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Guest Keith- Marshall,Mo

Wating for 2smart to answer.

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What Keith doesn't know is that many people were probably trying hard to get into that ark when it started to rain, but it was too late. God closed the door and no man could open it. Now it is time to turn to God, not when he closes the door. Wake up Keith!

What Guest doesn't know is that there are a ton of problems with the suggestion that the "Noah's Ark story" having actually happened:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Wake up--you're living in a fantasy world.

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Guest Autonomous
If a "big bang" created the universe, just what was "IT"  that exploded ??  To create the universe, "IT" must have been a huge monolith of planatary material. And where did that come from ??  More magic  ??  This "big bang" theory is nothing more than the atheist explanation for the universe, and a poor one at that.

Right-"God went 'pook' and everything came into being" is SO much better.

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
Well, 2smart, Red Letter and "guest". I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If heaven is full of people like you...then what's the payoff?

There are two kinds of sinners Keith, those saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ and those that aren't. I'm of the former variety, I don't claim to be perfect, but I rejoice in the fact that I am jsustified before God as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross on my behalf.

The payoff is enjoying peace in the presence of God for all eternity.

Its my prayer that I'll see you there Keith, but it sounds like you need to cross over from death to life:

" I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Jesus as recorded in John 5:24

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Guest Red-Letter Edition

It's not even obvious Jesus existed--

Strife, even Paul would not argue this. At least I don't think he would. His issue would be whether Jesus is God or not, not whether or not he existed. Serious people don't doubt his existence, at least as a man. Has it ever occured to you that we actually mark time by his life?

About the universe and evolution, I think you understand the point 2 smart was making, over time, the universe evolved into what it is from that original "big bang."

The concept is called gradualism.

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
What Guest doesn't know is that there are a ton of problems with the suggestion that the "Noah's Ark story" having actually happened:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Wake up--you're living in a fantasy world.

Again, intellectual laziness on the part of Strife. Rather than make a case, he suggests reading an entire book or gives a web address.

By the way Strife, still waiting for you to select a "specific" bible prophecy which has been proven to be false with your explanation as to why. No books or web addresses please.

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
then I won't call you retarded for even thinking of writing the above.

This is one of those profound quotes like, "baby, baby, stick your head in gravy" or "I know you are but what am I." LOL

Just because you reply line by line doesn't make you intellectual like Bryan. Allow me to use a childish phrase myself, "copycat." :)

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Bravo 2smart!  The fact is the Darwinists can't, try as they will.  Apart from the Bible, their theory even contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.  When applied to the universe, it means that the universe is running down (loosing heat energy) and will one day reach a uniform temperature.  This is not evolution, it is the opposite.  The universe is actually devolving not evolving.  Is devolving a word?  :)

So, are you saying that evolution causes a reduction in the total amount of heat in the universe? That's what would be required for evolution to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It rather looks to me like all these plants and animals breeding and competing and living their lives produce quite a lot of heat. Whether they came about by creation or evolution doesn't change that.

Ah, but you're talking about creating "order", not reducing heat, aren't you? But that doesn't work either. If the 2nd law of thermodynamics prevented any increase in order, it would be physically impossible to organize a closet, or for a snowflake to form.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics precludes a net loss of entropy in a thermally isolated system. It does not preclude a localized reduction of entropy in a non-isolated system. That's why it doesn't conflict with crystallization, turning sawdust into particle board, the construction and operation of your refrigerator, or evolution. None of those processes yield a net loss of entropy. They only move it around a bit, and create some more in the process. It doesn't matter that things like particle board and refrigerators are products of intelligent creators (us), because there are plenty of examples of non-intelligent processes that create order or reduce temperature, and because a law of physics that could be violated at will would not be a law of physics at all.

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There are two kinds of sinners Keith, those saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ and those that aren't.  I'm of the former variety, I don't claim to be perfect, but I rejoice in the fact that I am jsustified before God as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross on my behalf.

The payoff is enjoying peace in the presence of God for all eternity.

Its my prayer that I'll see you there Keith, but it sounds like you need to cross over from death to life:

" I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."  Jesus as recorded in John 5:24

This is judgmental in exactly the way that Jesus is said to have forbidden. I don't see peace in this response.

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Guest Paul
then I won't call you retarded for even thinking of writing the above.

This is one of those profound quotes like, "baby, baby, stick your head in gravy" or "I know you are but what am I." LOL

Just because you reply line by line doesn't make you intellectual like Bryan. Allow me to use a childish phrase myself, "copycat." :)

I get the impression that you’re frustrated. I do not think that citing a source to read necessarily implies laziness. Strife’s posts are generally very well thought-out, and if he’s citing you to something, my experience is that it’s usually worth reading.

What does strike me as more arguably lazy is the unwillingness to address the many logical problems with your theology. I have seen that from every single person on your side of this discussion. However, I don’t think you’re doing this because you’re really lazy. I think you’re blocking a Truth you don’t want to see. Strife is right on the money. Eternal torment is so far beyond any sense of proportion as to make it obvious that the story just isn't true.

