story in any other context, you would recognize it immediately as a fantasy.

Regarding the purpose of the animals, what do you think the fair reading is? Forget the sex, how bright do you have to be to know in advance that the animals wouldn’t provide suitable companionship for the man? If you really believe in this god, as you claim, why isn’t this blasphemy? The text portrays him as stupid.

This story looks like a great many other ancient myths from primitive peoples. Why is it so hard for you to accept that that is what this is?

Source: http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvGene.html

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Guest Guest
If your purpose is to change our minds, that is not how to do it.

Practice what you "preach" Paul.

I suppose that the way to change peoples minds is to do it with the "stylish wit" of the original poster of this topic!

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My point was only that plants (lower life forms) get their energy from the sun.  When God created the sun, it provided light on a continuing basis to sustain plants which get energy from the sun.  I think you understood what I meant. Are you arguing that the sun is not necessary to sustain life?

I believe in science and what you said was simply an inaccurate statement.

You said: "It starts with light (necessary to produce energy),"

The sun does not produce energy, in converts one form of energy to heat and light, light is not necessarily a component of other energy conversions.

While the sun's heat is necessary to sustain most if not all forms of life on earth its light is not, many life forms exist in caves and in the sea where light never reaches.

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I’m having trouble understanding the biblical account of creation, and thought I would turn here for help. According to the Bible (KJV), Genesis 1:25-27, God created the animals first, and then both the man and the woman. However, in Genesis 2:7, God creates the man alone, without the woman and before the land animals.

Now here’s where I really get confused. In Genesis 2:18-20, God decides it’s not good for man to be alone, so he creates the beasts of the field and the fowl of the air. But Lo and behold, there was not a helpmate for Adam among all the animals. (What a surprise!) So he made the woman (Genesis 2:21).

Now I’m real confused here. Chapter 1 says that the fowl were created on the fifth day before the man and the beasts of the field, who were created on the sixth day. Chapter 2 tells us that the fowl were created after the man. Can anyone explain the contradiction?

The other thing that bothers me about this account is this whole business about Adam and the animals. Maybe someone can help me understand.

1. In what sense were the animals supposed to provide companionship for or be a helpmate to Adam? What exactly did God have in mind with that, and especially what was he expecting Adam to do with that sheep?

2. Why didn’t God already know that the animals would not provide “suitable companionship?” He needed a trial run to know that? Can someone help me here?

3. Reading this, it seems that God created all the animals male and female, but the man in Chapter 2 he made only a male, and only when the man’s needs weren’t met did he create the woman. Questions:

a. Was Adam created with a penis and testicles? If so, what were they for? I’d ask what Adam was supposed to do with them, but other parts of the Bible already make clear what he wasn’t supposed to do with them. Wouldn't he have been better off without them, especially without a woman around, and that thing about not helping yourself? Or did that change when the woman came along? Did God make him a set from the left-over clay? Just what went on here, and why?

b. In the beginning (as they say), was God planning for Adam to reproduce? It doesn’t seem so, because initially it was just going to be Adam and the animals. But then after the woman comes along and everything gets all screwed up with that forbidden fruit thing, God sends the two of them out of Paradise so they can procreate a whole race of screw-ups on their own. Why not just go back to the original plan with Adam and the cows and sheep? After all, if one man was going to be such a great gig in the first place, why not just give Adam a butler's uniform and start over with an improved version? God could have popped by every day or so for a visit to keep him company. Why mess everything up with more women?

4. On the other hand, if the thing is as messed up as it seems, why not just make another earth somewhere else in the galaxy and start over?

Can anyone sort this out for me? I’m real confused.

This has all the ear marks of a glorified monkey in a dress stirring up trouble again. God will judge you and you should really be ashamed of yourself for mocking the scriptures.

But I can see why you are confused, after all you were a MONKEY at one time right!

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