Look, guys, you believe in a story that goes back thousands of years and has both informed and misinformed many cultures. Some of us are saying that story is obviously not true. The conception of God in that story is obviously the product of a very dim view of people and a very limited understanding of values, which are the foundation for the good. That point doesn’t even touch on the question whether there is a god at all. That is a question of fact, which none of us is qualified to answer. I’m making a different point, which is that even if there is a god, that god is not what you’re describing. How do I know? Because as imperfect as my concepts of Love, justice and the good are, I do know something about them: enough to know that what you’re describing is not Love, justice or the good. This is a spiritual understanding. You have to open yourself to it to “get it.” If you don’t, I can’t explain it to you. I can make the arguments, but if you resist them, you’ll block them all out, which is exactly what has been happening.

I can invite you to pursue another path. You are free to give that path a chance and see where it leads, or not. I can tell you based on my experience that it is a beautiful path. It has liberated me and lifted me up to a higher place than where I was when I tried practicing your theology. In the end, each of us will make our own choices, and what will be will be.

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There are two kinds of sinners Keith, those saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ and those that aren't.  I'm of the former variety, I don't claim to be perfect, but I rejoice in the fact that I am jsustified before God as a result of accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross on my behalf.

The payoff is enjoying peace in the presence of God for all eternity.

Its my prayer that I'll see you there Keith, but it sounds like you need to cross over from death to life:

" I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."  Jesus as recorded in John 5:24

Maybe I should be more clear. I don't have a problem with someone having religion. Go for it. I don't have a problem with Christianity....I just have a problem with Christians.

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You've really got to learn how to construct a quote tag.

It's not even obvious Jesus existed--

Strife, even Paul would not argue this. At least I don't think he would.

Non-sequitur. There is no contemporary evidence of Jesus's existence; everything is hearsay from several decades after his alleged death. That wouldn't be enough evidence to convict someone of the least crime in the present day. At best, if he existed, he was a normal guy who lived a normal life--at least, that would explain the lack of any and all writings about his life, during his life.

His issue would be whether Jesus is God or not, not whether or not he existed.

And if he existed, that would also be my issue.

Serious people don't doubt his existence, at least as a man.

Fallacious appeal to authority.

Has it ever occured to you that we actually mark time by his life?

Has it ever occurred to you that we don't?

"The Anno Domini system was developed by a monk named Dionysius Exiguus (born in Scythia Minor) in Rome in 525 ((why didn't people mark time by this INCREDIBLE person Jesus's life until over four CENTURIES after his alleged life, then? Can you explain that?)), as an outcome of his work on calculating the date of Easter. In his Easter table Dionysius equates the year AD 532 with the regnal year 284 of Emperor Diocletian; in his cover letter he equates the year AD 525 with the consulate of Probus Junior. "However, nowhere in his exposition of his table does Dionysius relate his epoch to any other dating system, whether consulate, Olympiad, year of the world, or regnal year of Augustus; much less does he explain or justify the underlying date" (emphasis added) --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini#History_of_Anno_Domini

"According to the Gospel of Matthew (2:1,16) Herod the Great was alive when Jesus was born, and ordered the Massacre of the Innocents in response to his birth. Blackburn & Holford-Strevens fix Herod's death shortly before Passover in 4 BC (2003, 770), and say that those who accept the story of the Massacre of the Innocents sometimes associate the star that led the Biblical Magi with the planetary conjunction of 15 September 7 BC or Halley's comet of 12 BC; even historians who do not accept the Massacre accept birth under Herod as a tradition older than the written gospels (p. 776).

The Gospel of Luke (1:5) states that John the Baptist was at least conceived, if not born, under Herod, and that Christ was conceived while John's mother was in the sixth month of her pregnancy (1:26). Luke's Gospel also states that Christ was born during the reign of Augustus and while Cyrenius (or Quirinius) was the governor of Syria (2:1-2), . Blackburn and Holford-Strevens (2003, 770) indicate Cyrenius/Quirinius' governorship of Syria began in AD 6, which is incompatible with conception in 4 BC, and say that "St. Luke raises greater difficulty....Most critics therefore discard Luke" (p. 776). Some scholars rely on John's Gospel to place Christ's birth in c.18 BC (Blackburn and Holford-Strevens 2003, 776)." (emphasis added) --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini#History_of_Anno_Domini

The year was selected arbitrarily, obviously--similarly with the date of Christmas and Easter, two holidays Christians arbitrarily put on the same day as Pagan holidays in order to make it easier to convert them in the early days of Chrstianity.

About the universe and evolution, I think you understand the point 2 smart was making,  over time, the universe evolved into what it is from that original "big bang."

The concept is called gradualism.

So that is why his 'challenge' was aimed specifically at "Darwiniacs?" Physicists and astronomers do nothing related to Darwin's work, which was biology. Give me a break--you're only making yourself look even more foolish by defending that buffoon.

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Again, intellectual laziness on the part of Strife.  Rather than make a case, he suggests reading an entire book or gives a web address.

The URL makes several cases. Why do you think less of me for referring you to them instead of paraphrasing the whole thing? Just because all you can do is quote the Bible doesn't mean you're justified in complaining about me citing sources. :)

By the way Strife, still waiting for you to select a "specific" bible prophecy which has been proven to be false with your explanation as to why.  No books or web addresses please.

Still waiting for you or anyone to select a specific Bible prophecy which has been proven to be true.

Stop shifting the burden of proof--the initial assertion of fulfilled biblical prophecies is what needs to be proven.

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So, are you saying that evolution causes a reduction in the total amount of heat in the universe? That's what would be required for evolution to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It rather looks to me like all these plants and animals breeding and competing and living their lives produce quite a lot of heat. Whether they came about by creation or evolution doesn't change that.

Ah, but you're talking about creating "order", not reducing heat, aren't you? But that doesn't work either. If the 2nd law of thermodynamics prevented any increase in order, it would be physically impossible to organize a closet, or for a snowflake to form.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics precludes a net loss of entropy in a thermally isolated system. It does not preclude a localized reduction of entropy in a non-isolated system. That's why it doesn't conflict with crystallization, turning sawdust into particle board, the construction and operation of your refrigerator, or evolution. None of those processes yield a net loss of entropy. They only move it around a bit, and create some more in the process. It doesn't matter that things like particle board and refrigerators are products of intelligent creators (us), because there are plenty of examples of non-intelligent processes that create order or reduce temperature, and because a law of physics that could be violated at will would not be a law of physics at all.

Plants and animals get their energy from an outside energy source, it doesn't come from within themselves. Their energy comes from the sun. What is the outside source of energy for the univese Keith? If their is no outside source, it is losing energy and it is running down. It will one day reach uniform temperature left to itself. My point was that those that believe in the "big bang" or apply gradualism to the univese run into problems with natural laws.

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then I won't call you retarded for even thinking of writing the above.

This is one of those profound quotes like, "baby, baby, stick your head in gravy" or "I know you are but what am I." LOL

Or 'Darwinian evolution applies to the universe as a whole,' which is essentially attempting to apply biology to stars and planets. And you wonder why I used the word "retarded" to describe it?

Just because you reply line by line doesn't make you intellectual like Bryan.

Non-sequitur, and ad hominem. Not even worth addressing.

Claiming victory because a theory doesn't apply where it was never meant to is retarded, end of story. Only an ignoramus would do that.

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Plants and animals get their energy from an outside energy source, it doesn't come from within themselves.  Their energy comes from the sun.  What is the outside source of energy for the univese Keith?  If their is no outside source, it is losing energy and it is running down.  It will one day reach uniform temperature left to itself.  My point was that those that believe in the "big bang" or apply gradualism to the univese run into problems with natural laws.

And our point is that you don't have a freaking clue about any of this. You can't just take a scientific principle and misapply it from a flawed understanding. As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
Still waiting for you or anyone to select a specific Bible prophecy which has been proven to be true.

Stop shifting the burden of proof.

Last time I checked, Jesus' tomb was still empty!

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Guest Red-Letter Edition
[/i] retarded, end of story.

Wow. I guess that settles the question of the ages, Ive been called a retard by strife! Using your style of argumentation (childlike), I'm partial to to the middle-school playground retort, "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!" LOL ;)

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Guest Red Letter Edition
This is judgmental in exactly the way that Jesus is said to have forbidden. I don't see peace in this response.

Actually, Jesus himself spoke the words recorded John 5:24. According to this verse (spoken by Jesus) anyone (and that includes you and Keith) who does not believe is condemned.

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Strife is right on the money. Eternal torment is so far beyond any sense of proportion as to make it obvious that the story just isn't true.

Either that, or the equally-hard-to-swallow proposition that God, as defined, is outright malicious. Those are really the only choices left when the concept of Hell is held up to even the slightest scrutiny.

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(I honestly don't know what happened to 2dim's post which was supposed to be here, with me replying to it. Oh well.)

The universe may easily have been always there. Of course, hearing this you'd complain about me not accepting the "God always was there" argument, and the reason for that is simple--it adds a needless variable. At least we know the universe exists--suggesting that it was always there is, however unlikely, exponentially more likely than a baseless assertion about a supreme intelligence (not to mention a supreme complexity), for which there is no evidence, being behind everything.

The Big Bang is not atheistic--just because you believe your god poofed everything into existence in six days, and that is absurd, doesn't mean that there COULDN'T be/have been A god that directly 'set off' the Big Bang. Your arrogance in thinking that the only possible god is yours is laughable, just like you.

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Last time I checked, Jesus' tomb was still empty!

Oh, really! Where is it? Is it marked?

If someone made off with a body in the middle of the night, would you expect the tomb to be filled again later?

Why am I wasting my time trying to have a discussion with people like this?

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